EPTCreativity is a lost talent. - Page 4
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shirobu
Australia16 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On January 13 2012 18:51 Priestt wrote: There are a whole lot of ignorant replies to this, and i don't have enough time to address them all. First of all, the post was not to address what build orders people were following. You can follow whatever build order you feel like doing. If you prefer to repeat the same 4-gate no brain build every single game, go right ahead. No sweat off my back. It's completely up to you. What i was TRYING to get accross, but obviously to no avail, is that don't assume that the 4-gate is going to work all the time. Don't think it is the greatest thing on the fucking earth. Don't be afraid to try new things. Maybe instead of one assimilator 4-gate try a two assimilator 4-gate. I don't fucking care. Just don't be afraid to embrace your imagination. Second, if you read a post designed to help motivate and encourage people (lower level players) to enjoy the game they're playing and not to get too stressed and caught up with winning/losing, why the fuck would you bash it if you don't agree with it? Now, i know i'm beating a dead horse by scolding the internet, but come on, people. If you're a master's player, why the fuck do you give a shit what bronze players are doing, anyways? It's fucking unbelievable the outcry this has gotten. I'm horrified at how ignorant this community can be. Have at 'er! U mad? User was warned for this post | ||
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MavivaM
1535 Posts
Sc2 is a strategy game: by definition, some strategies are better than others and you may never know if what you are trying is a good or a bad choice, unless your experience or the results say otherwise. Pros are that way because they play the game more than you and at a deeper level. More likely, they have already tried most of your stuff and then concluded that there's something better. If you want to try new strategies, why not? Assuming that you try them with some reasoning, practice will tell you if they are worth. Ages ago WhiteRa strongly implemented the warp prism in his playstyle. At first people thought it was crazy or simply unproductive, but it worked. It was working even before the patch... then the patch came out and even koreans realised that it was a great idea. I mean, look at Hero. It this case, creativity worked. Lately, WhiteRa is trying it with carriers in PvZ: will it work? Time will tell. Once Spanishiwa popularized a gasless build that got the majority of the zerg a huge boner. At first it worked, then people figured out how to counter it and at the current moment people then to avoid it since it doesn't work anymore. An example of how creativity may work for a while but then countered by other creativity. At an MLG, TLO tried to defeat Idra with a one base seven rax push and failed hard. I don't think I've ever seen something like that again. Probably it was a build that wanted to provide a great aggression, but at the same time required too much economic support. Or he wanted to rewrite most of the Terran timings to throw the opponent off, we may never know. In this case, creativity didn't work. The point is that creativity isn't worthless. But exactly like in other games or sports, it requires a solid ground to stand on. You can't expect to build some proxies and pretend that you opponent doesn't scout, exactly like you can't pretend to go fast 2CC without your opponent putting on some pressure. It's just the reality of facts, but once you combine your common sense, your creativity and a good macro/micro... why not? About one year ago, my favourite player was a korean zerg named ArgosZenith. This guys was a strong Nydus user and I remember watching him winning a game with a proxy hatch cancel into queen's creep spread, to build a ton of spine crawlers in from of a toss' main. Back at then it was really cool, but on the long run it didn't work. On a side, you are right: creativity, ALONE, doesn't work. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
What pisses me off so much is the one that know "everything" because they read all the books (read every strategy forums and pro's analysis) and want to argue that this one is right or wrong. We are curious people. If a player told us that it's wrong, it simply won't cut it. Especially for the most curious ones :p Edit : This pretty much summed it up what i was thinking reading this thread On January 13 2012 19:05 DarQraven wrote: And what does that matter to him, exactly? If a player at level X can beat other players at level X with a certain strat, then how exactly is the strategy invalid? It works at the level it was intended for. Once you start hitting players that are good enough to hold your attack, you take a second look at it and figure out if you can improve it somehow or need a bigger change in style - you know, actually strategizing instead of just copying playstyles off liquipedia. You could maybe make an argument about a longer learning process by having to learn 'bad' strats, then relearn 'good' ones later on (as your level rises), but I think the effect is fairly minor. Learning a new build or playstyle is peanuts compared to the learning process associated with the general SC2 skills: awareness, macro, game sense and execution. Those are typically the ones that are going to dictate your general skill level. Please let your ego aside and try to read this post without any slight bias if you can because that's where most pros went throught it. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
It doesn't suck, it's just that later gas is a little more economical against Forge-FE without aggression (which is most games on pro level). 14g 14pool has several advantages: It's better against gateway first openings with any type of zealot-stalker pressure. It's better against pretty much any opening besides forge-FE. It prevents P from going nexus before forge on smaller maps. It's better for denying scouting and searching the map for proxy pylons. It transitions well to a roach-bust, and forces P to build 2 cannons and sentries if they want to be safe. | ||
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Starcraft2Germany
Switzerland19 Posts
For example I made the this Funday Monday in ladder matches and had no Stalkers and Zelots in a PvP or no Mariens and Bashnees in a TvT. * For example I played the funday monday on the ladder with more wins then loses. One PvP without Zelots and Stalkers and one TvT with no marines and banshees. In a pro game this will be impossible to win. @MavivaM Spanishiwa still uses the ice fisher build I think or a build which is similar. | ||
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Jynxx879
United Kingdom30 Posts
On January 13 2012 17:43 Bearwidme wrote: Creativity needs to go hand in hand with viability. I think this quote pretty much epitomises the perfect retort to the OP comments. Although I do agree that what we see is not always the most creative and that it does not mean that other avenues of play are not viable. Personally, there probably is alot of creative play out there doing very well, just as of yet, its still underground!  --> positive logic!!! | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
It's like focusing on how to make U-turns before you learn how to operate the break/throttle/clutch when learning how to drive. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:32 Starcraft2Germany wrote: I think its easy for not pros to be creative. I personally just start a game and then think of something I wanna do. I dont know any build orders, but I just make what I wanna do. When I wanna make Carriers in a PvZ I just do it, with no timeing in mind, I just make a starport get air attack upgrades, because I know that they are awesome for carrier and then I push out when I feel its good. When you have good mechanics and micro you can win even low master without build orders. So the skills on these levels are nothing that can prevent creative play*, but in the pro scene its way harder because when u use your idea for example warpprisme in PvP or your new build for example ice fisher the hole sc2 scene will talk about and they will find a way to counter hit or at least decrease the edge you had the first time. So u still need the skills of a pro to be in the pro scene and just being a creative player isnt enougth to close the gap. For example I made the this Funday Monday in ladder matches and had no Stalkers and Zelots in a PvP or no Mariens and Bashnees in a TvT. * For example I played the funday monday on the ladder with more wins then loses. One PvP without Zelots and Stalkers and one TvT with no marines and banshees. In a pro game this will be impossible to win. @MavivaM Spanishiwa still uses the ice fisher build I think or a build which is similar. I agree with this. Starcraft is a game that is meant to be played for fun. Using strict build orders and strict strategies will give you the best chance at winning, but only by a small amount. To the pros, however, that small amount is critical, and they have to do what works best and is proven to work best. Even on the ladder, where they can be more creative (and many are) Most pros stick to practicing what they need for the big tournaments etc.etc. where it really matters. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
I'm new to this game --> Practice standard BOs --> get good and understand the game --> realize the weaknesses of standard builds and design new builds to exploit these weaknesses It should not be like this: I'm new to this game --> I'm going to be "creative" --> engineer retarded builds that work only on players just as bad as me --> conclude that creativity is a lost art You should realize that every new innovative, ground-breaking build is not just one guy trying out random things. They are built on the back of hundreds of hours of testing and refining. You're absolutely free to play the game the way you want. But if you decide to muck around in plat with your crazy builds, at least show some respect to the people practicing standard builds to improve. Ironically they are the people who are going to come up with the new viable builds, not you. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 13 2012 18:11 corpuscle wrote: I don't want to discourage people from trying new stuff either, and I apologize if I came off like a dick (I tend to do that). I just don't want people to think they're being clever and creative by coming up with some gimmicky build that relies on their opponents being bad, which is what 90% of lower-league players who devise their own builds come up with. Spanishiwa was GM already when he came up with his build, and it works and people accepted it because it was proven to be effective against high-level players, not just because it was some bizarre concept that some random diamond dude came up with. I could come up with a million builds that would work in diamond because I can exploit the fact that my opponents aren't hip enough cats to know that I'm doing something weird, but that doesn't make it a viable build, and that means it's actually a bad idea to rely on it if I want to improve. I feel like a total asshole trying to stifle creativity and all, but really, it's hard to figure out what's working because it's actually brilliant and what's working because your opponent's just a derp. It sucks, but it's the truth. Pretty much anybody that isn't GM or almost GM isn't playing in an intense enough environment for their builds to be truly put to the test (and even then it's flaky), and I don't think it's conducive to improvement to keep doing a build that, for all you know, only works because your opponents aren't on top of their shit. edit since I don't want to double post: I didn't mean cheesy one base allins or anything. At the pro level, things like taking a third/fourth gas at a weird time will tip your opponent off, since there's so much information to be gleaned from seemingly basic things like that. Obviously that doesn't work at lower levels because your opponent might just not know when to take his gas at his natural (I sure don't!), but people who are really fucking good will know what to do about it. This, the majority of builds made by lower league people is based on exploiting the standard openings of the race you designed it against. However they pretty commonly have no fallback for if the opponent plays different to how you would expect. At the pro level other than random cheese all ins builds, even ones that specifically exploit one opening, have to be able to transition to deal with other things the opponent can throw at you. Working out an optimal solution to everything your opponent could do against your build is a waste of time until higher levels, better to just let the pros do that legwork for you. | ||
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Biggun69
187 Posts
On January 13 2012 17:35 Let it Raine wrote: standard logic is: if pros dont do it, then it sucks. but that just isnt true. pro zergs still 14 gas 14 pool in zvp, and that sucks. Why does 14 14 suck in ZvP ? | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
Cus every protoss at the moment will FFE on any map or die trying, there is little use for rushing out the speed upgrade when your not going to be in a fight until like 8+ mins. | ||
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ShotgunMike
Sweden241 Posts
The difference is in the margins. Low-level players have much larger margins while pro-level players are much more optimized to start with. | ||
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Iatrik
Germany159 Posts
He uses his creativity to fill certain questions with new answers, he needs to make something work. Example: You want to only go Stalker against Terran. You'll get smashed by Mass Marauders. Now there's the question: Can i use only stalkers against marauders? A normal player will just say no. A "creative" player will search for ways to answer this question in a different way: "Maybe i can use blink micro to make it work?" "Maybe i can use blink micro and motherships recall to make it work?" "Maybe i can avoid fighting the marauders completely?" "Maybe i can use warp prism micro?" Once he is able to find a way, he can answer the question with a "yes" "I can use only stalkers against marauders". Once you get into higher leagues, it's all about cutting corners. But the way to approach creativity will remain the same: "Can i get away with Twilight-Tech only against Zerg?" "Do i really need Colossus and Templar to fight Terran?" People that answer this kind of question in a new way, are said to be "creative". Like Kiwikaki using Blink in PvZ with a Mothership to recall. Like Adelscott only using Gateway Units in PvT. Creativity is just requestion answers, we take for granted. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:05 ShotgunMike wrote: I believe creativity is somewhat different things for a low-level player and a pro-level player. A low-level player is playing creatively when he proxies, tries to go nexus first on 18 supply or other "outside the box" things. A pro-level player tries to be creative in order to achieve an extra probe after 5 minutes of play. Or get an upgrade 20 seconds earlier. The difference is in the margins. Low-level players have much larger margins while pro-level players are much more optimized to start with. The difference is that most low-level players make up stuff on the spot, like "in this game, I'm gonna this build and see how it goes". Wow it worked. I'm gonna do this from now on. I'm creative, yay! A pro might look at a replay and think like "If he opens this way, on this maps and he scouts me opening this way, I can probably get away with skipping this tech and go straight for this non-standard thing that will catch him off guard. I'll tighten this build in a BO-tester a few times and then I'll work through the common variations with a practice partner. If it holds up, it could be a build to do once in a while in a BoX-series". | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Of course, there's also BoxeR type creativity in seeing so far ahead of your opponent and setting a gamble so far and away insane that nobody could ever have seen it... but such creativity is also based upon predicting the so called "lack of creativity" created by the boring macro style. Creativity ala TLO shouldn't really exist far into a game unless it's filled with undue bugs and odd ends. (Points to the first one to point out the game of BoxeR's that I'm referencing :DDD) It's not so much that creativity is lost, simply that creativity is much harder to see and appreciate than it was in teh days where EMP'ing a CC and nuking was the godliest thing in the world. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:02 Iksf wrote: Cus every protoss at the moment will FFE on any map or die trying, there is little use for rushing out the speed upgrade when your not going to be in a fight until like 8+ mins. You mean like killing them as they try to expand? I don't know if I agree that 14 gas 14 pool sucks. it does keep the protoss guessing, "will he all in or will he expand?". sure hatch first give you a better economy, but it is riskier and also makes the protoss skimp on defence. Meaning that 14 gas 14 pool is acraully good, but you need to know why it is good. it is good because it is easy to transison to roach allins or banling busts or similar if you see that the protos is not properly defended. | ||
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