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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 09:20 OPnitemare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:05 Doz wrote:
I get a kick out of all of the zergs saying saying that the snipe change is necessary because it counters everything, yet post-infestor/fungal buff, they were defending the position saying it was necessary to have 1 unit from which they could get so much mileage because they have weak anti-air. Don't worry, I could probably find 10,000 quotes from various forums about this if need be.
Basically, Zerg player logic has become: I can have the infestor which is great against just about any other unit in the game, but Terrans can't have a unit that's great against just about any other unit in the game because that would make it too easy for them to beat my attacks.
Do they even realize this is how they sound? How fucking hypocritical they are? Infestor kill time vs viking: 12 seconds Care to guess what the kill time of ghosts vs a brood lord is? Cuz I'd be willing to bet its a heck of a lot less than 12 seconds. Also if you can keep the infestors away, you can stop them from landing more fungals, as you have 12 seconds or so to do so. Whereas with a Brood lord vs a ghost, the ghost can kill it within 2 seconds.
Keep in mind that the fungal can kill several vikings at the same time.
But that's not the point. Each race is different. For example: one race has free dropships, another one's are insanely beefy and can warp units and the third can heal.
You can't really do that comparison Doz.
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On February 11 2012 07:02 Doz wrote:Really it just seems like zergs bitch so fucking loud they tend to get what they want, eventually. I think the Terran action against BL/Infestor now is working to keep infestor count low via ghosts and/or sniping tech. When it comes to the fight, ghosts will have to snipe/emp infestors before magic boxing their vikings into the fight, hoping they still have some tanks and marines left to deal with the mass of zerglings/banelings. Eventually some fabulously skilled Korean will find a consistent way of making use of ravens to somehow accomplish the same thing, and a few months after that ravens will be nerfed before zergs should ever have to raise a finger of creativity towards dealing with the problem. I mean god fucking forbid they should try a roach/hydra follow up, or roach/ling, or mass nydus worming, or drop play of their own. Then once ravens are nerfed, Terrans will be forced to go early vikings to clear overlords from the map so they can begin mass drop play, after which viking build time will be increased or muta's will have their movement speed increased and zerg building armor will be increased. From there, who knows? Maybe scv's will have their mining time increased, or marines will cost 100/50 each and have their damage and fire rate reduced. I get it that the game needs to be balanced for the competitive scene, but look at this: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allOn the global ladder, where 99.9% of the playing population resides in terms of skill, it isn't until you get down to Silver league where there are a greater number of Terran players than Zerg (I'm not considering GM because it's such a small sample of people relative to the other leagues, and that's the .1% skill exception). Any coincidence? I mean how much does the race need to be nerfed before it's realized that other races can step up their own play. I still haven't seen any protoss players regularly spread their units when entering a fight, imo you had that emp coming. If you really believe people playing Terran do so because it's naturally a stronger race and will lead to easier wins, you're sadly mistaken. Does anyone who has an ounce of self worth realize how unsatisfying that would be? Anyone I've ever asked about playing Terran seriously all say it's the race with the highest skill ceiling and offers the greatest reward for reaching that ceiling. It's time to stop punishing them for playing so brilliantly and start asking others to step it up
Man you must work for Blizzard, predicting patches and what not. Why don't you just fire David Kim and just make the balance changes yourself? And while you're at it, why don't you hire all your other Terran buddies bitching and complaining about balance changes so that the game will change to what you think is right, since you obviously know more about the way the game should be played than the current devs.
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Awesome patch, good nerf for Terran, which they needed. Makes me happy :D
I'm most happy for the MULE change, it was addressed on some tournament, now I'm glad it's addressed in ladder too. Most of the time, third base for Terran meant death if it was the gold.
EDIT : And well, Terran's tears are priceless :D
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On February 11 2012 09:23 ma70 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:21 RedBack wrote:
So Terran nerfs and protoss buffs.... sounds like a standard patch......... sigh Protoss getting buffed is far from standard.
Not that it matters really, but Protoss have received at least one buff in each of the last three updates to the game with several others coming before that.
Also take into consideration the Blue Flame Nerf, EMP nerf and Infestor nerfs all of which benefit Protoss players immensly.
He's more right than wrong really.
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I still think Mules need a cool down, but good changes regardless--maybe the ghost change is a bit extreme.
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On February 11 2012 09:19 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:13 Diomedes7 wrote:
There is nothing at all "retarded" with those comparisons. Those casters are commonly regarded as equivalent for each of the races because of similar cost and tech.
It's still incorrect to regard them as isolated variables. The reason High Templar are so good is that they're the only late-game caster for Protoss. That's the same reason Infestors are so good. Ghosts are incredibly good in late-game TvZ, as are Ravens. The problem is that people only treat units in terms of "damage done," when there's a whole concept of controlling game-flow beneath it. Getting ravens denies burrowed baneling play; HUGE win. Getting ravens denies late-game DTs, helping your marine production and conservation when it comes down to small engagements where your marines are the first thing getting roasted. Getting ravens forces more careful positioning of your opponent's units, and if you get the perfect HSM because Zerg made a single mistake in positioning, it could essentially be GG (as is the case with nukes). Making mistakes NEEDS to be punished, and with late-game snipe as powerful as it is, that just wasn't happening with Terrans.
Yea but I mean, Ravens are really hard to use properly up to a point where I would say they are just shit.
Auto Turrets are stupid and not usable in a realistic head on fight because of cast range and building placement requirement. Plus they suck. I really don't see how auto turrets can still be how they are. All you can do with them is harass mineral lines, and even there its just a matter of "oh, okay, I'll move my workers away then I guess" and you are relying on the stupidity of your opponent to kill something. I could theoretically see them as some kind of static base defense against harassment because of their long duration? But for something like that they are neither durable or strong enough I think and your ravens will be out of energy all the time.
PDD are good, but since they can't kill broodlings anymore they lost a lot of value against zerg.
HSM is pretty much suicide because of cast range with a "man if he doesn't see me I won't lose my 100/200 raven and the 150/150 upgrade might be TOTALLY worth it!"-effect. I don't say its useless, I think it might be a great answer at some day in the future. But I haven't seen it yet in TvZ.
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10 clicks and 19 clicks to kill broods and ultras..... and what's the point of +25 Psionic? so you can kill a zealot in 3 shots? ghosts aren't that good against ultra tbh......its good against broodlords.
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On February 11 2012 09:23 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:18 UBavarice wrote:
Fucking great. This is was snipe is supposed to be about: Countering HT:s, not slaughtering a maxed zerg army. WD Blizz! Except Ghosts already have a better anti-caster spell in EMP. Having Snipe being designed as an anti-caster weapon only is totally pointless and redundant. I read a good idea just now on the battle.net forums. Keep snipe's damage the same but have it do half damage to Massive. That would accomplish Blizzard's goal of making it less powerful against Zerg tier 3 but keep its viability against the rest of the units rather than gutting the spell against everything except HTs, and Infestors which you would normally just EMP in the first place.
Half damage is too hard. Upthread somewhere was a suggestion that snipe be affected by armor, as in roughly -2 per armor. It would make ultras much more viable, but with proper air carapace upgrades BLs aren't insti-sniped either.
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On February 11 2012 09:29 HellionDrop wrote:
10 clicks and 19 clicks to kill broods and ultras..... and what's the point of +25 Psionic? so you can kill a zealot in 3 shots? ghosts aren't that good against ultra tbh......its good against broodlords.
Zealots aren't psionic.
The only Psionic units in the game are casters and Archons.
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On February 11 2012 09:20 OPnitemare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:05 Doz wrote:
I get a kick out of all of the zergs saying saying that the snipe change is necessary because it counters everything, yet post-infestor/fungal buff, they were defending the position saying it was necessary to have 1 unit from which they could get so much mileage because they have weak anti-air. Don't worry, I could probably find 10,000 quotes from various forums about this if need be.
Basically, Zerg player logic has become: I can have the infestor which is great against just about any other unit in the game, but Terrans can't have a unit that's great against just about any other unit in the game because that would make it too easy for them to beat my attacks.
Do they even realize this is how they sound? How fucking hypocritical they are? Infestor kill time vs viking: 12 seconds Care to guess what the kill time of ghosts vs a brood lord is? Cuz I'd be willing to bet its a heck of a lot less than 12 seconds. Also if you can keep the infestors away, you can stop them from landing more fungals, as you have 12 seconds or so to do so. Whereas with a Brood lord vs a ghost, the ghost can kill it within 2 seconds.
Fugal growth is an aoe spell, ergo single infestor kill time vs group of vikings: 12 seconds.
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On February 11 2012 09:30 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:29 HellionDrop wrote:
10 clicks and 19 clicks to kill broods and ultras..... and what's the point of +25 Psionic? so you can kill a zealot in 3 shots? ghosts aren't that good against ultra tbh......its good against broodlords. Zealots aren't psionic. The only Psionic units in the game are casters and Archons.
Still can't 1 shot HTs..... but atleast I can 2 shot infestors. that's a plus.
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Not liking their approach to snipe. Just changing the damage seems a bit lazy, and makes it a bit redundant having it do +dmg to psionic since the psionic units you're using it vs. already get countered by EMP. They could have made it cost more energy, or added a cool down or some other thing. If it has to be just a straight damage nerf do it in a smaller amount then test it and see what difference it makes, not reduce it by 20 damage and scare terrans from ever building a ghost again ._.
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GG late game TvZ is completely dead. I have no idea why Ghosts would be considered too good agianst Ultras and Broods. I watch a LOT of pro games, and Terran does NOT "automatically win" or have a ridiculously high chance to win once they get a specific amount of Ghosts in TvZ. In fact from the way I see it, it's still relatively even, mainly because of the sheer amount of time it takes to use snipe to kill high hp units (Broods and Ultras).
Terran already has trouble playing in the late game against P, now we can't win late game versus Zerg too? Very, very bad game design. Yes, overall the game may still be moving closer to 50% win ratios, but that doesn't say ANYTHING when different races have considerably higher or lower chances to win at different points of the game.
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I love this patch. The fleet beacon phoenix range upgrade puts a timer on the mutas so zerg can't just keep making them all game long until the protoss dies.
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On February 11 2012 09:29 Boiler Bandsman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2012 09:18 UBavarice wrote:
Fucking great. This is was snipe is supposed to be about: Countering HT:s, not slaughtering a maxed zerg army. WD Blizz! Except Ghosts already have a better anti-caster spell in EMP. Having Snipe being designed as an anti-caster weapon only is totally pointless and redundant. I read a good idea just now on the battle.net forums. Keep snipe's damage the same but have it do half damage to Massive. That would accomplish Blizzard's goal of making it less powerful against Zerg tier 3 but keep its viability against the rest of the units rather than gutting the spell against everything except HTs, and Infestors which you would normally just EMP in the first place. Half damage is too hard. Upthread somewhere was a suggestion that snipe be affected by armor, as in roughly -2 per armor. It would make ultras much more viable, but with proper air carapace upgrades BLs aren't insti-sniped either.
My point is that Blizzard has many more options if they want to nerf snipe against Zerg tier 3 rather than just gutting the damage of the spell in half overall but giving it a meaningless boost against Psionic.
They've isolated a specific scenario where the spell is too good and they are gutting its usefulness in EVERY situation with this change. That's taking a problem that requires a scalpel and using a chainsaw instead.
Lowering Snipe's damage vs massive by any amount and keeping the damage it does otherwise the same would solve the problem they want to solve and keep the spell viable everywhere else.
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The hell.... another protoss buff when they are debatably the strongest race right now?
Sigh, more terran nerfs, sad.
I find it kind of odd that they would decide to add more range to Phoenix when they seem to do just fine if you play right. (Ro16 Nestea vs Genius). Also, it feels that ghosts are just a useless now since they will do bad against most things that zerg has. I mean, if they actually get a massive tech switch off in ZvT, the Terran needs to have guessed it or just die.
We'll see I guess, at least there's still the scroll trick....
User was temp banned for this post.
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One reason I stopped laddering was the constant nerfs to Terran. I play Starcraft 2 for fun and having to adapt to changes is not fun.
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Really nice to see Blizzard taking massive leaps in the right direction. Fantastic patch, fantastic map pool. Season 6 is looking good.
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On February 11 2012 09:31 Scila wrote:
GG late game TvZ is completely dead. I have no idea why Ghosts would be considered too good agianst Ultras and Broods. I watch a LOT of pro games, and Terran does NOT "automatically win" or have a ridiculously high chance to win once they get a specific amount of Ghosts. In fact from the way I see it, it's still relatively even, mainly because of the sheer amount of time it takes to use snipe to kill high hp units (Broods and Ultras). Terran already has trouble playing in the late game against P, now we can't win late game versus Zerg too? Very, very bad game design.
I have realized this and have begun doing timing attacks which almost makes me win every single time. Terran early to mid game is very strong and can be exploited. But I think that if T pro players start to all-in again another bunker nerf will come. 
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On February 11 2012 09:27 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:23 ma70 wrote:On February 11 2012 09:21 RedBack wrote:
So Terran nerfs and protoss buffs.... sounds like a standard patch......... sigh Protoss getting buffed is far from standard. Not that it matters really, but Protoss have received at least one buff in each of the last three updates to the game with several others coming before that. Also take into consideration the Blue Flame Nerf, EMP nerf and Infestor nerfs all of which benefit Protoss players immensly. He's more right than wrong really.
Take em all back and give us VR that do 41 DPS and can catch vikings again.
What I mean to say is all nerfs and buffs are not created equal.
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EPT
