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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 04:24 Syrupjuice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:
range upgrade should be on the cyber core Mmm, not sure about that. Maybe, on cyber-core but requiring an additional tech structure. Otherwise, I think it would become too strong. I think having the upgrade on the fleet beacon makes sence, but might be too high on the tech tree. I think it will be viable none-the-less however, and will require more of an intent to go down that path than just an additional thing to get because it's there. However, I do like all of the changes in the path. There are not that many and they all seem to be good changes. Glad to see the mule and snipe get looked at, and a soft touch given to protoss in the form of an upgrade, as well as Zerg staying the same. I am excited to see how it pans out.
imo it should be a locked upg on the cyber core until a stargate is finished
having the upgrade on the fleat beacon doesnt give the p enought reaction time if the z decides to open w/ muts, they would still gain enought map control to hold the p on 2bases while expoing everywhere and then they could tech switch out of muts by the time range is done
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On February 11 2012 04:30 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches. mass ghost was a stupid creation. I played brood war terran and you didnt do that. It's terrible gameplay to have one unit that you produce which is clearly superior under all circumstances. Why do you think command and conquer or dune the RTS dont have competitive gaming application? one unit vs one unit battles. mass ghost is an artifact of bad design and they're trying to fix that.
Its weird that the one unit that was nearly untouched by both patches and players for an entire year needs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. I mean, a lot of units came out of the beta perfectly balanced? I mean, look a reapers....
>.>
<.<
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On February 11 2012 04:26 Zorgaz wrote:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
Change it to 45 but - 15 to Massive? Would make more sense.
I mean just 25 to marines and zealots? I might aswell auto attack and save the energy
Couldnt agree more...
And why do they still want gold bases in game...
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On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it.
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On February 11 2012 04:16 werynais wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:07 Yaki wrote:On February 11 2012 03:59 werynais wrote:
Make Ghost 200/100 -> Nerf EMP -> Nerf Snipe -> Remove Ghost? -> Remove Terran? Sorry but ghost 150/150 to 200/100 was a buff. Yes, thats what i said Oo
Lategame this is definitely a nerf. Most terran armies are very mineral heavy and having a way to use gas lategame would definitely benefit terran. Sure you can get ghosts earlier while still upgrading and getting medivacs/vikings but it actually doesn't really benefit you too much.
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Slowly but surely making sure that terran is unable to make anything but MMM and tanks 
Snipe nerf was too much, I'll agree it was too strong potentially in that situation where you have 11-12 ghosts on the field but there are countless situations where zerg does something equally imbalanced like rapid tech switches.
Mule changes are great. I adore the APM/CPM changes that was so good.
Phoenix nerf was a good example of blizzard just not allowing protoss to improve and just holds their hand. But I suppose they can address other areas of the game if the whole "mutalisks in large numbers make it impossible to play" later on portion.
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On February 11 2012 04:30 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches. mass ghost was a stupid creation. I played brood war terran and you didnt do that. It's terrible gameplay to have one unit that you produce which is clearly superior under all circumstances. Why do you think command and conquer or dune the RTS dont have competitive gaming application? one unit vs one unit battles. mass ghost is an artifact of bad design and they're trying to fix that.
I think the infestor suffers from the same mistake. When you combine it with BL, the composition becomes too good.
Thats why you need create a monster in TVP: ghosts.
Without mothership/archons, Protoss wouldnt be able to beat BL/infestor/spine crawlers, like Dimaga does very often.
I think blizzard needs to reconsider a lot of stuff for HOTS.
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good thing they removed the only cost effective way to deal with hive for terran
there were too many options to begin with
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Calgary25991 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:
I like this patch.
The MULE is an obvious change. I like that gold bases are still in the game.
The Phoenix change is interesting. Phoenixes are really good early game units, giving them any early game buffs would have made early game ZvP difficult. The change was designed to give them a mid-late game fighting chance vs critical numbers of Mutalisks. At that point, investing in a Fleet Beacon is not that much to ask. I like it.
I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Problem is that emp isn't that efficient vs infestors. Radius isn't that big. Infestors aren't that small. Ghosts more expensive as well.
? Having a few supply in Ghosts for EMP vs Infestors is more efficienct than having that supply in anything else. EMP vs Infestors is super efficient. It's not a direct hard counter that shuts them down, but if played well you should be able to do well with the Ghosts...
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On February 11 2012 04:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc. Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance!
all i did was agree with 3 notable pro players and disagree with you (the terran idra) for always saying terran is too hard to play
If you think the people i agreed with are wrong, go take it up with TLO, Naniwa, and TT1 if you think they have the skill level of "Bronze Protoss"
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Alright, now give us an small nerf to broodlords (maybe a very small reduction on HP), make Fungal give a 95% slow instead of altogether stop, and -actually- remove the archon toilet.
Bam, PvZ is (kind of) balanced and ZvT the Broodlords are still in line with the Ghost Nerf while still enabling a tech switch between ultras and BLs to be very effective.
Fantastic.
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On February 11 2012 03:26 Rokevo wrote:
Snipe nerf is pretty damn huge tho, terrans will have to figure something new out for lategame TvZ.
what is there to figure out. win before the broodlord infestor corrupter army stands or lose. nothing to figure out.
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On February 11 2012 04:34 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:24 Syrupjuice wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:
range upgrade should be on the cyber core Mmm, not sure about that. Maybe, on cyber-core but requiring an additional tech structure. Otherwise, I think it would become too strong. I think having the upgrade on the fleet beacon makes sence, but might be too high on the tech tree. I think it will be viable none-the-less however, and will require more of an intent to go down that path than just an additional thing to get because it's there. However, I do like all of the changes in the path. There are not that many and they all seem to be good changes. Glad to see the mule and snipe get looked at, and a soft touch given to protoss in the form of an upgrade, as well as Zerg staying the same. I am excited to see how it pans out. imo it should be a locked upg on the cyber core until a stargate is finished having the upgrade on the fleat beacon doesnt give the p enought reaction time if the z decides to open w/ muts, they would still gain enought map control to hold p on 2bases while expoing everywhere and then they could tech switch out of muts by the time range is done
This 100%. Muta doesn't kill toss, it gives zerg map control where they can tech to infestor/Brood. The phoenix upgrade hits too late to be of any use, because by the time you get it, the zerg has 5-6 infestors and can just fungal the phoenixes.
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On February 11 2012 04:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? Beastyqt always whines about terran being nerfed. When Korean pros, Painuser or someone reasonable gets grumpy, I will listen. He sort of reminds me of Idra in a way, but less fun to hear. And it should read: Protoss: What patch?
Here you go buddy 
On February 11 2012 02:40 Thorzain wrote:
I really feel that they overdid the snipe nerf. Ghosts really isn't a counter to ultralisks (300 energy to kill 1 ultralisk), and not a hard-counter to brood lords (they are good against them but not imba).
I feel that 20 damage is too much of a removal. When snipe doesn't even one shot a baneling or a zergling, something is wrong. Will be useless against zealots as well because the normal attack is just as strong as the snipe will be against light units.
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On February 11 2012 04:36 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc. Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance! all i did was agree with 3 notable pro players and disagree with you (the terran idra) for always saying terran is too hard to play If you think the people i agreed with are wrong, go take it up with TLO, Naniwa, and TT1 if you think they have the skill level of "Bronze Protoss"
i cant speak for the other players but in my case im actually pretty close to a bronze league player atm! : D
no joke
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On February 11 2012 04:34 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:24 Syrupjuice wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:
range upgrade should be on the cyber core Mmm, not sure about that. Maybe, on cyber-core but requiring an additional tech structure. Otherwise, I think it would become too strong. I think having the upgrade on the fleet beacon makes sence, but might be too high on the tech tree. I think it will be viable none-the-less however, and will require more of an intent to go down that path than just an additional thing to get because it's there. However, I do like all of the changes in the path. There are not that many and they all seem to be good changes. Glad to see the mule and snipe get looked at, and a soft touch given to protoss in the form of an upgrade, as well as Zerg staying the same. I am excited to see how it pans out. imo it should be a locked upg on the cyber core until a stargate is finished having the upgrade on the fleat beacon doesnt give the p enought reaction time if the z decides to open w/ muts, they would still gain enought map control to hold p on 2bases while expoing everywhere and then they could tech switch out of muts by the time range is done
I think it is good that the protoss needs to invest in the upgrade. It slows other tech and gives the zerg time to react. We will have to see how phoenixes trade with mutas when they have the upgrade. If I can make few phoenixes less than mutas and come out on top with reasonable micro, the upgrade should be fine in the fleet beacon. It will also give zerg time to shift out of mutas when they see the super-pheonix comming. Plus, think of the overlords...so many free overlords.
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On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely.
Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too.
I like the thoughts on Carrier... that is interesting. We'll see how it pans out.
So far I haven't ever had that much trouble scouting in PvZ or ZvP (I play random, originally my main race was Zerg for about a year and a few months). Overlords after the initial drone scout do well enough to learn what I need at the start:
1. FE
2. Amount of gas
And then at lair tech overseer/changeling scout the rest.
As protoss it can admittedly be tricky to scout when FFEing but basically there's one major thing you need to learn:
Are they busting you.
You'll generally figure out if it's a roach bust or a baneling bust (more often the former) with your second probe scout. If you don't see a third start getting suspicious, and if you don't see their natural time to turtle hard.
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Funny how terrans complain about zerg late game now, considering protoss have it a lot worse only depending on mothership to get a win.
But ghosts snipe and mules were pretty damn good.
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On February 11 2012 04:34 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:24 Syrupjuice wrote:On February 11 2012 04:09 mTwTT1 wrote:
range upgrade should be on the cyber core Mmm, not sure about that. Maybe, on cyber-core but requiring an additional tech structure. Otherwise, I think it would become too strong. I think having the upgrade on the fleet beacon makes sence, but might be too high on the tech tree. I think it will be viable none-the-less however, and will require more of an intent to go down that path than just an additional thing to get because it's there. However, I do like all of the changes in the path. There are not that many and they all seem to be good changes. Glad to see the mule and snipe get looked at, and a soft touch given to protoss in the form of an upgrade, as well as Zerg staying the same. I am excited to see how it pans out. imo it should be a locked upg on the cyber core until a stargate is finished having the upgrade on the fleat beacon doesnt give the p enought reaction time if the z decides to open w/ muts, they would still gain enought map control to hold the p on 2bases while expoing everywhere and then they could tech switch out of muts by the time range is done
Korean Protoss seem to be able deal with mutas just fine as is (and K zergs have better eecution, too boot), why do you need that much more to deal with them? Sure, it's hard; but making it too much easier isn't good either imo.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it.
That is very true. When looking at Snipe vs Z I was always thinking about those drawn out games. But that is typically when you see Broodlords get put on the field. You rarely see Zerg just barely hold long enough to get Broodlords out and then be in so many numbers that Terran can't survive the counter attack...
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EPT
