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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 04:24 Namu wrote:
Thank god I quit SC2 a while ago, these terran nerfs are brutal.
MULE nerfs were coming (late actually), but the ghost nerf...
We're having a hard time with protoss late game right now, zerg late game is going to be even harder with the snipe nerf.
No idea how we're going to deal with Brood Lord/Ultras now, we have no unit that can deal with both of them now.
First of all, how would the ghost change affect TvP at all?
More importantly: "we have no unit that can deal with both of them now" is just... that's the whole point, why the hell should one unit counter both the Tier 3 Zerg units?
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On February 11 2012 04:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? Well from the pros you cited that I read (TLO, iNcontroL, Beastyqt), I think you're spot on, but I'm pretty sure that the Zergs and Protosses (I'm a Protoss) are rather happy with the changes. We think they're just right. They're not huuuuuge buffs- rather scalpel changes as opposed to axe changes. They're called for as well. And I don't think I've heard much Zerg whine either against the small Phoenix upgrade. It's all Terrans who think that they're doomed. (They seem to think this every time they get nerfed, and yet they're still the best race... interesting...) They're jumping the gun on this, instead of talking about how they're going to adapt. I predict that in the first month or two after the patch, their win percentages drop a bit (as always does after nerfs), and then the metagame gets adjusted and it gets evened out again.
They are the best race. In Korea
Outside korea... not so much.
First of all, how would the ghost change affect TvP at all?
More importantly: "we have no unit that can deal with both of them now" is just... that's the whole point, why the hell should one unit counter both the Tier 3 Zerg units?
Good terrans were starting to snipe zealots after they used up their EMP, it was nice and a good way to deal with the mass zealot. It made TvP lategame a bit more manageable, not so much anymore. Terran will be fine, in Korea. Outside nothing will be won anymore really. It's going to be rediculous hard TvZ lategame to predict what tech patch zerg is choosing, whento make marauders, when not to, etc.
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Makes sense, since Blizzard seems to be balancing WoL Terran around the idea of "win/gain a significant advantage before the 20 minute mark or lose the game" in TvP. May as well line up TvZ along the same thinking, for a more homogenous experience across match ups and to give Z a bit better overall win % vs. Terran.
The only thing I'm concerned about is why Blizzard feels an excessively high early-mid game Terran win % and excessively low late game Terran win % is a good way to design Terran in WoL. Wouldn't it be better to target a ~50% win rate at all points in the game, rather than just ~50% overall average? :c Or is it rather that they feel the design is what it is for WoL, and they're looking to change how races play out in HotS (i.e. good mech changes for T mid/late game)?
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Diamond terrans are adorable 
User was temp banned for this post.
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Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
Change it to 45 but - 15 to Massive? Would make more sense.
I mean just 25 to marines and zealots? I might aswell auto attack and save the energy
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:24 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:14 Garmer wrote:
now add a spell that change BL to Psyonic That would've been the biggest facepalm patch note yet  Not to mention that it wouldn't make sense biologically
Where do brood-lings come from? Magic dude, magic. It's psyonic.
I don't think the snipe can be changed that hard, I don't know how terran will deal with transitions from zerg
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On February 11 2012 04:23 Arisen wrote:
CPM: Good Change; APM meant nothing and APM was a good way to show self improvement, especially at lower levels
MULE/Gold change: It's OK. Better than nothing, but zerg can still abuse golds that have no rocks on them by FEing there versus a protoss.
Snipe: Good change. Idk about the numbers, maybe it's too much of a nerf, maybe it should have only reduced damge versus massive units, idk, but something needed to be done; 1 cheap(ish) easily massed unit destryoing both hive options easily was too much.
Phoenix: Retarded change. Sure, mutas were hard to deal with, and righfully so (zerg is putting a lot of gas into that basket). They were manageable, however. This change is going to make it so you just can't open mutas, because you're gambling he didn't open with a stargate opening. This is also going to make the mass mutalisk strategy pretty much not an option (since phoni will be so strong now), which is also bad. Almost every top zerg says this matchup is in the favor of protoss already (to the point the best zerg's in the world are openly complaining about it), I think adding a protoss buff is not only unnecessary, but potentially compounding the problem. I'm sure the change is great for lower level players, but I feel that this patch was "newbies are losing too much to mutas" rather than "mutas are too strong in ZvP" and I don't like that.
With the exception of the January charts clearly showing that the top zergs are winning around 60% of their ZvP matches?
Besides, the + range on the phoenixes is pretty much going to be the most expensive upgrade in the game, and no protosses can rush for it. And even then the phoenixes can still only be used safely for defense, as a single fungal will turn the battle into a massacre. On top of that corrupters do pretty well vs phoenixes..
Most protosses here are unsure if its enough tbh. So maybe its a good change?
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On February 11 2012 04:26 stormfoxSC wrote:
Makes sense, since Blizzard seems to be balancing WoL Terran around the idea of "win before the 20 minute mark or lose the game" in TvP. May as well line up TvZ along the same thinking, for a more homogenous experience across match ups and to give Z a bit better overall win % vs. Terran.
The only thing I'm concerned about is why Blizzard feels an excessively high early-mid game Terran win % and excessively low late game Terran win % is a good way to design Terran in WoL. Wouldn't it be better to target a ~50% win rate at all points in the game, rather than just ~50% overall average? :c Or is it rather that they feel the design is what it is for WoL, and they're looking to change how races play out in HotS (i.e. good mech changes for T mid/late game)?
I agree with what you're saying. Terran design is horrible due to the wondeful unit that is the marine.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I like this patch.
The MULE is an obvious change. I like that gold bases are still in the game.
The Phoenix change is interesting. Phoenixes are really good early game units, giving them any early game buffs would have made early game ZvP difficult. The change was designed to give them a mid-late game fighting chance vs critical numbers of Mutalisks. At that point, investing in a Fleet Beacon is not that much to ask. I like it.
I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
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IMHO the changes were pretty good, except the snipe one, which will make late game vZ almost unmanageable for t :S
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On February 11 2012 04:26 Nightshade_ wrote:Diamond terrans are adorable
You know, diamond terrans already want to play this game..
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On February 11 2012 04:25 Trealador wrote:
Did everyone forget that they reduced the radius of EMP? Ghosts are already weakened against infestors because they are so damn big. Honestly in TvZ Snipe was the only remaining feature of the ghost that made them worth building late game.
The reason ghosts are needed is because you only need about 8 of them to get the job done with marines against a fair number of ultras, tech switching EVERY reactor to a tech lab to get enough marauders creates the most braindead tech switch to mass ling or broodlord, because every marauder after the ultralisks are gone is wasted supply.
People don't seem to complain about storm as much, even though 2 decent storms will completely win a game for protoss. Ghosts take a lot of patience and timing to be effective with, why would you start slowly taking that away?
Sure they may be slightly OP, but I have a far bigger issue with the fact that thors are the borderline worst unit in the game unless massed, and even then they are suspect. Not to mention the fact that protoss end game is unbelievably retarded. The game has blatant issues, but im sorry, late game terran was not one of them.
I totally agree. Terran has the worst late game in all of the matchups... I really don't understand why Blizzard would want to nerf it more. I don't think TvZ will become as bad as TvP, where it becomes insanely difficult to win late game with toss on 4 base, but it's not going to help anything.
EDIT: I (and I'm assuming many other Terran players) would be far more comfortable with this nerf if mech was more viable. Whether that means waiting for HoTS or receiving a buff to compensate, it would make late game TvZ more balanced.
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Does the Phoenix have 4 range or 5 atm? Because the 2 sources (liquipedia & starcraft wiki) I've checked say it's 4...
That would make the upgrade +2 range, which is sick cool.
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Nerfing ghost by 10 damage would have been much more reasonable, it seems now that ghost aren't even a soft counter to ultras and are only a very soft counter to broods... they're 200 minerals and 100 gas and take up 2 food.. I can't see making more then a few now vs zerg, just to help soften the fungal vs viking late game
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On February 11 2012 04:23 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:15 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races? Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, they're heads explode. How about they address the T early game, and not nerf the already weak T late game? These arguments aren't stemming from the fact that T will suddenly lose more - I'd argue that they won't. They will just cheese more, and the win ratios will stay the same. Seriously, half of the posts in this thread are worrying about the quality of TvZ games, yet you still post like this? I'm sure most Terrans will be absolutely fine with nerfs in the early game, as long as the late game can be sustained on even footing with Zergs. Unfortunately, it seems like Blizzard is content with forcing Terrans to be the cheesing race until HoTS at the earliest. I would happily accept a T buff lategame if there was a T nerf early game delicate though. immortal and voidray all-ins are pretty strong against terran. what nerf/buff would you suggest? I would personaly like to see a little love for the raven. I think Beastyqt posted earlier about buffing the Raven. Buffing hunter seeker damage and the Raven's movement speed would be a nice start. Seeker missile damage is certainly not the problem I think seeker should come pre-researched OR raven should cost less gas. Raven movement speed could be interesting. I think a range upgrade for raven abilities could maybe be justified.
I think Raven movement acceleration is a big problem. The full movement speed of a Raven is the same as a regular marine, but the problem is that it takes twice as long to start after coming to a stop. The Raven will then lag behind, and is easily sniped because it can't move to safety in time.
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On February 11 2012 04:20 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:15 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races? Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, they're heads explode. How about they address the T early game, and not nerf the already weak T late game? These arguments aren't stemming from the fact that T will suddenly lose more - I'd argue that they won't. They will just cheese more, and the win ratios will stay the same. Seriously, half of the posts in this thread are worrying about the quality of TvZ games, yet you still post like this? I'm sure most Terrans will be absolutely fine with nerfs in the early game, as long as the late game can be sustained on even footing with Zergs. Unfortunately, it seems like Blizzard is content with forcing Terrans to be the cheesing race until HoTS at the earliest. I would happily accept a T buff lategame if there was a T nerf early game delicate though. immortal and voidray all-ins are pretty strong against terran. what nerf/buff would you suggest? I would personaly like to see a little love for the raven. I think Beastyqt posted earlier about buffing the Raven. Buffing hunter seeker damage and the Raven's movement speed would be a nice start.
I don't think HSM need a buff make it cost less ( 75 for example ) but give it a Cooldown of like 10-15 seconds . But 125 is too much. I mean if it would cost 75 Ravens with Energy upgrade would be instantly able to use Seeker . If its to powerful then adjust its damage but 125 Energy is just stupid.
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Do the zerg players realise that the upgrade actually requires a Fleet Bacon, a building that other than late game never ever being built? And if you want it, building + upgrade is a really heavy commitment, and as far as i know, out of all races, zerg does the techswap the easiest
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That snipe nerf is pretty ridiculous. Few Terrans are going to feel comfortable going late game when snipe is that weak.
I guess it's back to mech turtling into sky Terran for me in TvZ...
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On February 11 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:15 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races? Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, they're heads explode. How about they address the T early game, and not nerf the already weak T late game? These arguments aren't stemming from the fact that T will suddenly lose more - I'd argue that they won't. They will just cheese more, and the win ratios will stay the same. Seriously, half of the posts in this thread are worrying about the quality of TvZ games, yet you still post like this? I'm sure most Terrans will be absolutely fine with nerfs in the early game, as long as the late game can be sustained on even footing with Zergs. Unfortunately, it seems like Blizzard is content with forcing Terrans to be the cheesing race until HoTS at the earliest. I would happily accept a T buff lategame if there was a T nerf early game delicate though. immortal and voidray all-ins are pretty strong against terran. what nerf/buff would you suggest? I would personaly like to see a little love for the raven. I think Beastyqt posted earlier about buffing the Raven. Buffing hunter seeker damage and the Raven's movement speed would be a nice start. I don't think HSM need a buff make it cost less ( 75 for example ) but give it a Cooldown of like 10-15 seconds . But 125 is too much. I mean if it would cost 75 Ravens with Energy upgrade would be instantly able to use Seeker . If its to powerful then adjust its damage but 125 Energy is just stupid.
250max energy'd be an amazing solution imo.
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On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right?
Beastyqt always whines about terran being nerfed. When Korean pros, Painuser or someone reasonable gets grumpy, I will listen. He sort of reminds me of Idra in a way, but less fun to hear.
And it should read:
Protoss: What patch?
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EPT
