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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 09:35 Iluvatarr wrote:
"But that's not the point. Each race is different. For example: one race has free dropships, another one's are insanely beefy and can warp units and the third can heal."
Wait a second. Ok insanely beefy and can warp in units, Protoss, can heal, Terran, free.....? Not sure which race you're thinking of but Zerg's dropships aren't free. First, of all they are our SUPPLY DEPOTS so when we send them in to drop and they die, we can get supply blocked and have to wait to build anything else until they are replenished. Second, they cost larva so everyone we make is either a worker or an army unit that doesn't get made. Third, Overlord speed is 100/100 and takes 60 seconds to research, and the actual drop ability is 200/200 and takes 130 seconds to research. Just FYI, medivacs are 100/100 and take 42 seconds to build and warp prisms are 200/0 and take 50 seconds to build. So Zerg "dropships" aren't free. In fact, they are the most expensive.
It makes me weep when people talk about cost in this explicit, black-and-white way. Cost is not the price you see of the thing itself. Drop overlords don't cost 100+150/150+200/200, any more than concussive shell Marauders cost 150/75 or stim/CS marines cost 250/200 apiece. The advantage of overlord drops is that they are cheap once you get the tech, and they do not cost supply. Overlords do cost larvae, and if they are sniped, you will have to invest additional larvae into making more overlords (if you didn't do that before), but that is essentially like any other Zerg unit, when used correctly. If you don't want to spend additional larvae on extra overlords for drops, you have to take a supply block when your overlord drops get sniped. The real disadvantage is not that losing overlords supply blocks you, but that it takes a large, one-time investment to get drops, and there is a rather lengthy period for which that money is not yours, but the tech is still researching, and also that even with speed overlords are slower than medivacs and warp prisms. But when you take into account that Zerg can Nydus, it's OK to me that drops are slightly worse.
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United States360 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:22 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:11 Lemonerer wrote:
anyone can figure out if its still 2 snipes for HT and 3 for zealot ? also what else does the snipe change affect (infestors? marauders?) It's 6 for a zealot now, 2 for a HT, 2 for an infestor (down from 3 with regen), 5 for marauder.
6 sniper shots = 25*6 = 150 energy to kill 1 zealot
hmm
LMAO
Those battle hellions are looking pretty good right now.
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the only cost that matters is opportunity cost.
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On February 11 2012 09:31 Scila wrote:
GG late game TvZ is completely dead. I have no idea why Ghosts would be considered too good agianst Ultras and Broods. I watch a LOT of pro games, and Terran does NOT "automatically win" or have a ridiculously high chance to win once they get a specific amount of Ghosts in TvZ. In fact from the way I see it, it's still relatively even, mainly because of the sheer amount of time it takes to use snipe to kill high hp units (Broods and Ultras).
Terran already has trouble playing in the late game against P, now we can't win late game versus Zerg too? Very, very bad game design. Yes, overall the game may still be moving closer to 50% win ratios, but that doesn't say ANYTHING when different races have considerably higher or lower chances to win at different points of the game.
Ghosts are the only way I've ever seen a terran beat it and it 50/50. Before terran discovered they had Ghosts they would just get rolled.
Many marines? broods and fungel takes care of that.
Think you're gonna get vikings to take out the broods? Nope. Fungel and corruptors take care of that.
Thors? Don't make be laugh. They get eaten alive by broodlings.
Ghosts where only counter to BL/infestor/corruptor.
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On February 11 2012 09:33 Darknat wrote:
One reason I stopped laddering was the constant nerfs to Terran. I play Starcraft 2 for fun and having to adapt to changes is not fun.
Life must be hard for you not being able to adapt to certain things in life. I don't think this will affect your gameplay in sc2 very much if you are just playing for fun.
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On February 11 2012 09:35 Iluvatarr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:26 XiGua wrote:On February 11 2012 09:20 OPnitemare wrote:On February 11 2012 08:05 Doz wrote:
I get a kick out of all of the zergs saying saying that the snipe change is necessary because it counters everything, yet post-infestor/fungal buff, they were defending the position saying it was necessary to have 1 unit from which they could get so much mileage because they have weak anti-air. Don't worry, I could probably find 10,000 quotes from various forums about this if need be.
Basically, Zerg player logic has become: I can have the infestor which is great against just about any other unit in the game, but Terrans can't have a unit that's great against just about any other unit in the game because that would make it too easy for them to beat my attacks.
Do they even realize this is how they sound? How fucking hypocritical they are? Infestor kill time vs viking: 12 seconds Care to guess what the kill time of ghosts vs a brood lord is? Cuz I'd be willing to bet its a heck of a lot less than 12 seconds. Also if you can keep the infestors away, you can stop them from landing more fungals, as you have 12 seconds or so to do so. Whereas with a Brood lord vs a ghost, the ghost can kill it within 2 seconds. Keep in mind that the fungal can kill several vikings at the same time. But that's not the point. Each race is different. For example: one race has free dropships, another one's are insanely beefy and can warp units and the third can heal. You can't really do that comparison Doz. "But that's not the point. Each race is different. For example: one race has free dropships, another one's are insanely beefy and can warp units and the third can heal." Wait a second. Ok insanely beefy and can warp in units, Protoss, can heal, Terran, free.....? Not sure which race you're thinking of but Zerg's dropships aren't free. First, of all they are our SUPPLY DEPOTS so when we send them in to drop and they die, we can get supply blocked and have to wait to build anything else until they are replenished. Second, they cost larva so everyone we make is either a worker or an army unit that doesn't get made. Third, Overlord speed is 100/100 and takes 60 seconds to research, and the actual drop ability is 200/200 and takes 130 seconds to research. Just FYI, medivacs are 100/100 and take 42 seconds to build and warp prisms are 200/0 and take 50 seconds to build. So Zerg "dropships" aren't free. In fact, they are the most expensive.
You need to apply the same principles to Terran and Protoss then - consider that medivacs and warp prisms not only cost infrastructure (starport+reactor/robo facility), but time as well - every medivac built is one less viking and every warp prism is time taken out of building colo/immortals.
When making these comparisons, try to think "What would Terran be building if he could make medivacs out of his command centre?"
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snipe 2 shot sentries? blizzard lost the plot.
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On February 11 2012 09:48 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:31 Scila wrote:
GG late game TvZ is completely dead. I have no idea why Ghosts would be considered too good agianst Ultras and Broods. I watch a LOT of pro games, and Terran does NOT "automatically win" or have a ridiculously high chance to win once they get a specific amount of Ghosts in TvZ. In fact from the way I see it, it's still relatively even, mainly because of the sheer amount of time it takes to use snipe to kill high hp units (Broods and Ultras).
Terran already has trouble playing in the late game against P, now we can't win late game versus Zerg too? Very, very bad game design. Yes, overall the game may still be moving closer to 50% win ratios, but that doesn't say ANYTHING when different races have considerably higher or lower chances to win at different points of the game. Ghosts are the only way I've ever seen a terran beat it and it 50/50. Before terran discovered they had Ghosts they would just get rolled. Many marines? broods and fungel takes care of that. Think you're gonna get vikings to take out the broods? Nope. Fungel and corruptors take care of that. Thors? Don't make be laugh. They get eaten alive by broodlings. Ghosts where only counter to BL/infestor/corruptor.
To be fair they aren't taking away Ghosts completely they are just nerfing Ghosts capability to counter the entire tier 3 deathball all by themselves.
Which is why I'm not totally against the change for its intended purpose but I am very against how they are going about accomplishing it.
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Some Snipe Numbers:
Protoss:
Zealots: now 6 snipes up from 4
High Templar: 2 no change.
Terran:
SCV: 2 up from 1
Marauders: now 5 snipes up from 3
Marine (no combat): now 2 up from 1
Marine (combat): now 3 up from 2
Ghost: 2 down from 3
Reaper: 2 no change
Zerg: (does not include regen)
Larva: 1 no change
Drone: 2 up from 1
Ling: 2 up from 1
Queen: 4 no change (Queens are Psionic)
Roach: 6 up from 3
Baneling: 2 up from 1
Hydralisk: 4 up from 2
Infestor: 2 no change.
Mutalisk: 5 up from 3
Corruptor: 8 up from 5
and from the post:
Ultralisk: 19 up from 11
Broodlord: 10 up from 6
Which seems super-harsh, at best they've kept snipe the same against casters, and now terrible against anything else.
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Ghosts haven't been castrated. You just need to use them smarter as opposed to what was the "herp derp hold R and scroll through BLs" method that made ZvT so hard in the late game. Snipes still do crazy amounts of damage, but now you just need to use them right, i.e. sniping the queens first, then hitting the broods to soften them up for vikings and marines.
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On February 11 2012 09:49 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
snipe 2 shot sentries? blizzard lost the plot.
You can't snipe sentries! They're not a biological unit.
Sheesh.
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Infestor: 2 no change. It used to be 3 since zerg units regenerate 1 health instantly.
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On February 11 2012 09:49 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
snipe 2 shot sentries? blizzard lost the plot.
Can you actually snipe sentries?
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On February 11 2012 09:50 Dingobloo wrote:
Some Snipe Numbers:
Protoss:
Zealots: now 6 snipes up from 4
High Templar: 2 no change.
Terran:
Marauders: now 5 snipes up from 3
Marine (no combat): now 2 up from 1
Marine (combat): now 3 up from 2
Ghost: 2 down from 3
Zerg: (does not include regen)
Ling: 2 up from 1
Roach: 6 up from 3
Baneling: 2 up from 1
Hydralisk: 4 up from 2
Infestor: 2 no change.
Mutalisk: 5 up from 3
Corruptor: 8 up from 5
and from the post:
Ultralisk: 19 up from 11
Broodlord: 10 up from 6
Which seems super-harsh, at best they've kept snipe the same against casters, and now terrible against anything else.
All the more reason to just nerf Snipe's damage vs Massive units and call it a day.
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Why is everyone acting as thought his makes Ghosts less viable in TvZ? They will still fit into a late game Terran army composition very well, as they still have EMP to take down Infestors, snipe still does enough damage to finish off injured Broodlords or Ultralisks and Infestors, and Ghosts regular attack does insane damage vs lings anyway.
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Please Blizzard don't forget to nerf Terran more and every time. Oh wait this is what Blizzard does... No comment. This is no longer funny.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 11 2012 09:16 MrMotionPicture wrote:
I wonder if with the ghost nerf, pros will move back to Vikings to counter Broodlords? I'm curious to see how this plays out!
Do you even play this game? Why do you have to wonder how it will play out. Terran will see broodlords, he either gets vikings or ghosts. Terran goes viking and all his vikings get fungaled and die or get cleaned up by corrupts, which happens to be better than vikings. Terran goes ghost and tries to snipe broodlords but the broodlords dont die for some reason after spamming snipes.
Terrans will have to play more like MMA against zergs instead of the safe MVP style. I could see MVP struggling against zergs late game now.
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Corruptors are NOT more powerful than vikings. They are 1.5x as expensive, and cannot beat Vikings in large, equal numbers (equal in terms of cost, so 3 vikings to 2 corruptors) w/o either Corruption or Fungal, which requires additional APM (a scarce asset in a late-game engagement).
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EPT
