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Do We Want the Game Harder? - Page 25

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Quotidian
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1937 Posts
January 24 2012 07:22 GMT
#481
The game should get harder with each subsequent expansion in terms of unit design and how the effectiveness of units increases with skilled usage. Basically, "a-move friendly" units like the colossus should be phased out - Blizzard shouldn't be in adding more units strictly to make a-moving more effective (which is part of their reasoning behind the Battle Hellion)
iokke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 07:50:16
January 24 2012 07:47 GMT
#482
On January 24 2012 16:22 Koshi wrote:
Mechanical it should be a bit harder. Something simple like a 25 food cap on selection and removing MBS would be a great step. This is ofcourse not balanced in WoL but should be something Blizzard should consider for HotS imo.


Why though?
I mean if you think of it, how much depth does the the fact that you have to bind and use 3 hotkeys instead of one adds to our strategy game? 1a 2a 3a instead of 1a? I get being nostalgic about BW, but I really see no reason for a change like this.
If I have to use 3 keys to create a worker instead of 1... would that make the game better?
Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 07:53:44
January 24 2012 07:52 GMT
#483
On January 24 2012 16:47 iokke wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 16:22 Koshi wrote:
Mechanical it should be a bit harder. Something simple like a 25 food cap on selection and removing MBS would be a great step. This is ofcourse not balanced in WoL but should be something Blizzard should consider for HotS imo.


Why though?
I mean if you think of it, how much depth does the the fact that you have to bind and use 3 hotkeys instead of one adds to our strategy game? 1a 2a 3a instead of 1a? I get being nostalgic about BW, but I really see no reason for a change like this.
If I have to use 3 keys to create a worker instead of 1... would that make the game better?


I think you didn't play broodwar even at D rank because I don't even hot key my command center to even make a scv lol . I just use the F1,F2,F3 save screen key's to change between expansion and presto I can macro like a pro.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
iokke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 08:00:54
January 24 2012 07:57 GMT
#484
On January 24 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 16:47 iokke wrote:
On January 24 2012 16:22 Koshi wrote:
Mechanical it should be a bit harder. Something simple like a 25 food cap on selection and removing MBS would be a great step. This is ofcourse not balanced in WoL but should be something Blizzard should consider for HotS imo.


Why though?
I mean if you think of it, how much depth does the the fact that you have to bind and use 3 hotkeys instead of one adds to our strategy game? 1a 2a 3a instead of 1a? I get being nostalgic about BW, but I really see no reason for a change like this.
If I have to use 3 keys to create a worker instead of 1... would that make the game better?


I think you didn't play broodwar even at D rank because I don't even hot key my command center to even make a scv lol . I just use the F1,F2,F3 save screen key's to change between expansion and presto I can macro like a pro.


good call,
I just did single player in bw for a bit for fun, but i've read so many threads about BW mechanics vs SC2 mechanics..
I did play wc3 a lot where your binds were limited also (though not to the same extent). I really dont see how that adds to the game.
well ur nit picking a bit too, in sc2 also usually takes at least 2 keys (hotkey + e for protoss...) im saying that if we just inserted extra steps, like hotkey + e + f + z, sure it would be harder, but how does that add to the game?
Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 08:08:13
January 24 2012 08:04 GMT
#485
On January 24 2012 16:57 iokke wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 16:52 Sawamura wrote:
On January 24 2012 16:47 iokke wrote:
On January 24 2012 16:22 Koshi wrote:
Mechanical it should be a bit harder. Something simple like a 25 food cap on selection and removing MBS would be a great step. This is ofcourse not balanced in WoL but should be something Blizzard should consider for HotS imo.


Why though?
I mean if you think of it, how much depth does the the fact that you have to bind and use 3 hotkeys instead of one adds to our strategy game? 1a 2a 3a instead of 1a? I get being nostalgic about BW, but I really see no reason for a change like this.
If I have to use 3 keys to create a worker instead of 1... would that make the game better?


I think you didn't play broodwar even at D rank because I don't even hot key my command center to even make a scv lol . I just use the F1,F2,F3 save screen key's to change between expansion and presto I can macro like a pro.


good call,
I just did single player in bw for a bit for fun, but i've read so many threads about BW mechanics vs SC2 mechanics..
I did play wc3 a lot where your binds were limited also (though not to the same extent). I really dont see how that adds to the game.
well ur nit picking a bit too, in sc2 also usually takes at least 2 keys (hotkey + e for protoss...) im saying that if we just inserted extra steps, like hotkey + e + f + z, sure it would be harder, but how does that add to the game?


Meh the way I play things , I usually hotkey really crucial tech buildings like ebay,Armories to ensure I can get my upgrade's faster and I spare most of my hotkeys on my units . Having multiple hotkeys didn't impair me from making strategies because I still make correct decision along the way. Macroing in broodwar is actually quite straight forward , you just have to make more production buildings for terran and protoss and hatcheries for zerg . So it's nothing hard about macroing .

Oh you are asking for adding extra steps , but in broodwar there is no extra steps at all , I just press f3 and I am at my 6 barracks selecting each barracks pressing M and C to macro marine and medic and F if i want to make some firebats . Pretty easy stuff happening here.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Luppy1
Profile Joined June 2011
Singapore177 Posts
January 24 2012 08:06 GMT
#486
Does blizzard even read the TL forum? We can debate it out for an entire month and it wouldn't matter. Even something as trivial as removing close spawns for the ladder maps took them a year to implement. We can only wait and see what they decide to do with HotS. Also, someone needs to be a hero and ask them during the multiplayer panel at blizzcon.
houseurmusic
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States544 Posts
January 24 2012 08:08 GMT
#487
I don't agree with the premise. I know a lot of people that played BW when it first game out, the game died out due to its graphics. The gaming market and Blizzard is much larger now then it was in 98 as well. I don't think the unpopularity of broodwar has anything to do with "how hard the game is to play" or whatever. If this was the case why did Korea make an esport out of it? There were plenty other games that were "easier to play" that could have become what broodwar became. Isn't something like 90% of players aren't even masters? Obviously people who don't have talent for this game still enjoy playing it so adding features to the game that would only make it harder on a high level shouldn't have much effect on the majority as far game experience.

As for the question, I think the game should be a little harder. Units should be harder to micro. Spectators love marine king for his marine control, but I feel the other races lack the aww of impressive micro. I miss broodwar's mutalisk vs marine micro and well executed reaver drops. They were impressive because we all knew how hard they were to control which I feel made the game more exciting for the spectator.
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
January 24 2012 08:09 GMT
#488
I don't want the game to be harder just for the sake of being hard, but I do want the game to be harder. Day9's Baseballs vs Frisbees pretty much sums up how I feel about this. SC2 units need to behave more like frisbees.
Perseverance
Profile Joined February 2010
Japan2800 Posts
January 24 2012 08:21 GMT
#489
Please make the game harder t.t
<3 Moonbattles
gn1k
Profile Joined July 2010
United States441 Posts
January 24 2012 08:40 GMT
#490
On January 23 2012 21:12 DeepBlu2 wrote:
Adding things like automine and smartcast significantly lower the skillcap, yet don't make the game more fun, so I can't understand why they would add it.

Auto mine totally makes the game more fun. You can focus on making interesting decisions. Instead of doing the same thing 80 times a game. Something that is not a decision. Something you don't think about, you just have to do it. WTF are you talking about?
I think the game should have more micro things to make it a little harder. More interesting decisions to make. That's what makes it fun.
Creator of Street Empires and APM TD
Neurosis
Profile Joined October 2010
United States893 Posts
January 24 2012 08:45 GMT
#491
On January 24 2012 16:20 Uncultured wrote:
The game is slowly getting harder. As people are getting better/more familiar with it, and the skill cap is slowly rising.


This. We still haven't seen perfect play from any one player out there, and even if we had that just means it was perfect play in an underdeveloped meta game. You have to realize that as players get better and better more amazing feats are required to win. This sounds like common sense but everything is really up to the players and how good they get.
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
January 24 2012 08:51 GMT
#492
On January 24 2012 17:40 gn1k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2012 21:12 DeepBlu2 wrote:
Adding things like automine and smartcast significantly lower the skillcap, yet don't make the game more fun, so I can't understand why they would add it.

Auto mine totally makes the game more fun. You can focus on making interesting decisions. Instead of doing the same thing 80 times a game. Something that is not a decision. Something you don't think about, you just have to do it. WTF are you talking about?
I think the game should have more micro things to make it a little harder. More interesting decisions to make. That's what makes it fun.


First, I don't advocate non auto-mine, i'm just neutral, but what you're saying is wrong.
It adds more depth to decision makin, you have to make more split decisions. It adds difficulty in one of the most
important areas: screen control. You'll have to make a decision each time a worker is built: "Do i switch back to send it to mine, and lose focus on my army for a brief moment, or is it more important to watch my army than to potentially lose mining time".
wat
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 09:20:52
January 24 2012 09:18 GMT
#493
Everyone wants a more spectacular game. Everyone wants to see good micro good engagements cool usage of game mechanics etc, and while they say it they dont want to change/sacriface anything. It wont happen that way. You cant be good at physics and dont open the book.

But first there needs to be a micro or mechanic to work with. Micro and mechanic that can rival pure macro 1a move.
Stork[gm]
Hypatio
Profile Joined September 2010
549 Posts
January 24 2012 09:26 GMT
#494
You don't need to make the game "harder". What you need to do is provide more opportunity to reward skill.
Kamelixs
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden88 Posts
January 24 2012 09:29 GMT
#495
This is somewhat relevant to the disscussion so Im gonna bring it up.
There was a thread a while a go concerning the fact that it in Sc2 is hard for a good player to get extra value from units by microing better. The example in the text was that 5 marauders always wins against 4 marauders, and theres not so much you can do about it, However, MorroW commented in that thread that theres alot of neat stuff that he and other people wants to utilize, but that the game still is too hard to do those things.

Im definatley not aginst making the game harder though
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 24 2012 09:55 GMT
#496
On January 24 2012 18:29 Kamelixs wrote:
This is somewhat relevant to the disscussion so Im gonna bring it up.
There was a thread a while a go concerning the fact that it in Sc2 is hard for a good player to get extra value from units by microing better. The example in the text was that 5 marauders always wins against 4 marauders, and theres not so much you can do about it, However, MorroW commented in that thread that theres alot of neat stuff that he and other people wants to utilize, but that the game still is too hard to do those things.

Im definatley not aginst making the game harder though


Yeah... A lot of pros comment in these directions. TLO keeps on stating how he has so many ideas what he wants to do, but can't because he is still not fast enough and still experimenting with hotkey settings and ingame routines too much too have spare APM for this kind of stuff.

If you just watch the amount of targetfire possibilities armor types give players and how MMM is kited as one ctrl-group and army right now, often not even targetfirering at all, I don't see how this game lacks the potential for players to outmicro each other. But well... as long as the metagame in certain MUs is/was: Build a ton of units and sit on your ass until you can clash, there were hardly any possibilities for such things to develope. Thankfully this is pretty much only TvP and TvT when it's Mech vs Mech anymore. All other MUs just have those huge amounts of small engagements right now. (PvZ lacking a bit behind, but warp prisms, 4gate+1zealots and mutalisks have added more and more potential to those games)
Tulkas25
Profile Joined August 2011
Greece292 Posts
January 24 2012 09:59 GMT
#497
[QUOTE]On January 24 2012 09:22 zeden wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 24 2012 08:30 ChoboDane wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 24 2012 08:04 zeden wrote:
-remove smart-casting.
-equal and harsher punishment for missing mules/larvae inject/crono.
-bigger reward for great micro/control.
[/QUOTE]

-I said EQUAL AND HARSHER punishment. Right now missing mules or chrono is not even close o missing larvae injects. I want a equal punishment for all 3 races

to obviously a zerg player with just his mind on his own troubles.Injects are your macro mechanic.they are your way of pumping more units out.It's the same as a terran player or protoss player adds or doesnt add in time barracks/gates and all their other production facilites.In addition injects are cool cause even if u get supply blocked you don't really lose the production cycle(except if you try to hold an attack and you need units that specific second),You can just pump twice the units the next cycle.Missing your injects is like a terrand or protoss forgets gates or he doesnt add them at the right time.Comparing chronos and mules to creep spread maybe(which undeniable is a most valuable tool) could be more accurate.
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 10:02:28
January 24 2012 10:00 GMT
#498
On January 24 2012 18:29 Kamelixs wrote:
This is somewhat relevant to the disscussion so Im gonna bring it up.
There was a thread a while a go concerning the fact that it in Sc2 is hard for a good player to get extra value from units by microing better. The example in the text was that 5 marauders always wins against 4 marauders, and theres not so much you can do about it, However, MorroW commented in that thread that theres alot of neat stuff that he and other people wants to utilize, but that the game still is too hard to do those things.

Im definatley not aginst making the game harder though

I think we are mixing 2 things here, BW was harder but the difference of 4 marauders and 5 marauders in bw was possible because there was more "tools" to play with. You could set a trap on high ground, you could ambush a player and because there was not auto concave etc. the one who was controlling units first would gain advantage over the guy who didnt pay attention. Thats why Players are more active in bw, not because the game is easier or harder, but because you can FEEL the difference of being active. Limitations DOES NOT MATTER when they are applied to both players, in fact you can exploit your opponents limitations he cant overcome. Funny experiment, try to play bw for few days and try to get as much of it as you can, i bet that your D level play will be more active than sc2 mid master.

Now lets go back to sc2, pros dont do that, because they cant yet got their macro to 100% while doing tricks that give their only 5% efficiency, to compared 20% bw efficiency. In bw everyone will sacriface 1 macro cycle for that 20%, Flash does it Jd does it, the lack of automization makes losing 1 macro cycle much less of a burden in bw than in sc2, where you know that your opponent doesnt care about that 5 % unit efficiency and he only cares about macro and you try to sacriface even slight bit of macro means you gonna get oblitarated because of Snowball effect of macro in sc2. Mules Inject chrono and bazillion worker count equals in huge huge scale macro, and no ammount of 5% tricks gonna get you near it.

The conclusion is not that SC2 is harder than BW, the conclusion is simple: gameplay/strategy priorities are shifted.
Stork[gm]
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-24 10:24:45
January 24 2012 10:23 GMT
#499
I feel a lot of peopel are missing the point about removing automine. Bear in mind, I'm very very neutral on this issue. When SC2 came out, I loved automining. It's however important to rememeber that making the mechanics harder can be done for both macro and micro. 12 unit selection, no smartcast... all of that made the skill cap way higher in microing and made the mechanics for battle way harder. No auto-mine and no multiple selection of builds had the same effect, but for macro. What does this actually mean?

It means that focusing on learning macro meant more in BW. In SC2, you can at least get to gold/plat just by learning to macro well. In BW, the difference is way bigger. All you really have to learn to macro well as terran in SC2 is to hotkey your CCs, make sure they are building workers. Hotkey all your unit procuding structures on one key, make sure they are constantly producing. Make supply depots. Make bases. It's actually ridiculously easy. In BW, you have to constantly make workers AND go back and set them to mine, on each base. You have to make sure you were building out of all your unit producing structures, which means actually clicking on them, which forced you to use base cameras to have a chance. The bad AI made sure you couldn't just rally them to where you needed them.

All of this together made "learn to macro" a concept far more important than it currently is in SC2. The macro mechanics was a good addition to make this less so, perfect queen usage is ridiculously hard to achieve, chrono boost can be hard to keep useful, and MULEs... are still a ridiculously easy mechanic, but still.

When people ask for auto-mine and such to be removed, they don't do it because they love looking at their workers... they do it because they want the skill cap back, that good players didn't just do good strategies and awesome micro... they did this while constantly macroing in a sense which doesn't exist in SC2.
sCuMBaG
Profile Joined August 2006
United Kingdom1144 Posts
January 24 2012 10:51 GMT
#500
On January 24 2012 16:17 Bleak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2012 06:59 sereniity wrote:
The reason that the Code S winners MVP, NesTea, MC etc don't win as much as the BW top does (Flash, Jaedong etc) is pretty simple.

The BW pros are playing a game where every build is figured out, they've had enough time to practice the game to be near the absolute skillcap, they barely have any holes in their play.

The SC2 pros are playing a game where not nearly every build nor playstyle has been figured out, they haven't had enough time with the game to actually reach anywhere near the skillcap nor tighten up every hole in their gameplay. You constantly see new cheese builds coming from the top, new macro openings and the such which can make even top players lose due to them not knowing the existence of that build.

Once everything like that is figured out in SC2 and the top pros have spent enough time mastering Marine Macro, triple pronged drops and not losing to something as silly as a ling runby while their depot isn't up then you'll see those top players winning consistently vs lesser opponents.

The fact that people expect the very top of the SC2 players to win every single game surprises me, this game is still relatively new and there's alot of things that can still catch the top players off-guard, this isn't because of bad game-design, it's because shit needs to get figured out and pros needs to get better.

Please don't tell me MVP, NesTea and MC have reached the skillcap of SC2. They're damn good but I still see bad marine splitting from MVP time to time (and by bad I mean not perfect as it should be at that lvl). I still see NesTea making bad decisions and not microing perfectly (almost every pro sacrifices their infestors mindlessly every time they try to fungal for example) and I still see MC simply not playing at his best from time to time.

The fact that people point fingers at the GAME SC2 rather than it's players is funny though...

Does this game need to get harder? No, not really. The level it is right now is fine imo, give it time and we'll see how it plays out in a year.


You know, that "BW players had 10 years to figure out..." comment actually means that before BW (and competitive RTS) took hold in Korea, the concepts of macro, micro, timings, expansions and how they affect the game, strategy and army movement etc. weren't known at all. It was built from nothing. That's why Boxer, even in its top form, won't take a game off current game's monsters like Flash. So SC2 is already built on these concepts so its improvement has been much faster.

I'm sorry but I'm following a lot more BW compared to SC2 nowadays and I'm noticing that there are inherent problems with how WOL works. Due to MBS and ease of macro, it is impossible to come back if you lose the main deathball battle. The clumping mechanic and smarter unit ai means a lot more firepower available, and splash damage is all the deal in big battles. Units just die too damn fast before you can do anything (and sometimes you literallly cannot do anything, force fields and fungals) Smartcast removes the skill of good caster use (carpet storms and carpet emps with a few clicks). There are many very poorly designed units that are just a-move (colossus,roach,marauder) Interesting units like Reaver which require and reward good control are absent. Sentry and Blink Stalkers are really the only units that reward good control through forcefield usage and blink micro. Battles end far too quickly to allow an efficient retreat or micro that makes a big difference.

There are subtle but really nice ways in how BW units function. Take Reaver. It hits like a freight train (100 unupgraded and 125 upgraded damage) and with a splash. Yet it is probably the slowest unit in the entire game, so you cannot just take it, a-move and cross your fingers. You need a fast way to transport it to the battle, and Shuttle provides that. Shuttle is fast, but it is prone to be sniped by your enemy, so you need to control it well, because if you fail, you not only lose it but also the precious Reaver inside. Plus the lost opportunity for harrassment and extra firepower for your army. You can take a deathball with Colossi and Stalkers with a few sentries and just a-move across the map, and the only thing you need to do is good forcefields that honestly aren't that hard to execute, and protecting your Colossii, which the stalkers can take care of. But this isn't an interesting interaction between these units, it is just basic stuff, a unit covering another. A Shuttle brings a whole new depth into how you can use a Reaver. SC2 lacks that interaction. A Colossi harrass does nothing but make your opponent laugh, its whole function is to provide firepower in a major engagement.

Warp Prism could be interesting if Warp-in mechanic was exclusive only to Warp Prism's energy area but due to Pylons giving the same effect, they aren't as interesting as they could be. Still, it's a great idea and it deserves an applaud, but it could have been much better.

Get this: There isn't much more if anything left to figure out in WOL. HOTS will bring its own dynamics and then there will be a period of learning, just like it happened last year with WOL. But for WOL, the progress is pretty much over unless Blizzard introduces a major change through a patch. I personally honestly believe the biggest problem of WOL is how Protoss is designed. TvZ being arguably the best matchup in the game closely followed by TvT shows this clearly.



very nice post mate.

I agree with pretty much everyting in there.
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