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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches.
mass ghost was a stupid creation. I played brood war terran and you didnt do that. It's terrible gameplay to have one unit that you produce which is clearly superior under all circumstances. Why do you think command and conquer or dune the RTS dont have competitive gaming application? one unit vs one unit battles.
mass ghost is an artifact of bad design and they're trying to fix that.
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On February 11 2012 04:21 Dyme wrote:
I really don't like the Phoenix change.
The upgrade makes Phoenixes counter Mutas HARD. So once you get that and have a few Phoenixes and the upgrade you are basically immune to Mutas. So Zergs can't go Mass Muta off ~2 base any more. Which is what Blizzard wanted. Sudden Tech switches into Mutas are still as dangerous. And that's all pretty nice.
My problem is, however, now that no one will go for Mass Mutas right from the start, the upgrade is instantly useless. The only use it seems to have is to counter 1 specific strategy REALLY HARD. So Zergs won't do that strat any more. So Protosses won't get that upgrade.
The meta game result of this upgrade seems fine to me, but the way Blizzard tried to solve this problem sounds like really wonky game design.
you do know you need a fleet becon which is insane expensive plus the upgrade...... if your going mass muta staying on 2 base it would have no effect
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On February 11 2012 04:13 neoghaleon55 wrote:
FEAR NOT TERRAN PLAYERS!!
Mass hunter seeker missiles will be the new snipe
^_^
Even if mass seeker missiles would work, whats the point? It would be nerfed in a way or another aswell.
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On February 11 2012 04:26 Nightshade_ wrote:Diamond terrans are adorable 
well they would be master protoss ~~
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When is this going live/PTR ? There is no info in the post, is this for season 6 next week ?
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On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:
I like this patch.
The MULE is an obvious change. I like that gold bases are still in the game.
The Phoenix change is interesting. Phoenixes are really good early game units, giving them any early game buffs would have made early game ZvP difficult. The change was designed to give them a mid-late game fighting chance vs critical numbers of Mutalisks. At that point, investing in a Fleet Beacon is not that much to ask. I like it.
I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Your post is just beautiful.
(im not being ironic).
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I wanna add that Zerg is only race that have no energy removal spell (unless you consider mind control into reusing other race spells and still very expensive compared to other races). This gives 80 snipes with 10 ghosts at energy capped and there is nothing zerg can do against it other than brute force the ghosts, take the hits and mass units after the slaugher. In a PvT its a matter who can shoot faster between the caster.
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To quote myself from about six months ago;
"If Blizzard just reduces EMPs range and maybe if they really want to the damage of snipe as well, maybe we can all stfu whining about terran and play the fucking game"
I can't find the actual quote but I FUCKING CALLED IT.
It initially seems like a bit of a slap in the face but...eh. Terrans have other ways to deal with the zerg T3 units but infestor/broodlord is gonna be that little bit stronger again.
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On February 11 2012 04:31 Naphal wrote:well they would be master protoss ~~
gg wp
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On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:
I like this patch.
The MULE is an obvious change. I like that gold bases are still in the game.
The Phoenix change is interesting. Phoenixes are really good early game units, giving them any early game buffs would have made early game ZvP difficult. The change was designed to give them a mid-late game fighting chance vs critical numbers of Mutalisks. At that point, investing in a Fleet Beacon is not that much to ask. I like it.
I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Problem is that emp isn't that efficient vs infestors. Radius isn't that big. Infestors aren't that small. Ghosts more expensive as well.
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HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4PPe.png)
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think it's a bit too much nerf on the snipe. 35 would be better nerf to more than 30 is overdone I think. The phoenix upgrade is overdone too, cause phoenix (with decent micro) already counter mutas pretty good. When the protoss opens stargate, mutas is completly worthless against toss. Still good as sudden and unscouted tech switch though.
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On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc.
Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance!
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4713 Posts
What people keep forgetting about TvZ late game is that. A zerg can re-max in 1 min into a totally different comp that can kill your current comp. Excluding Ghosts, a composition that counters BL, Corrupter, Infestor, is terrible against a re-max of Ultras and Lings, and vice versa. Ghost was actually needed so the Terran could have a decent chance against zerg late game, Ghost needed to be somewhat more flexible so it could hold the terran army on its feet.
Now though, Ghosts will be 40% more useless vs the units they need to counter. So Terrans will either be forced to add more ghosts, or have to go into a losing situation of having to try and sacrifice their units and re-max to counter the constant tech switches of Zerg.
Added to this that mass snipe is one of the most micro-intensive and hard to pull off tactics in the game.
Add to this that its been shown statistically that, late game Terran actually has the hardest time winning in both match ups, and still one of the core units of the terran army gets nerfed.
I don't care any more though, I hope the nerfs go trough, I hope terrans don't win anything for 6 months so that people finally stop QQing terran is OP and so that after a while the appropriate buffs can be applied. When terrans will be reduced to only all-ins or mid-game races against the clock, we'll know its bad.
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On February 11 2012 04:16 dave333 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:09 clusen wrote:On February 11 2012 04:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races? Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, their heads explode. The thing is(and I don't even play T, I play Z but have played my fair share of games with random) T is harder to play at mid masters level compared to Z and especially P. So while T might be the best race at the highest level(and I don't think that even that is the case anymore) most players don't have the skill to take advantage of that fact. Of course you are pissed if you are in that situaiton :p And it should be perfectly fine. Difficulties arising at different skill levels is perfectly normal at any competitive game with options. For example, choosing a 2 hand backhand or a 1 hand backhand in tennis. The 1 hander is harder to to learn when you are first starting, and you will probably struggle with it in comparison to doing a two hander. But once people start playing at higher levels, the 2 hander will have a harder time learning how to slice. At the upper levels, they are pretty damn even (unless you're talking Rafa vs Federer, in which case that 1 hander is a disadvantage). What really matters is that the top levels are balanced, and that the lower levels aren't grossly imbalanced. I wouldn't say nerfing the complete zerg t3 counter leads to a gross imbalance. Far from it really.
I generally agree with the idea, that balance matters most for the highest level. But why would you nerf goldmules? They wont make a change in GSL only on ladder...
Yes of course it provides an advantage for T but Z and P have enough stuff, that is imbalanced for them too...
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On February 11 2012 04:30 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:13 neoghaleon55 wrote:
FEAR NOT TERRAN PLAYERS!!
Mass hunter seeker missiles will be the new snipe
^_^ Even if mass seeker missiles would work, whats the point? It would be nerfed in a way or another aswell.
Comon, quit being so pessimistic
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:15 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 Qaatar wrote:On February 11 2012 04:05 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On February 11 2012 04:04 Ventor wrote:
Is it just me or does it seem like terrans won't be happy unless they are dominating both the other races? Agreed. Terrans are too used to abusing the game, so when they get nerfed and start losing at 50% ratio, they're heads explode. How about they address the T early game, and not nerf the already weak T late game? These arguments aren't stemming from the fact that T will suddenly lose more - I'd argue that they won't. They will just cheese more, and the win ratios will stay the same. Seriously, half of the posts in this thread are worrying about the quality of TvZ games, yet you still post like this? I'm sure most Terrans will be absolutely fine with nerfs in the early game, as long as the late game can be sustained on even footing with Zergs. Unfortunately, it seems like Blizzard is content with forcing Terrans to be the cheesing race until HoTS at the earliest. I would happily accept a T buff lategame if there was a T nerf early game delicate though. immortal and voidray all-ins are pretty strong against terran. what nerf/buff would you suggest? I would personaly like to see a little love for the raven. I think Beastyqt posted earlier about buffing the Raven. Buffing hunter seeker damage and the Raven's movement speed would be a nice start. I don't think HSM need a buff make it cost less ( 75 for example ) but give it a Cooldown of like 10-15 seconds . But 125 is too much. I mean if it would cost 75 Ravens with Energy upgrade would be instantly able to use Seeker . If its to powerful then adjust its damage but 125 Energy is just stupid.
I say to remove the completely useless durable materials upgrade and give the raven an upgrade that increases the range of all the spell by 1, because as it is now the raven has some of the smallest cast ranges in the game.
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yay another nerf to terran!!! -_______- i do agre with the mule change but tvz will be almost impossible now late game i feel.... one fungal on vikings will kill them all and now snipe which is the only other way to kill bl is not gonna be nearly as good.... also if they just tech to ultras you now have a bunch of useless vikings that cant do shit and unless you have a ton of maurders you will die... i feel tvz late game will now be very coinflippy for the terran because there is no unit that is just really good besides the marine and the units get really hard countered by what ever the zerg decides to make with his 50 stored up larve
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On February 11 2012 04:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? Beastyqt always whines about terran being nerfed. When Korean pros, Painuser or someone reasonable gets grumpy, I will listen. He sort of reminds me of Idra in a way, but less fun to hear. And it should read: Protoss: What patch?
painuser? he qq all the time. less vocal lately, but he alludes to it all the time in his casts
plus he's not even good. coincidently he is in my masters division and i have even played him. nothing to be impressed about.
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On February 11 2012 04:26 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:24 Namu wrote:
Thank god I quit SC2 a while ago, these terran nerfs are brutal.
MULE nerfs were coming (late actually), but the ghost nerf...
We're having a hard time with protoss late game right now, zerg late game is going to be even harder with the snipe nerf.
No idea how we're going to deal with Brood Lord/Ultras now, we have no unit that can deal with both of them now. First of all, how would the ghost change affect TvP at all? More importantly: "we have no unit that can deal with both of them now" is just... that's the whole point, why the hell should one unit counter both the Tier 3 Zerg units?
Considering how easy it is for Zerg to Techswitch once the building is done and how horrible the counter to one thing is against the other thing there has to be something that at least deals ok with both . I mean there's no way to know what the Zerg builds until it hits the field and if you guessed wrong you're probably dead . With Toss and Terran you can scout the production facilities to know from what he's producing . With Zerg ? Not so much all comes from the same.
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