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Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 55

Forum Index > SC2 General
4449 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.

Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions.
aintz
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada5624 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1081
gg late game tvz. now zergs just have to turtle and live to late game and roll the terran over. you cant stop bl with viking unless they make 0 infestor and morph all corruptors to bl.
fishinguy
Profile Joined November 2010
Russian Federation798 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1082
On February 11 2012 04:47 HaXXspetten wrote:
OP needs some polls I feel


Seriously will not work, simply because of the massive race bias in TL. The vast majority will vote based on their own interests, including me.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25981 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1083
On February 11 2012 04:50 Everlong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:46 Chill wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:44 Everlong wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:39 Chill wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:34 Zarahtra wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:28 Chill wrote:I think the Snipe change needs to be reconsidered. Snipe in TvZ is an all-or-nothing choice. In late game Shakuras Plateau, you're either going to see 3 Ghosts for EMP on Infestors, or 20 Ghosts to crush Broodlord / Ultralisk armies. It's rarely in between. While I think Ghosts are a little too good at countering late game Zerg, I don't think Zergs were trying all the options yet to punish Terrans that play for this late game style. Ghosts are still slow and vulnerable. What this change does is eliminate the 20+ Ghost-using-Snipe option. In my eyes, you shouldn't see more than 5 Ghosts on the field in TvZ now for key EMPs and nukes. Their Snipe damage is simply too low now. Maybe that's what Blizzard wanted, but I think there is a better medium where massing Ghosts for Snipe is still viable and good, but not as good. Maybe 25 + 25 psionic is that point? I don't think so, but we'll see.

I think people are also focusing so much on exactly those games, maps such as shakuras where you can have 50-100% more bases than the zerg, can fortify certain positions on the map very well and then just mass ghosts. On other maps, you simply cannot do that, or the zerg in the least has options to punish it.

That is very true. When looking at Snipe vs Z I was always thinking about those drawn out games. But that is typically when you see Broodlords get put on the field. You rarely see Zerg just barely hold long enough to get Broodlords out and then be in so many numbers that Terran can't survive the counter attack...


Well not so many in numbers to kill Terran with counter attack directly, but it's downhill from there I guess we can agree? So it's like fighting against clock, you either get there before Broodlords, in which case you can't aim to fight them (no vikings) or you play it out slowly and then you need good composition, because you will face Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor..

No, I definitely don't agree with that.

What you're trying to say is there are certain games where both T and Z play very well, but Zerg get to their final late game composition before Terran can possibly get enough Ghosts out to stop it. I don't agree with that.


I'm talking after this patch (if it goes through), there is no more "enough ghosts to stop it".. So there we have our clock.

Yea. I agree after the patch Ghosts are basically worthless above 5.
Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1084
On February 11 2012 04:48 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:45 Plansix wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:40 Chill wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:
On February 11 2012 03:48 Roxy wrote:
I think that the phenoix change will be huge. A lot huger than many of you are giving it credit for.

Vs zerg, stargate is much more viable.

Voids counter roach
Pheonix counter muta (and somewhat counter hydras).
And as a mineral dump, zealots counter lings

The fact that we are encouraged to get a fleet beacon means that while colossus are better, carrier is already available. From the perspective of the costs to switch tech, carrier may very well be the better option.

The fleet beacon also opens up the benefit of having additional air upgrades. Prior to this I used to just get 1-1 for voids and that was it.

I hate the mothership. At least the vortex ability. I think it should be changed or removed. Mothership should be a moving power field instead of have vortex. I would love to see recall more though (and I think we will see it in tandem with carrier play).

I see zerg avoiding mutalisks because phenoix will wreck them just as bad as fungal wrecks phoenixes. Huge investment losses to be incurred. I think that meta-game-wise, zerg will just skip straight to infestors.

I suspect we are going to be seeing protoss go for carrier/voidray/mothership and zerg will be going for infestor (specifically infested terrans)/hydra

My suspicion on balance:
As usual, zerg will lose a whole bunch of games and they will QQ but then they will figure out how to stop the protoss strat and then they wont lose to it anymore (timings / when to army or drone / when protoss is weak / how to read what they are doing)

There is still a glaring hole in the whole PvZ matchup. Neither race cna viable scout the other. Protoss can use the following to scout (but only can be done after the 10 minute mark):
- If you have an obs, you are kind of committed to robo
- If you get halucination, that cost just as much gas as a robo. You probably have to go hateway play here. Not enouhg gas to get halucination AND hit any stargate/robo timing.
- If you scout with a pheonix, you are commtied to stargate




Absolutely.
Assuming the range also increases range of grav lift, Hydras will be even weaker against phoenix, and infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily too.

Not sure why you would assume the range of graviton beam is increased.

I don't know how you can see Infestors can be picked off pretty damn easily when they have an AoE spell that stops Phoenixes from moving for several seconds...


Chill, why are you using logic in a patch notes thread? That is not how you argue here. You make long winded posts based on limited to zero information and then back it up with graphs and data from unknown sources. Also, quotes from pro players taken out of context is critical.

Sorry. Luckily I found this:

Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.


Well done, sir. Thats some solid data mining right there. So what part of the TL seach allows me to go to the future? Because I need that feature to make some friendly wagers on a few matchs...for science.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Chunhyang
Profile Joined December 2011
Bangladesh1389 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1085
Meh. I've always believed in buffs > nerfs. Shoulda just buffed the massive of zerg. Zerg feels good, Terrans don't feel bad, win win.
If you could reason with haters, there would be no haters. YGTMYFT
jliu
Profile Joined March 2011
282 Posts
February 10 2012 19:51 GMT
#1086
Whether or not BeastQT is a notorious QQer - he brings up an incredibly good point.
What is the reason that T sucks late game but owns early game? Why do we see the stats we do regarding winrate 20+ and under 10 minutes?

Answer: Race design: I think both with regard to micro investment (much higher with terran) and with flexibility of tech. Terran early game tech "cheeses" are easier to transition into regular game because of add-ons and allow for a better arsenal for 1 and 2base all-ins. The other races ARE being dumbed down and that's the smartest thing anyone has said in this thread.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
February 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#1087
I am fine with snipe nerf if and only if Terran gets something for their late game. Right now Terran is already weak in TvP late game, after the Ghost nerf it will be the same thing in TvZ.

The solution is to boost Battlecruisers:
Half their ROF but double the damage so the DPS remains the same but they perform better against upgraded opponents. Also make them immune to Feedback.
AnalThermometer
Profile Joined February 2011
Vatican City State334 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:52:54
February 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#1088
On February 11 2012 04:47 Roxy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too strong vs broodlords T_T


I have been saying this forever, man

I wont use vortex out of principal.

Honestly i think that broodlord/infestor is too strong of a composition for protoss to handle without the vortex (i have not experiemnted iwth mass carrier though). I don't think the whole votex thing is a reasonable counter. If i were to just toss out a suggestion, i would say that fungal should slow (not root) units and play around with that instead of being able to vortex.

My HT control is sub-par though. HT/stalker/void may very well be an adequate counter.


Dunno if TT1 is joking or not. I've seen korean games where the broodlords are spread and vortex looks pretty useless when you're only able to catch 1-2 broods, if anything its the corruptors that clump quicker and tend to get toileted. Haven't been able to test it myself since 99.9% foreign zergs aren't microing yet.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
February 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#1089
On February 11 2012 04:42 HaXXspetten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:39 The KY wrote:
On February 11 2012 04:32 brain_ wrote:
HEY GUYS I THINK WE SHOULD NERF THE TERRAN LATEGAME

[image loading]


I'd be tempted to agree, but where are these figures even from? There's no reference point on this graph it's just percentages, it's essentially useless unless we know the sample size or where the sample is even from.

Not to mention it's irrelevant anyway. Lategame ZvT where the Terran doesn't make any Ghosts, he'll most likely lose. If he does mass Ghosts however, then it's essentially game over for the zerg. That's not nerfing a unit unnecessarilly, that's fixing a broken situation. The real problem is that Terran isn't getting any other sort of buff that would only affect endgame TvZ and has nothing whatsoever to do with Ghosts, more likely something to do with Ravens I'd guess.


Tbh I don't agree with this anyway. ZvT late game is usually made up of infestors/broods/ultras and it's really vulnerable to drops and often you'll just see a zerg fall to bits as marines take out their expos, drones, queens, tech structures. Even earlier today Supernova vs Slivko, Slivko's end game army is on the other side of the map and EIGHT marines just dropped his third and did a ridiculous amount of damage. Eventually he pulled everything back across the whole map, for 8 marines.
Chvol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States200 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:56:59
February 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#1090
6 range on phoenix will be weird. If they can lift from that range too it will be sick harass.

I'm not convinced many protoss will actually bother with going phoenix to stop mutas though. I think most pros are more comfortable playing stalker/HT with some cannons. It's really out of the way to buy a bunch of phoenix and a fleet beacon to counter one unit. If blizzard would couple this with a build time decrease for carrier, that would be truly interesting.
s3rp
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany3192 Posts
February 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#1091
On February 11 2012 04:50 -TesteR- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:24 Namu wrote:
Thank god I quit SC2 a while ago, these terran nerfs are brutal.
MULE nerfs were coming (late actually), but the ghost nerf...
We're having a hard time with protoss late game right now, zerg late game is going to be even harder with the snipe nerf.
No idea how we're going to deal with Brood Lord/Ultras now, we have no unit that can deal with both of them now.


Honestly, there should never have been a unit that deals with BOTH of zergs t3...


There has to be something that does at least alright with both else you have to nerf to techswitching aspect or make it possible for Terran to know whats going to hatch from the eggs.
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
February 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#1092
On March 19 2012 00:62 Day[9] wrote:
This game won't be balanced until MULEs don't mine 50% more effectively from gold bases.


19 March 2012 ? o____o Day9 is so good.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
February 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#1093
Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon

nony just won a gsl.
The Show of a Lifetime
sparklyresidue
Profile Joined August 2011
United States5523 Posts
February 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#1094
Here's my reiteration:

I think I agree that the Phoenix upgrade is kinda useless, but I also have a ton of trouble against Protoss, so I don't see it as absolutely necessary to fix.

In Platinum I really don't run into mass ghost that often, but it sure has made some higher level TvZ matches pretty unbearable to watch. So I guess I agree that it needed looking at. I think we'll just have to wait and see how effective this particular change is. It does seem extreme, but I severely doubt it'll make the late game "unwinnable" for T. It's not like the ghost has been removed as a unit.

Mule change, definitely fine and dandy. But I think we all agree that gold minerals should just be removed entirely.

APM switchback is better - the new number was sort of meaningless. Yeah old APM was inflated by spam, but at least the number means something. Doesn't seem like anyone was really in favor of that.
Like Tinkerbelle, I leave behind a sparkly residue.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10010 Posts
February 10 2012 19:54 GMT
#1095
On February 11 2012 04:48 Zarahtra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:43 mTwTT1 wrote:
im actually kinda dissapointed that blizzard didnt nerf vortex this patch, should have made it cost 150 energy, its way too strong vs broodlords T_T

Dunno, BL infestor is also just way to good vs protoss. I mean if the zerg is really delicate about pushing the toss(which for god knows what reason zerg never seem to be) and keeping the BLs spread I feel vortex isn't really that devastating. That being said, BL+infestor vs vortex is just stupid(in a similar fashion as ghost/viking vs BL/corruptor/infestor)


yea i know its a funny situation, bl infestor is very strong until p gets a mothership out but once that happens the z is forced to turtle and split the map in half lol, vortex/archon combined with instant reinforcements is way too cost efficient vs bl compositions

they really need to find a way to balance vortex without handicapping p's ability to deal with lategame bl/infestor armys
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:54:58
February 10 2012 19:54 GMT
#1096
Good patch, except there's no reason to nerf Snipe against non-massive biological units, since the intent is to make it less effective against BLs and ultras.

Also, Archon Toilet needs to be nerfed. The last nerf didn't work because it still destroy lategame zerg armies, and it's way too good.

nokz88
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil1253 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 19:55:31
February 10 2012 19:54 GMT
#1097
wow... snipe nerf is... wow just wow

It's feels like when you complain to a friend about your girlfriend spending too much, and he offers to kill her.

"Look, buddy.... I know there is a problem here, but this is way fucking over the top man."

We want to leave ghost sniping as a viable tactic, not outright remove it from the game. The issue here is snipe against T3 units namely Broodlords and Ultralisks. Now Snipe is useless since I will be better off just attacking or casting EMP.

Constant nerfing is not the way to go for fucks sake... give buffs not nerfs
Blizzard, killing diversity since 2010
in a state of trance
mark05
Profile Joined March 2009
Canada807 Posts
February 10 2012 19:54 GMT
#1098
I think this is the best patch in a long time, good job blizzard
yes, I'm MarkOhFive
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
February 10 2012 19:55 GMT
#1099
On February 11 2012 04:54 Empirimancer wrote:
Good patch, except there's no reason to nerf Snipe against non-massive biological units, since the intent is to make it less effective against BLs and ultras.

Also, Archon Toilet needs to be nerfed. The last nerf didn't work because it still works, and it's way too good.



only tool in lategame PvZ atm. Pretty ridiculous tho.
Zest fanboy.
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
February 10 2012 19:55 GMT
#1100
On February 11 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 04:44 AeroEffect wrote:
is this a joke? I already have a hard enough time beating zerg lategame units anyway... Zrg players fucking complain about everything. Terran has been nerfed in some way with every patch.



Just because the pro's that play terran have a much higher skill level than the pro's that play the other races shouldnt be an excuse for why everyone else has to pay for it. in lower leagues, Muta-ling-bling damn near hard counters all ground units for terran except. Same with protoss.... its not as simple with terran to just stim and 1a into chargelots, archons, and collosus without micro.... but with the other 2 races, it doesnt matter. and even if you lose your army as zerg or protoss, you can insta-remax with no issues.




It required a ton of micro before just from the mm ball even after using snipe. Now we have to get more ghosts which means less units that can actually be used in your main army.

Blizzard really needs to think about how the majority of the players of the games feel and not the .02% that are pro players...


They did not really think of me when they nerft the warpgate build time to try and get rid of 4 gate. Nor when they got ride of void ray speed and the KA. But all those needed to happen. They should balance for the people who are best at the game and anything else is silly. If you want an easy game, I am sure there is another RTS out there for you.

The funny thing is, I played protoss all the way up until the immortal buff and the toss just became to easy. You dont think we have similar nerfs? barracks build time? bunker build time? bunker salvage?

and that voidray speed upgrade was worthless. that was as useful as getting carriers. The warp gate nerf.... only made it so that your 4 gate come a litte later and you cnt cheese everyone with a brain. the 4 gate is still strong, its just that people now have the knowledge on how to stop it with no problems whatsoever.
ok
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