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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
i always wondered why cant they change snipe to a cd instead of energy, make it 8 sec or wtv.
idc about mule nerf, but t late game gets shitier every patch q.q
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im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too strong vs broodlords T_T
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I guess terrans will do a nosedive for a month or two and come back with new stuff and balance will be fine again.
Just like Zergs and Protoss did serveral times in the past.
EDIT:
On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too imba vs broodlords T_T
I think the fact, that you can double Vortex makes it so imba. The fact you can outzone a Broodlord-Infestor army to a narrow chocke makes it very hard for Zerg to move alltogether because Brooldors are so slow and chuncky.125 energycost would be perfect I think.
If you make vortex worse, you have to buff something else to make Protoss able to deal with Broodlords.
Something like Phenix range upgrade....:D
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Terran at diamond level is so hard right now...This patch will make it even worst...It's good to keep an eye on what the pro scene needs....but let's not forget about the noobs...
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Woaw Very nice changes ! Thank you Blizzard !
MULE's on a gold mineral was so imbalanced 
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is this a joke? I already have a hard enough time beating zerg lategame units anyway... Zrg players fucking complain about everything. Terran has been nerfed in some way with every patch.
Just because the pro's that play terran have a much higher skill level than the pro's that play the other races shouldnt be an excuse for why everyone else has to pay for it. in lower leagues, Muta-ling-bling damn near hard counters all ground units for terran. Same with protoss.... its not as simple with terran to just stim and 1a into chargelots, archons, and collosus without micro.... but with the other 2 races, it doesnt matter. and even if you lose your army as zerg or protoss, you can insta-remax with no issues.
It required a ton of micro before just from the mm ball even after using snipe. Now we have to get more ghosts which means less units that can actually be used in your main army.
Blizzard really needs to think about how the majority of the players of the games feel and not the .02% that are pro players...
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On February 11 2012 04:39 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it. That is very true. When looking at Snipe vs Z I was always thinking about those drawn out games. But that is typically when you see Broodlords get put on the field. You rarely see Zerg just barely hold long enough to get Broodlords out and then be in so many numbers that Terran can't survive the counter attack...
Well not so many in numbers to kill Terran with counter attack directly, but it's downhill from there I guess we can agree? So it's like fighting against clock, you either get there before Broodlords, in which case you can't aim to fight them (no vikings) or you play it out slowly and then you need good composition, because you will face Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor..
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On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too imba vs broodlords T_T
Why you trolling us...
-__-
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On February 11 2012 04:40 BAMF35447 wrote:
lololololololololololol @ Phoenix With stalkers/archons/phoenix (as is)/cannons ... mutas were difficult enough. Now longer range on the phoenix? Bring on the death-balls
Do you even play sc2? You can't afford a critical amount of phoenix if you are going for templar tech+stalkers when defending mutas. Also, I don't see why a toss would ever have phoenix in a death ball composition when they would just take up supply for stalkers.
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The Phoenix change might make them overpowered - they are still faster than Mutas and now they can just turn around if the Mutas try to fight and still be out of range...we'll see. At least one of the most versatile units in the game doesn't give air superiority any more, or can at least be challenged to it.
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On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds...
Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical.
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4713 Posts
When some races struggled, Blizz also intervened with some buffs/nerfs over time, I still hope terrans take a nose dive just for the sake of sanity, and to stop hearing all the anti-terran hate/whine. But I feel very sorry for the terran players.
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Do Phoenixes have +range on their gravitation beam too?!
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Calgary25987 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:39 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it. That is very true. When looking at Snipe vs Z I was always thinking about those drawn out games. But that is typically when you see Broodlords get put on the field. You rarely see Zerg just barely hold long enough to get Broodlords out and then be in so many numbers that Terran can't survive the counter attack... Well not so many in numbers to kill Terran with counter attack directly, but it's downhill from there I guess we can agree? So it's like fighting against clock, you either get there before Broodlords, in which case you can't aim to fight them (no vikings) or you play it out slowly and then you need good composition, because you will face Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor..
No, I definitely don't agree with that.
What you're trying to say is there are certain games where both T and Z play very well, but Zerg get to their final late game composition before Terran can possibly get enough Ghosts out to stop it. I don't agree with that.
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On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds... Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical.
the graph and its source were given several times in this thread
maybe read it before commenting in it
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Also I'm kinda hoping that this patch is somewhat related to HOTS, because there we might see some huge shift in strategies.. I guess Blizzard is preemptively counting on that - why would we need ghost to be solid all-around where there are tons of new strategies comming up in new expansion?
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Ouch that Snipe nerf seems like its goin a touch too far..... almost half its original damage now. I think maybe 15 less would have been better, so its still super effective against broods and not so much against ultras.
overall though it looks like a good balance patch, I like the phoenix range buff...
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On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too strong vs broodlords T_T
I have been saying this forever, man
I wont use vortex out of principal.
Honestly i think that broodlord/infestor is too strong of a composition for protoss to handle without the vortex (i have not experiemnted iwth mass carrier though). I don't think the whole votex thing is a reasonable counter. If i were to just toss out a suggestion, i would say that fungal should slow (not root) units and play around with that instead of being able to vortex.
My HT control is sub-par though. HT/stalker/void may very well be an adequate counter.
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On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds...
Hmm fair enough, I'll hide in a corner and masturbate while crying in shame.
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OP needs some polls I feel
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EPT
