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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 04:42 AnalThermometer wrote:
Glad to see Blizzard aren't afraid to break up the Terran status-quo. Looking at any metric will show they've had the upper hand in every matchup since the game was released, it's only expected they throw their toys out of the pram now balance is approaching.
Phoenix change looks interesting, a phoenix switch while waiting for your mothership may become as common as the late muta switchup is now.
Right I mean because, game length shouldn't be considered at all. They should just blindly look at raw win %s. O wait that's absolutely retarded, and horrible overall design philosophy.
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Meanwhile. If the idea is to make "mass ghosts" less powerful...does that not mean that the actual answer is to...actually mass ghosts, with as few support units as required?
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Calgary25986 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds... Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical.
Sorry. Luckily I found this:
On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.
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On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it.
Yeh Ive' been saying that for a long time. Easy split maps = Zerg isn't supposed to win if terran plays "perfect".
But on other maps matchup is fine and dynamic. Just remove shakuras and shattered (they are in fact removed in most tournaments and you rarely see ghosts in those games).
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On February 11 2012 04:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4PPe.png) I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from. Someone should counter that by just making a horizontal line at 100% for TvZ and TvP with no data whatsoever.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042
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On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too strong vs broodlords T_T
Dunno, BL infestor is also just way to good vs protoss. I mean if the zerg is really delicate about pushing the toss(which for god knows what reason zerg never seem to be) and keeping the BLs spread I feel vortex isn't really that devastating. That being said, BL+infestor vs vortex is just stupid(in a similar fashion as ghost/viking vs BL/corruptor/infestor)
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On February 11 2012 04:44 AeroEffect wrote:
is this a joke? I already have a hard enough time beating zerg lategame units anyway... Zrg players fucking complain about everything. Terran has been nerfed in some way with every patch.
Just because the pro's that play terran have a much higher skill level than the pro's that play the other races shouldnt be an excuse for why everyone else has to pay for it. in lower leagues, Muta-ling-bling damn near hard counters all ground units for terran except. Same with protoss.... its not as simple with terran to just stim and 1a into chargelots, archons, and collosus without micro.... but with the other 2 races, it doesnt matter. and even if you lose your army as zerg or protoss, you can insta-remax with no issues.
It required a ton of micro before just from the mm ball even after using snipe. Now we have to get more ghosts which means less units that can actually be used in your main army.
Blizzard really needs to think about how the majority of the players of the games feel and not the .02% that are pro players...
They did not really think of me when they nerft the warpgate build time to try and get rid of 4 gate. Nor when they got ride of void ray speed and the KA. But all those needed to happen. They should balance for the people who are best at the game and anything else is silly. If you want an easy game, I am sure there is another RTS out there for you.
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On February 11 2012 04:36 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc. Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance! all i did was agree with 3 notable pro players and disagree with you (the terran idra) for always saying terran is too hard to play If you think the people i agreed with are wrong, go take it up with TLO, Naniwa, and TT1 if you think they have the skill level of "Bronze Protoss"
I'm going to name my first child after you.
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On February 11 2012 04:46 Everlong wrote:
Also I'm kinda hoping that this patch is somewhat related to HOTS, because there we might see some huge shift in strategies.. I guess Blizzard is preemptively counting on that - why would we need ghost to be solid all-around where there are tons of new strategies comming up in new expansion?
The new xpac seems to be still a year ahead based on the last day conference call
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On February 11 2012 04:24 Namu wrote:
Thank god I quit SC2 a while ago, these terran nerfs are brutal.
MULE nerfs were coming (late actually), but the ghost nerf...
We're having a hard time with protoss late game right now, zerg late game is going to be even harder with the snipe nerf.
No idea how we're going to deal with Brood Lord/Ultras now, we have no unit that can deal with both of them now.
Honestly, there should never have been a unit that deals with BOTH of zergs t3...
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I think that's one of the best patches yet.
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On February 11 2012 04:43 Slomo wrote:
I guess terrans will do a nosedive for a month or two and come back with new stuff and balance will be fine again.
Just like Zergs and Protoss did serveral times in the past.
none of the zerg and protoss comebacks were products of meditation and hardcore training alone.They were all supported by buffs from blizzard.TvZ and broodlord inf composition was still bad for terrans before they started using snipe.If you negate an option or nerf it you need to open a new one.No terran loves to mass ghosts and waiti to spam R believe me.We too would like to have viable late game units that we aim to get instead of waiting to respond to your tech of choice
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I really don't get the point of the phoenix buff or tosses complaining about mutas. As I think we've all seen ZvP seems in favor of the protoss currently, in GSL, which is the highest level of play. So seeing foreign tosses complaining to me just feels like an excuse to not work as hard as the korean tosses do.
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I think a better change to snipe would be:
45 - 15 vs massive.
something along those lines
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On February 11 2012 04:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds... Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical. Sorry. Luckily I found this: Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.
ITS FROM THE FUTURE?!?!?!?!? what am i looking at?!
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On February 11 2012 04:46 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:44 Everlong wrote:On February 11 2012 04:39 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it. That is very true. When looking at Snipe vs Z I was always thinking about those drawn out games. But that is typically when you see Broodlords get put on the field. You rarely see Zerg just barely hold long enough to get Broodlords out and then be in so many numbers that Terran can't survive the counter attack... Well not so many in numbers to kill Terran with counter attack directly, but it's downhill from there I guess we can agree? So it's like fighting against clock, you either get there before Broodlords, in which case you can't aim to fight them (no vikings) or you play it out slowly and then you need good composition, because you will face Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor.. No, I definitely don't agree with that. What you're trying to say is there are certain games where both T and Z play very well, but Zerg get to their final late game composition before Terran can possibly get enough Ghosts out to stop it. I don't agree with that.
I'm talking after this patch (if it goes through), there is no more "enough ghosts to stop it".. So there we have our clock.
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On February 11 2012 04:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds... Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical. Sorry. Luckily I found this: Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.
Rofl. Well played, god I love watching you in threads Chill. Is that creepy? Probably. Back to weeping and jacking it in shame.
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On February 11 2012 04:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too. Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased. I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds... Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical. Sorry. Luckily I found this: Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.
day9 talking from the future.
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On February 11 2012 04:46 SovSov wrote:
Do Phoenixes have +range on their gravitation beam too?!
Not mentioned but probably not.
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Im glad i stopped playing and only follow the game, I dont think I could get any other wins then 2 base timings now.
Also I love that they nerf the terrans only lategame option without giving us a buff from Raven/viking/anythingthatcountersT3.
GJ blizzard you made it so only MMA/MVP can be competetive with terran now.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:46 SovSov wrote:
Do Phoenixes have +range on their gravitation beam too?!
I would really like to know this.
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EPT
