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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 04:30 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches. mass ghost was a stupid creation. I played brood war terran and you didnt do that. It's terrible gameplay to have one unit that you produce which is clearly superior under all circumstances. Why do you think command and conquer or dune the RTS dont have competitive gaming application? one unit vs one unit battles. mass ghost is an artifact of bad design and they're trying to fix that.
Ya man, BW Terran didn't revolve around the siege tank at all.
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RIP Terran if those changes come online. TvP lategame is a mess right now. TvZ lategame is going to be it with those changes. Blizzard seems to want Terran focus only on 1/2base timings/allins. Terran ist just getting overnerfed for no reasons. Zergs nowadays don't lose that hard to terran, but to protoss. So Terran get's nerfed, very reasonable!
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On February 11 2012 04:38 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:36 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc. Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance! all i did was agree with 3 notable pro players and disagree with you (the terran idra) for always saying terran is too hard to play If you think the people i agreed with are wrong, go take it up with TLO, Naniwa, and TT1 if you think they have the skill level of "Bronze Protoss" i cant speak for the other players but in my case im actually pretty close to a bronze league player! : D no joke
You need to be featured on one of Gheed's blog 
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I can understand the mule Nerf, but why the ghosts snipe?? This is ridiculous.
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That idea is pretty cool. Phoenix upgrade moved to "locked at cyber core, needs stargate to be researchable".
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On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4PPe.png)
I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from.
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On February 11 2012 04:36 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:32 Hider wrote:On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:
I like this patch.
The MULE is an obvious change. I like that gold bases are still in the game.
The Phoenix change is interesting. Phoenixes are really good early game units, giving them any early game buffs would have made early game ZvP difficult. The change was designed to give them a mid-late game fighting chance vs critical numbers of Mutalisks. At that point, investing in a Fleet Beacon is not that much to ask. I like it.
I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Problem is that emp isn't that efficient vs infestors. Radius isn't that big. Infestors aren't that small. Ghosts more expensive as well. ? Having a few supply in Ghosts for EMP vs Infestors is more efficienct than having that supply in anything else. EMP vs Infestors is super efficient. It's not a direct hard counter that shuts them down, but if played well you should be able to do well with the Ghosts...
If absolutely perfect control they can be medium efficient. But for most people (also koreans) its better just focussing at controlling tanks/bio than ghosts. Hitting like 3 infestors with 1 perfect emp isn't game changing. And if just a few fungals go off (which they most likely will since you don't always have ghosts in perfect position to emp).
Honestly having a few more tanks just seems easier, and even if you have almost perfect emps, the tanks will do just as well.
But my prob with patch is: WHy not just change maps instead of balance. IN gsl ghosts are rarely seen vs z.
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Woooow holy shit 2nd best patch ever
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"This range upgrade should help even the odds by giving protoss players the option to reactively build phoenixes in smaller numbers"
Just lol.
So I see a bunch of mutas out, so while I warp as many stalkers as I can in defense, I build a stargate, then a fleet beacon, then do that research for phoenix range. How long is that in game ? Reactively should imply that I can drop a stargate when I scout mutas and still be in time to defend them. I doubt that's going to happen with an upgrade on the fleet beacon. After all, if I had a fleet beacon, I may as well research the MS instead.
That change will only be nice if you open phoenix ( part of your build ), scout mutas while you harass, then you can drop the beacon and do the upgrade in time and be fine.. but that's it. If you didn't open phoenix in the first place, going stargate reactively will still be an horrible solution 
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Well the good news here is that i don't play Terran trololol, i guess well see how the pro's react and change.
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On February 11 2012 03:30 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:I love how blizzard always boosts strongest race and keeps nerfing terran no matter the balance in game. On top of terran nerfs they keep pushing terrans to micro even more and dumbing out other 2 races. Having problems in microing phoenix vs muta? its fine we'll boost it so you can do it now for sure because its pretty imbalanced having to micro your units With what is terran supposed to kill broodlords now? Every terran and zerg in GSL that gave interview they said playing vs protoss is super hard and that protoss should always win in PvZ and the only strat that worked for Z gets nerfed? More and more terran players keep quiting their race and this will not help it at all, I agree with mule nerf, but if you already want to nerf ghosts can you give us less useless raven abilities or something to deal with broodlords? For ultras you can make marauders, emp infestors and kite. This isnt rage post, its a whine post and when terran is in worst shape since start of the game they nerf the only unit that could keep terran late game alive vs other 2 races with already having terrible macro abilities (larva/warpgates).
Couldn't agree more. You know what, i am just a low diamond league Terran scrub who only plays like a couple of ladder games per day so i really don't care but for people that are trying to make a living out of this it can be pretty huge. I am really sceptical about the decision making process behind some of these changes (actually just the snipe nerf). On paper ghost was designed to coutner spellcasters and not BL or Ultralisks but after a year and a half we have seen that they are actually a must have for late game vs Z. IMHO the great TvZ matchup, which is the only really good in SC2, will become crap, almost like TvP, the Terran will try to kill on 1-2 base timings or just die.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.
Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.
Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings
The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.
The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.
I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).
I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.
I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra
My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)
There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate
Absolutely. Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too.
Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased.
I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds...
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lololololololololololol @ Phoenix With stalkers/archons/phoenix (as is)/cannons ... mutas were difficult enough. Now longer range on the phoenix? Bring on the death-balls
User was warned for this post
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On February 11 2012 04:39 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:30 Spieltor wrote:On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
Even though they should just flat out remove gold bases, the change could work.
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches. mass ghost was a stupid creation. I played brood war terran and you didnt do that. It's terrible gameplay to have one unit that you produce which is clearly superior under all circumstances. Why do you think command and conquer or dune the RTS dont have competitive gaming application? one unit vs one unit battles. mass ghost is an artifact of bad design and they're trying to fix that. Ya man, BW Terran didn't revolve around the siege tank at all.
tanks could actually kill something and positions were important.
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On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from.
Someone should counter that by just making a horizontal line at 100% for TvZ and TvP with no data whatsoever.
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On February 11 2012 04:39 Ryps wrote:
Funny how terrans complain about zerg late game now, considering protoss have it a lot worse only depending on mothership to get a win.
But ghosts snipe and mules were pretty damn good.
Yeah, no one should be concerned about problems because someone else has worse ones.
And from what I've seen, Protoss has it EZEZ against Zerg lategame. Although I don't know much on the subject so don't take me seriously.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
Glad to see Blizzard aren't afraid to break up the Terran status-quo. Looking at any metric will show they've had the upper hand in every matchup since the game was released, it's only expected they throw their toys out of the pram now balance is approaching.
Phoenix change looks interesting, a phoenix switch while waiting for your mothership may become as common as the late muta switchup is now.
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On February 11 2012 04:38 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:36 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:33 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On February 11 2012 04:26 Roxy wrote:On February 11 2012 04:20 Treehead wrote:
To Summarize the thread so far for people who don't wanna read 50 pages:
Pros Paraphrased
TLO: Good changes, maybe too heavy on the snipe nerf.
Grubby: Good changes
Incontrol: Some stuff about new unit countering options - seems like he thinks the changes were good/obvious.
Beastyqt: Other races becoming too easy and nerfing terran.
TT1: Put the phoenix change on the cyber core.
Naniwa: Upgrade on fleet beacon is worthless.
Everyone else
Terran: You made it worse. Terran now has no chance against anyone.
Protoss: You didn't change anything. *jedi mind trick*
Zerg: Zergs now have no chance against P.
Did I get that right? I agree with TLO and Naniwa the most. TT1 solution sounds reasonable, but should make it a long research time. Beastyqt is a notorious QQer, but i do think that the raven should get some sort of buff. Also. Atn.Cloud QQ inc. Please continue, i'd like to hear more from bronze protoss on balance! all i did was agree with 3 notable pro players and disagree with you (the terran idra) for always saying terran is too hard to play If you think the people i agreed with are wrong, go take it up with TLO, Naniwa, and TT1 if you think they have the skill level of "Bronze Protoss" i cant speak for the other players but in my case im actually pretty close to a bronze league player atm! : D no joke
Don't worry, its nice down here with us scrubs. Your always welcome No one expects anything from us and we can whine about everything. Its a blast!!! :-)
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On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from.
Not to mention it's irrelevant anyway. Lategame ZvT where the Terran doesn't make any Ghosts, he'll most likely lose. If he does mass Ghosts however, then it's essentially game over for the zerg. That's not nerfing a unit unnecessarilly, that's fixing a broken situation. The real problem is that Terran isn't getting any other sort of buff that would only affect endgame TvZ and has nothing whatsoever to do with Ghosts, more likely something to do with Ravens I'd guess.
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from.
That is from a survey done on MLG Providence. I would love if it could be extended to all the games in the last 2-3 months, but that would probably be a herculean task. From what I heard, this was hard to put together too.
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EPT
