EPT
Simple. And when it comes to carriers, the main issue for me is its sentimental value, anyway. Questions from the Community - David Kim - Page 17
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foxmulder_ms
United States140 Posts
Simple. And when it comes to carriers, the main issue for me is its sentimental value, anyway. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:28 Imbu wrote: Another game to consider would be Hero vs CrazingMoving's Code A game last season. CrazingMoving gained a huge advantage against Hero using a Muta-centered playstyle but failed to transition out of it after he had a large enough advantage. That was on Tal Darim, and CrazyMoving won. I remember distinctly as it was one of the most depressing games I've ever seen as a Protoss. | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
On January 27 2012 00:55 GrungyMunchy wrote: Terrans stack their marines and marauders all the time, that's why it's called a bioball. And don't be rude next time. I ask again. Doesn't it entirely depend on the splash radius? And that's not stacking, that's clumping. Even so, I don't see Phoenix as a huge threat to neither Marines nor Marauders in the forseeable future. Phoenix have limited energy, and using it to kill a cheap unit like the Marine is almost not worth it. And do you know how many shots it takes for a Phoenix to kill a Marauder? If splash was introduced to the Phoenix it would most likely be a small one, think Thor AA splash, and that wouldn't be large enough to effectively kill ground units AS THEY DON'T STACK. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On January 27 2012 00:41 darkness wrote: Sure the colossus is boring, but it's retarded to have only storm as AoE. Archons don't count because their splash isn't as great as storm and colossi. no one is suggesting that they take out the colossus and not replace it with anything http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Reaver | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
On January 27 2012 02:07 Dauntless wrote: I ask again. Doesn't it entirely depend on the splash radius? And that's not stacking, that's clumping. Even so, I don't see Phoenix as a huge threat to neither Marines nor Marauders in the forseeable future. Phoenix have limited energy, and using it to kill a cheap unit like the Marine is almost not worth it. And do you know how many shots it takes for a Phoenix to kill a Marauder? If splash was introduced to the Phoenix it would most likely be a small one, think Thor AA splash, and that wouldn't be large enough to effectively kill ground units AS THEY DON'T STACK. They stack in the air when lifted, which is the whole purpose of lifting them in the first place if Phoenix attack has splash. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45940 Posts
Ghost EMP is Too Weak" ...I don't really understand these, but okay. Glad that he disagrees with those two claims as well lol. Glad that David Kim stays in contact with the community ^^ | ||
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Hypatio
549 Posts
Get rid of the alert and require creep for placement. It might also be worth it to tune down the cost. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
Anyway, honestly, these questions aren't that helpful IMO. The problem with PvT, PvZ and to some extent PvP is the shallowness, not necessarily winrate imbalances. Protoss is incapable of scouting early against Terran, so we basically fast expand every game or all-in. But the fast expand always plays out the same: you can either go fast colossus timing or tech into gateway/templar tech, which is much better IMO. If we all-in, well, it's all-in. PvZ? Same thing. FFE every game into turtle on 3base or all-in. The design of Protoss is just so shallow in this regard that it's almost impossible to be innovative. Stargate and DTs are both blindly countered by Spores and the fast-muta build that's in vogue now. I don't even think the matchups are imbalanced, but I gotta tell you it's pretty dull to play Blink into HTs every game against Zerg AND Terran. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 27 2012 02:33 Quotidian wrote: no one is suggesting that they take out the colossus and not replace it with anything http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Reaver Yeah it never was clear to me the reasoning blizzard decided to replace the reaver with the colossus when the reaver was AFAIK a much beloved unit by the community and progamers. But back on topic I don't know if giving Phoenix an AoE would be great due to graviton beam. With a large number of phoenix the AoE could potentially be gamebreaking. It wasn't an issue with corsairs back in the day since they had no mechanic to attack ground units. I don't think anybody wants to see mutas completely useless in the matchup when just a small number of phoenix are out on the field. If they really wanted to beef up the phoenix vs muta matchup, I'd much rather they add add 1 range and/or 1 armor to Phoenixes to make phoenixes easier to micro vs mutas so people could use phoenixes to fend off harass combined with cannons/stalkers/HT but not completely nullify mass muta. I personally think that a ground-based counter to mass muta is a better way to go in terms of game design, such as how it currently is in TvZ. Mutas are still popular in that matchup, but terran has ground-based tools to fend off harassment. So if blizzard does decide mass mutas is too strong in PvZ (personally I'm not positive if it is even an issue currently), they could buff Protoss' ground-based muta counters such as: -Tweak storm damage vs. air units: Currently to defend mass mutas it is a micro battle of storm vs dodging storm with mutas. Tweaking this micro battle to favor protoss IMO is one of the easier tweaks that can be done which would IMO not drastically change other match-ups. -Tweak archon's range/damage vs air: Currently archons are a very poor counter to mutas, even though blizzard's "help" screen indicates they are strong vs mutas. If they increased the range and possibly the damage of archons vs air units it would give the archons a very clearly defined role similar to the thor. Obviously the numbers would have to adjusted quite a bit, i.e. making archons air attack only do bonus vs light similar to the thor, since I don't think anyone wants to see archon toilets become any more powerful vs air units. This is a much bigger game design change, but I also do not see this affecting other match-ups greatly outside of PvP vs phoenix builds (which may be a good thing actually and currently I do not feel protoss has a good way to deal with phoenixes being a phoenix user myself). -Buff stalker damage vs light air units: Even though mutas are not great in straight engagements, neither are stalkers. With stalkers being protoss' main/basic anti-air unit, it actually does a fairly poor job at it. 1 banshee destroys 1 stalker, and vs medium sized muta balls you need roughly a 1:1 ratio of stalkers to deal with them. In the TvZ matchup however, marines (especially with medivacs) and turrets are far, far more cost-efficient in dealing with mutas than stalkers and cannons. From a basic game design standpoint, Stalkers should be more cost-efficient vs all air units, but currently they are only slightly more cost efficient. | ||
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Avean
Norway449 Posts
Must be trolling ... | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On January 26 2012 03:08 mTwTT1 wrote: phoenix's deal splash damage to air units. bam problem fixed give us back disruption web while we're at it oh and DON'T MAKE THEM FUCKING ATTACK WHILE ON MOVE COMMAND FFS or at least give us a hold fire command like the ghost has... so god damn tired of revealing my phoenix is halluc'd because it happens to barely get too close to an overlord I still think the change to make the phoenix not even have any micro and just attack on move command was the single worst change they have ever made to starcraft 2 | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On January 26 2012 06:36 architecture wrote: The reason that Z couldn't just always mass mutas in BW was because 1. irradiate + firebats (so that MM would shit on mass ling so hard that lurkers were necessary) 2. corsairs The reason Z couldn't always mass muta in BW is because you could only have 12 in a control group and had to spend a lot of attention to micro those 12. Mass air was always really strong. There's quite a few games where zergs just go 2 hatch muta into gaurdians (or in some games, just stayed at a badrillion mutalisks) and expanding all over the map with static defense (just like zergs play it now). If you could have 30 mutas in a control group every zerg would have used it and would have been 1 shotting nexus and CC's all over the place. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On January 27 2012 03:09 Avean wrote: Honestly, Terran having hard time against Protoss in lower league sounds more like trolling from Terran players. Its pretty known that Terran have it fairly easy against Protoss in lower leagues. Mainly cause Protoss have very cost efficient units, they need microing to stay alive and Terran actually start with counter units. Marauders totally annhilate stalkers which forces Protoss to tech to tier 2 units to counter (Immortals). Must be trolling ... Yes, a huge amount of the terran populations "must be trolling." That makes sense.. "fairly easy" ? Your impression of the game seems really off... even your description of a countering scenario is wrong. Protoss is never forced to tech to immortals to counter marauders - it's one option, sure, but a few sentries and chargelots works as well. A lot of terran players are professing to quitting the game because of tvp (myself included) Even judging by polls on this site, most people consider terran the hardest race after a certain point (plat/diamond and up) | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On January 27 2012 03:01 Skyro wrote: Yeah it never was clear to me the reasoning blizzard decided to replace the reaver with the colossus when the reaver was AFAIK a much beloved unit by the community and progamers. But back on topic I don't know if giving Phoenix an AoE would be great due to graviton beam. With a large number of phoenix the AoE could potentially be gamebreaking. It wasn't an issue with corsairs back in the day since they had no mechanic to attack ground units. I don't think anybody wants to see mutas completely useless in the matchup when just a small number of phoenix are out on the field. If they really wanted to beef up the phoenix vs muta matchup, I'd much rather they add add 1 range and/or 1 armor to Phoenixes to make phoenixes easier to micro vs mutas so people could use phoenixes to fend off harass combined with cannons/stalkers/HT but not completely nullify mass muta. I personally think that a ground-based counter to mass muta is a better way to go in terms of game design, such as how it currently is in TvZ. Mutas are still popular in that matchup, but terran has ground-based tools to fend off harassment. So if blizzard does decide mass mutas is too strong in PvZ (personally I'm not positive if it is even an issue currently), they could buff Protoss' ground-based muta counters such as: -Tweak storm damage vs. air units: Currently to defend mass mutas it is a micro battle of storm vs dodging storm with mutas. Tweaking this micro battle to favor protoss IMO is one of the easier tweaks that can be done which would IMO not drastically change other match-ups. -Tweak archon's range/damage vs air: Currently archons are a very poor counter to mutas, even though blizzard's "help" screen indicates they are strong vs mutas. If they increased the range and possibly the damage of archons vs air units it would give the archons a very clearly defined role similar to the thor. Obviously the numbers would have to adjusted quite a bit, i.e. making archons air attack only do bonus vs light similar to the thor, since I don't think anyone wants to see archon toilets become any more powerful vs air units. This is a much bigger game design change, but I also do not see this affecting other match-ups greatly outside of PvP vs phoenix builds (which may be a good thing actually and currently I do not feel protoss has a good way to deal with phoenixes being a phoenix user myself). Mutas arent a problem PvZ it's time to cut the bullshit, when you really think about it, what changed since beta? : Archons got buffed, warpgate timings nerfed (doesnt affect mutas at all), upgrades buffed, hts nerfed (thank god for that one), which still results in an overall better capacity for protoss against mutalisk in theory, archons being the protoss' thors that prevents mutas for doing whatever they want, magic box is cute yeah, but it limits a lot of manouvers and focusing and it's huge, lots of protoss forget about that and dont make archons when they could have. Thing is protosses are whining because they arent used to it, it's new, lots of people switched to that style because they struggled with roach hydra corruptors, and protoss players didnt adapt to it yet. I mean, your first few games as a terran you're going to get raped by mutas, you wont be in the right place, you will send all your marines to the main, he'll go to the natural kill 4 tanks etc. You know the story. But protoss got plenty of tools to counter mutas it's insane how so many people can claim that it's overpowered. Thing is so many protoss players see the match up as "he will throw cheap units, i'll be outnumbered but i'll beat him because my units are cost effective", well, too bad, metagame changed, zergs arent trying 300 food pushes all games anymore, they also try to capitalize on their investment during mid game instead of going for roaches who are worthless late because of the food they take. Just because they clump up doesnt mean they dont cost 100 min 100 gas each, and they can potentially die really quickly for a storm, a huge blink, or clumped up archon shots. I dont see your heavy gas units getting potentially shut down in less than 3 seconds. It takes time, for people to figure out new build order, units placement and composition, to deal with such a new style, because yeah, of course it changes a lot, zergs are already good at it because it doesnt change them much from the multitask of muta ling bling in ZvT, but protoss? they never saw that, they never had to play it 30, 40, 80 games, they simply arent freaking used to it. If they start buffing some of the protoss aoe, or nerf mutalisks (there would be no zergs left), it would be such a huge mistake, I hope they look at it calmly, take the time to realize how normal this is, since mutas didnt get buff, and protoss did get buff, and the archons toilet still work by the way, I'd like to see them work on that, it still feels as a bug more than a game design to aoe units that you made clumped up, you either balance the game in a way that doesnt make that possible, or you're simply confessing that you did a bad job at balancing it and put archon toilet (btw I've almost never seen vortex + storm when it finishes, would be even more destructive, and not that hard to do) because you gave a race a wild card that can turn a game around, especially when an opponent can do nothing about it. As for the "zergs are winning tournament, protoss arent", it's a freaking one and half year old video game, you cant base patch around tournaments results, like I said in a previous posts, protoss in korea arent as good as the terran and zergs, doesnt mean protoss is bad, just means that those protoss are "bad" (they're not but you get the point). And I pray, that they really arent seriously reading battle.net forums and taking advices from silver leagues who just lost to a Z / P / T and are crying about it, I really hope they put that there as a nice decoy saying "dont worry noobies, we listen to you (nah we're not)". It's hard so swallow, but balancing this game must be really fucking slow and patient, and it's frustrating when you think that, we used to play on Steppes of War as zergs vs terrans would could mass speed reapers or bunker rush more efficiently, but we had to wait for them to figure it out... | ||
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
currently facing against zerg is you can't move anywhere out of your base unless you have large enough force, or zergling will rip you apart and there's no escape from that | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
On January 27 2012 02:41 GrungyMunchy wrote: They stack in the air when lifted, which is the whole purpose of lifting them in the first place if Phoenix attack has splash. What are you smoking? How do they stack in the air when lifted? They won't stack any more than they do while on ground. Which is NOT AT ALL. Give it up, man.. | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On January 27 2012 01:32 marvellosity wrote: That was on Tal Darim, and CrazyMoving won. I remember distinctly as it was one of the most depressing games I've ever seen as a Protoss. Depressing in the sense that Crazymoving played like a fucking god? well yeah we agree | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
Terran players complaining that they have to work harder for to win are either bad players, or were just not very good at BW. I hear almost zero complaints from the Korean players, because they recognize the fact that in BW, Terran was simply the hardest race to play. Protoss was by far the easiest with easy access to cheese, simple mechanics, etc. In BW, you had to play like 3x harder than your opponent to win as Terran. You had to be more creative, on top of your macro 100% of the time, you had to aggressively play all the time, etc. etc. etc. You had no choice but to simply excel and become a better player. In BW, you were rewarded however because if you could do all those things, your opponent was almost powerless (watch IloveOOV with his sick as fuck Marine/Medic stim micro in BW where he could split all day versus Lurker/Ling/Defiler, come back and clean up). You are also rewarded in SC2 also. Good control/multi tasking leads to constant harassment and eventually Z/P players folding. Your day in the sunshine of A-Moving with Stim is over. Alot of Terran players are complaining because of bad habits that they developed because they used to literally be able to constantly pressure for free because of the terrible maps that were being used. The reason why you see only Korean Terran players succeeding right now is because they didn't develop bad habits; they didn't rely heavily on timing attacks as their primary weapon (although they certainly abused it in tournaments if it was overwhelmingly strong, such as the 1-1-1). They knew the game would progress towards a macro style of play, and that's why you still see them posting strong results despite the fact that even foreign Terran players are struggling. | ||
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