The upgrade makes Phoenixes counter Mutas HARD. So once you get that and have a few Phoenixes and the upgrade you are basically immune to Mutas. So Zergs can't go Mass Muta off ~2 base any more. Which is what Blizzard wanted. Sudden Tech switches into Mutas are still as dangerous. And that's all pretty nice.
My problem is, however, now that no one will go for Mass Mutas right from the start, the upgrade is instantly useless. The only use it seems to have is to counter 1 specific strategy REALLY HARD. So Zergs won't do that strat any more. So Protosses won't get that upgrade.
The meta game result of this upgrade seems fine to me, but the way Blizzard tried to solve this problem sounds like really wonky game design.
On February 11 2012 04:13 Edahspmal wrote: I think that listening to the community is a good and bad thing. It's definitely good that they are making changes and listening to feedback, but to be honest we complain and bitch way too stubbornly and too often. It's dangerous if they make changes based on how much people are complaining because that only positively reinforces the idea that if you only cry enough, they will change the game instead of you having to overcome an obstacle.
just look at wow if you want to see what listening to a community does.
Actually at MMO listening to the majority is better overall, as for here, i highly agree with you
End-game content was turned to crap. But anyway, waht bother me is that atm no balance patch was needed. They just need the game to evolve by itself and not by bullshit patches.
Ye your right, they destroyed end game raiding, but 90% of the players never seen it before any nerfs, in the long run that what matter for them
oh i'm fine if you consider they did it to please the crowd. But for sc2 where we (on TL) want balance for the best, listening to the community is utterly retarded.
I don't think the big problem is the ghost nerf, I think the problem is the lack of other buffs. Terran simply needs to be able to build a better army that doesn't get countered so easy. Battlehellions and Warhounds seem like very good additions, but do we really have to wait for HotS?
On February 11 2012 03:54 RogerChillingworth wrote:
On February 11 2012 03:53 Zeetox wrote: Nerf Terran more. Now what.... I make Vikings to counter Brood Lords, then Zerg switches to Ultra and I'm f'd up... Looks like David Kim is playing Zerg :F
make a maruader or two. you'll have 3/3 by then, to boot.
Hahahaha, you have some really strong marauder micro, one or 2 marauders and you will be fine? pls post some replay to teach us
He is sarcastic, because there is nothing to say here, TvZ lategame is just fucked up now..
Micro and nothing will die to ultras
Nothing will kill the ultras either.
what lol. Terran doesn't need ghosts to kill Ultra's. I see mass ultra's die to mass bio + tanks more then with ghosts.
I know the complaining is only natural like every other patch but Terran will be fine, like the other nerfs they will still be top race in the game or it'l balance itself out. Anyone who thinks Terran will now become UP is just complaining for the sake of it. Ghost/gold change were needed really badly as it made making tier 3 units as zerg not even doable if he had ghosts due to how fast everything died.
CPM: Good Change; APM meant nothing and APM was a good way to show self improvement, especially at lower levels
MULE/Gold change: It's OK. Better than nothing, but zerg can still abuse golds that have no rocks on them by FEing there versus a protoss.
Snipe: Good change. Idk about the numbers, maybe it's too much of a nerf, maybe it should have only reduced damge versus massive units, idk, but something needed to be done; 1 cheap(ish) easily massed unit destryoing both hive options easily was too much.
Phoenix: Retarded change. Sure, mutas were hard to deal with, and righfully so (zerg is putting a lot of gas into that basket). They were manageable, however. This change is going to make it so you just can't open mutas, because you're gambling he didn't open with a stargate opening. This is also going to make the mass mutalisk strategy pretty much not an option (since phoni will be so strong now), which is also bad. Almost every top zerg says this matchup is in the favor of protoss already (to the point the best zerg's in the world are openly complaining about it), I think adding a protoss buff is not only unnecessary, but potentially compounding the problem. I'm sure the change is great for lower level players, but I feel that this patch was "newbies are losing too much to mutas" rather than "mutas are too strong in ZvP" and I don't like that.
On February 11 2012 04:13 Edahspmal wrote: I think that listening to the community is a good and bad thing. It's definitely good that they are making changes and listening to feedback, but to be honest we complain and bitch way too stubbornly and too often. It's dangerous if they make changes based on how much people are complaining because that only positively reinforces the idea that if you only cry enough, they will change the game instead of you having to overcome an obstacle.
just look at wow if you want to see what listening to a community does.
Actually at MMO listening to the majority is better overall, as for here, i highly agree with you
End-game content was turned to crap. But anyway, waht bother me is that atm no balance patch was needed. They just need the game to evolve by itself and not by bullshit patches.
Ye your right, they destroyed end game raiding, but 90% of the players never seen it before any nerfs, in the long run that what matter for them
oh i'm fine if you consider they did it to please the crowd. But for sc2 where we (on TL) want balance for the best, listening to the community is utterly retarded.
Just highlighting some highlights from this thread, this is hillarious, please guys continue.
nice highlighting the same post twice..... besides that, it's still less balance whine from terrans in this thread then the whine in any thread when protoss got nerfed xD
For me this patch actually means that I have to decide every TvZ in the midgame, just like my TvPs. I don't know if that's imbalanced or not but I don't see a possibility of Terran countering Zerg Tech switches now, the same way that Terran can't counter 20+ Gateway reproduction in TvP. It won't change that much of my games, since almost every of my games is decided between 8 and 14 minutes (blizzard time).
Btw. on the Phoenix patch: does Protoss really need a buff against mutas? I mean look at Genius against Nestea, there is a lot of stuff protoss can do to win against mutas. Of course not every Diamond-league toss knows how to do it, but the high-level protoss players did figure it out, so I think the muta-problem would be fixed by the players. I really don't think it needs an intervention from Blizzard's side.
On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote: Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races?
Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, they're heads explode.
How about they address the T early game, and not nerf the already weak T late game? These arguments aren't stemming from the fact that T will suddenly lose more - I'd argue that they won't. They will just cheese more, and the win ratios will stay the same.
Seriously, half of the posts in this thread are worrying about the quality of TvZ games, yet you still post like this? I'm sure most Terrans will be absolutely fine with nerfs in the early game, as long as the late game can be sustained on even footing with Zergs.
Unfortunately, it seems like Blizzard is content with forcing Terrans to be the cheesing race until HoTS at the earliest.
I would happily accept a T buff lategame if there was a T nerf early game
delicate though. immortal and voidray all-ins are pretty strong against terran. what nerf/buff would you suggest? I would personaly like to see a little love for the raven.
I think Beastyqt posted earlier about buffing the Raven. Buffing hunter seeker damage and the Raven's movement speed would be a nice start.
Seeker missile damage is certainly not the problem
I think seeker should come pre-researched OR raven should cost less gas. Raven movement speed could be interesting. I think a range upgrade for raven abilities could maybe be justified.
On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote: To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf. Grubby: Good changes Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious. Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran. TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core. Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone. Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick* Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right?
lol, you make a summary kind of post where you are completly biased, I don't even.. :DD
On February 11 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote: range upgrade should be on the cyber core
Mmm, not sure about that. Maybe, on cyber-core but requiring an additional tech structure. Otherwise, I think it would become too strong. I think having the upgrade on the fleet beacon makes sence, but might be too high on the tech tree. I think it will be viable none-the-less however, and will require more of an intent to go down that path than just an additional thing to get because it's there.
However, I do like all of the changes in the path. There are not that many and they all seem to be good changes. Glad to see the mule and snipe get looked at, and a soft touch given to protoss in the form of an upgrade, as well as Zerg staying the same. I am excited to see how it pans out.
Thank god I quit SC2 a while ago, these terran nerfs are brutal. MULE nerfs were coming (late actually), but the ghost nerf... We're having a hard time with protoss late game right now, zerg late game is going to be even harder with the snipe nerf. No idea how we're going to deal with Brood Lord/Ultras now, we have no unit that can deal with both of them now.
On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote: Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races?
Is it just me or does it seem like zerg and protoss won't be happy unless... well ever actually.
A zerg or protoss whining has more credibility than a terran whining, for some reason.
Probably because Terran has consistently been the best race in the game since... the beta? >.>
Terran is whining about these nerfs, but they're the ones who have been the best of the best. Give the other races a chance to win some GSLs for crying out loud. Let's see some 50-50 win percentages on the race vs. race graphs!
Terran keeps getting nerfed, and they've still been winning more frequently. That doesn't mean you stop nerfing them or stop pointing out the flaws that still exist. You need to do what it takes to achieve balance.
Alright, thank you for a civilized response. And I completely understand where you are coming from, terran does have overpowered tactics and characteristics. But does this stop other races from having overpowered tactics and characteristics? Of course not.
For instance, I have always had problems with banelings (yeah I'm a shit player). And let's just say that they are actually are. If I point that out, people usually just respond with LOL JUST USE TEH OP MULES or some such shit. Maybe MULEs are OP, but does that make a difference on the balance of banelings? Absolutely not.
People need to stop assuming that terran players always are just focused on winning with all-ins and all that, and actually want to have fun as well. Other races have OP units as well, and terran has it's UP units. Maybe that's why they aren't used as much.... (*cough* reapers, ravens, BCs *cough*)
Balance should still be done to races that OP, to buff the components of that race that are UP. That's pretty much my point.
On February 11 2012 04:21 unix04 wrote: I think blizzard should reconsider snipe damage mod. Instead of making snipe 25 damage with +25 to psionic (im guessing this means all protoss 'bio' units), they should add a damage modifier to massive units that can be sniped to -15. This way, using ghosts to one snipe workers/marines/etc are still in play. With +25 to psionic only, it really reduces snipe to be used against high templar (and rarely do we see mass sniping of zealots).
Templar, sentries, other ghost, warp prisms and infestors are psionic. Everyone else will have to be killed with good, old fashion damage.
On February 11 2012 04:03 fishinguy wrote: The cycle of whining and nerfs continue, terran will adapt noobs will whine more.
Story of SC2 so far
infestor buff then nerf ? not like blizz is smart ...
Nony once talked about this on sotg, blizzard actually does this very smartly by buffing a unit (maybe even too much) to make sure people use it a lot (which kinda happened with the infestor which was heavily underused before the buff) and then they can still nerf it to make it perfectly balanced.
You guys are all just mad that the game is starting to be actually balanced and terran is no longer by far the strongest race. You suck at tvp now because you were so used to emp stim-a-move roflstomp protoss before the emp nerf and now you can't just build ghost to kill everything tvz lategame. As terran becomes less OP it also becomes more skillful to play, and especially in lower leagues (aka what 90% of the people on tl are in) skill is something everyone lacks so a lot of people are having a hard time as their race is not as easy as it used to be. Also I can't believe that you guys don't have the skills to play terran right is even a valid argument, unless you love winning (in which case you should play another game tbh) you probably play starcraft because you love the challenge it gives you to push yourself and improve, if your skills aren't enough (in your eyes) to play terran right then get of these forums, start practicing, and actually get better.
Takes a little bit more skill than the toss version which is just A move, no need for anything else . Making the game a challenge by making phoenixes have 6 range - is it too hard for toss players to micro their units? great argument right there. Zerg and toss players never tried to improve their skills they were given everything by blizzard so please dont be hypocrites and tell us terran players to practice and improve our skills, and for the record toss is a lot easier to play at lower leagues than terran is.
On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote: To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf. Grubby: Good changes Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious. Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran. TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core. Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone. Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick* Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right?
Well from the pros you cited that I read (TLO, iNcontroL, Beastyqt), I think you're spot on, but I'm pretty sure that the Zergs and Protosses (I'm a Protoss) are rather happy with the changes. We think they're just right. They're not huuuuuge buffs- rather scalpel changes as opposed to axe changes. They're called for as well. And I don't think I've heard much Zerg whine either against the small Phoenix upgrade. It's all Terrans who think that they're doomed. (They seem to think this every time they get nerfed, and yet they're still the best race... interesting...) They're jumping the gun on this, instead of talking about how they're going to adapt. I predict that in the first month or two after the patch, their win percentages drop a bit (as always does after nerfs), and then the metagame gets adjusted and it gets evened out again.
Did everyone forget that they reduced the radius of EMP? Ghosts are already weakened against infestors because they are so damn big. Honestly in TvZ Snipe was the only remaining feature of the ghost that made them worth building late game.
The reason ghosts are needed is because you only need about 8 of them to get the job done with marines against a fair number of ultras, tech switching EVERY reactor to a tech lab to get enough marauders creates the most braindead tech switch to mass ling or broodlord, because every marauder after the ultralisks are gone is wasted supply.
People don't seem to complain about storm as much, even though 2 decent storms will completely win a game for protoss. Ghosts take a lot of patience and timing to be effective with, why would you start slowly taking that away?
Sure they may be slightly OP, but I have a far bigger issue with the fact that thors are the borderline worst unit in the game unless massed, and even then they are suspect. Not to mention the fact that protoss end game is unbelievably retarded. The game has blatant issues, but im sorry, late game terran was not one of them.
On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote: To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf. Grubby: Good changes Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious. Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran. TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core. Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone. Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick* Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right?
I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time.
Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc.
EPT
. Making the game a challenge by making phoenixes have 6 range - is it too hard for toss players to micro their units? great argument right there. Zerg and toss players never tried to improve their skills they were given everything by blizzard so please dont be hypocrites and tell us terran players to practice and improve our skills, and for the record toss is a lot easier to play at lower leagues than terran is. 
