On January 13 2012 17:35 Let it Raine wrote: standard logic is: if pros dont do it, then it sucks.
but that just isnt true. pro zergs still 14 gas 14 pool in zvp, and that sucks.
Yeah i kinda agree with this . Some builds that the pros use aren't effective or are outdated . The 14 gas 14 pool is a good build to all - in after it or play mind games on your opponent . If you are thinking of playing standart with it , it would put you economicaly behind to a forge - nexus before cannon . You sacrifice economy for map control that the protoss won't be fighting for at the time even if you use a more logical gassless 10 or overpool with expand . The players who use 14gas 14 pool either are paranoid of early game rushes or are thinking that are better then their opponents and will sacrifice economy to be safe early game and will end up behind either way .
I suppose the biggest problem is when you are at such a level where you, due to lack of knowledge and experience, can't justify the opinion of pro's. Even then though, I reccomend following their suggestions, as grand majority of them will help your learning process, through which you can then discover bad suggestions - playing without any outside guidance is going to slow that process.
I also wouldn't call it "suppressing creativity", this is purely my opinion, but I don't think you can really create anything awesome if you can't understand the reasons of why the pro is right/wrong, unless you posses an unholy amount of sheer luck. I would call it bad advice.
I disagree. There's plenty of room for creativity.
Every build we have today, is the result of the creativity of starcraft gamers. 99% of us won't develop a groundbreaking new build, but that doesn't stop the average joe from working his way to grandmaster and trialling and testing new builds.
And yes the most successful way to farm wins on the ladder is to execute a mimicked build to perfection but without creativity you can end up losing to stupid things simply because you weren't creative enough to adapt to your enemy.
I think where creativity really shines in sc2 though, is not in the builds but on battlefield tactics. Burrowed banelings, overlord scouting patterns, baiting your opponent into an ambush, that type of stuff. Creativity helps developing the perfect set ups to trap your enemy but it also helps in countering it. Just look at supply depot placement during the HELLion stage of the TvT metagame.
So yeah I would say that sc2 is a game that rewards creativity. What it doesn't reward is doing stupid things on a whim which is sometimes mistaken for "creativity".
@Dracolich70 - I could not have said it better myself. Thank you, sir!
@gamegene -
it's easy to say "hey this unit we should use it more."
it's hard to explain how.
you have to consider: how do i produce enough of these units for this to be effective? how can i transition out of this build so it isn't a 1 trick pony? what is the long term goal? is this less effective than standard? in what circumstances is this more potent? how do i survive common timings/reactions/moves by the other player?
constant scv production, unit production, efficient mechanics must always be constant.
that's why only professionals are qualified to showcase and revolutionize match ups/styles.
That's just the type of thinking i'm trying to stray from. The professionals are absolutely not the only ones qualified to revolutionize match-ups. To assume that is to say that everyone who doesn't make money from this game can't contribute anything to its progress. I, for one, use strategies i have never ever seen pro players use, and they work for me on the ladder. Now, they are meant for specific match-ups, but that doesn't mean i'm wrong for thinking them up and using them. Just because my macro isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy.
On January 13 2012 18:15 Priestt wrote: Just because my macro isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy.
actually that's exactly what it means. if you're playing subpar players, your build works because they're bad, not because your build is viable when both players are good.
On January 13 2012 18:15 Priestt wrote: @Dracolich70 - I could not have said it better myself. Thank you, sir! That's just the type of thinking i'm trying to stray from. The professionals are absolutely not the only ones qualified to revolutionize match-ups. To assume that is to say that everyone who doesn't make money from this game can't contribute anything to its progress. I, for one, use strategies i have never ever seen pro players use, and they work for me on the ladder. Now, they are meant for specific match-ups, but that doesn't mean i'm wrong for thinking them up and using them. Just because my macro isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy.
this is what we call "subjectivity"; results may vary; YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).
that's not a good thing. if you can win a game versus a player who (in all likelihood) not executing properly it means nothing.
you have to assume your opponent is playing competently.
Just because my macro isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not a viable strategy.
The problem here is that you're wrong, sorry. Stuff that works when executed by a player with sub-optimal macro against another player with sub-optimal macro is not an extensible strategy; you have no way of knowing that it's viable against a player with better macro. Something that works in lower leagues isn't a good strategy, it's an exploit of your opponents' poor mechanics. I could 3rax stim push to diamond (maybe even masters), but it will eventually stop working entirely because my opponents have just seen it too much and it's easily countered. You never ever ever see that build in pro games because despite the fact that it works in low leagues, it's just not viable against an opponent who knows how to scout and react, period.
Obviously there are some undiscovered builds out there, but do you really want to put your stock into practicing something that may or may not work up to a certain level of play? Seems silly to me to practice your way up to xx league and then hit a brick wall when your opponents are good enough.
Gas trick is old bro, works vs all races. Also pretty sure no one thinks they have the game all solved. It's just that lower level players aren't really in a reliable position to make actionable discoveries, so you can go ahead and do so if you want, it's just that 99% of the time you will think you discovered something glorious only to find that either 1) already known or 2) only works cause your opponents suck balls, else they wouldn't be in a low league.
So yes, shit can be found even in low level, but the chances against it are very high, so in the end you have a highly negative EV proposition.
Let me rephrase. Obviously if i'm playing a horrible player, a strat that isn't so good will work on them. That's not my point. My point is to try whatever works for you. If you do a build in gold and it works, and you get to platinum and you find out it's no longer viable, then maybe you should try something else. Corpuscle, you're so focussed on what works for pro players that you aren't thinking outside the box whatsoever. I don't know about you, but i would much rather practice a build that works until it's deemed no longer viable than practice the same boring cookie-cutter build over and over and ride that train.
And ... it's 99.99% (or more) certain that you will not, on your own, come up with a better opening in any matchup than Stephano, Dimaga, NesTea, MMA, MvP, MarineKing, Huk, MC or Oz (some of the better ones out there). It just won't happen. So if you copy their openings exactly, you will be better off than you are at the moment anyway.
Just so you know, HuK is not a creative player. Great player, and he can execute a build like the dickens, but he copies other builds that people come up with. Most pros are like that. Not every pro is a fucking genius. I don't believe for a second that less than 1% of the starcraft community should be coming up with everything. How is that any different than an autocracy?
If you're below Masters you should ABSOLUTELY NOT be trying to come up with your own ideas.
It's like martial arts. You don't sign up for a fucking martial arts class, walk up to the instructor on the first day and be all like, "hey man, these kata are like sooo limiting people's creativity man, I have lots of new ideas about how not to get stabbed in a street fight, they toootally work when I practice them against my 7 year old sister!"
You shut the fuck up and repeat the kata (what has been discovered to work through massive amounts of trial and error derived from the collective experience of hundreds of people way more badass than you will ever be) 1000 times a day for years. Then, once you have your black belt, you can BEGIN to experiment with some variations - because by then you actually have some real understanding of the fundamental mechanics.
This assumes, of course, that you are interested in achieving your HIGHEST POTENTIAL. If you just want to fuck around on ladder for your own amusement or to make yourself feel clever and feed your ego by coming up with your own "personal strats" while ultimately remaining trapped in mediocrity, then hey, do whatever you want.
On January 13 2012 18:36 Lakona wrote: Umm, no. This attitude is stupid. Sorry.
If you're below Masters you should ABSOLUTELY NOT be trying to come up with your own ideas.
It's like martial arts. You don't sign up for a fucking martial arts class, walk up to the instructor on the first day and be all like, "hey man, these kata are like sooo limiting people's creativity man, I have lots of new ideas about how not to get stabbed in a street fight, they toootally work when I practice them against my 7 year old sister!"
You shut the fuck up and repeat the kata (what has been discovered to work through massive amounts of trial and error derived from the collective experience of hundreds of people way more badass than you will ever be) 1000 times a day for years. Then, once you have your black belt, you can BEGIN to experiment with some variations - because by then you actually have some real understanding of the fundamental mechanics.
I focus on what the pros do because I don't want to be able to beat people who are bad, I want to be able to beat people who are really good. If something beats people in my league but not people in the league above me, it's a shit strategy that only works because I'm bad and my opponents are bad. I think it's a really flawed approach to assume that your opponent isn't going to be good and you can beat him/her because of it; I would rather assume that my opponent is the best player in the entire world and they make no mistakes, because that way I know that when I rank up and play someone who isn't floating 2k/1k when my timing attack hits, I still have a chance of it working.
edit: this is sort of tangential but am I the only one who watches a replay of themselves winning and gets pissed when I realize my opponent was just really bad? seriously, it sucks.
You are talking about human nature. Humans are ultimatly lazy creatures who would prefer to have someone walk them through something in order to gain the imminate benefits rather then discover and create for themselves, and even if they attempted it there is always a chance of failure. I for one do not have time to breakdown the game and invent multiple tactics and strategies just like I dont have the time to study medicine and become a doctor in order to treat my headache and muscle pains. As for the game, pro players used warcraft 3 and starcraft brood war as their blueprint for creating the meta-game. When they relised that stalkers were not dragoons then the game started to evolve, they did not create build orders for the sake of inventing something new, they made them in order to win and do their jobs.
On January 13 2012 18:29 Priestt wrote: Just so you know, HuK is not a creative player. Great player, and he can execute a build like the dickens, but he copies other builds that people come up with. Most pros are like that. Not every pro is a fucking genius. I don't believe for a second that less than 1% of the starcraft community should be coming up with everything. How is that any different than an autocracy?
What? Why would you want bad players coming up with builds that are not reliable/accountable? In all likelihood no one is going to want copy bad players either way.
And there actually IS a lot of creativity/preference in the upper levels. But it's EXTREMELY subtle (doing flashy retarded shit is retarded almost all of the time).
As a Terran player I notice strange little quirks players will do: making a reactor at a strange timing to conserve minerals for a hellion timing/expansion, using 3 reaper hit squads in the late game to clear our proxy pylons, get a thor early to make up for the lack of air control. It might not be obvious, but creativity is there if you're willing and capable/savvy enough to look for it.
On January 13 2012 18:36 Lakona wrote: Umm, no. This attitude is stupid. Sorry.
If you're below Masters you should ABSOLUTELY NOT be trying to come up with your own ideas.
It's like martial arts. You don't sign up for a fucking martial arts class, walk up to the instructor on the first day and be all like, "hey man, these kata are like sooo limiting people's creativity man, I have lots of new ideas about how not to get stabbed in a street fight, they toootally work when I practice them against my 7 year old sister!"
You shut the fuck up and repeat the kata (what has been discovered to work through massive amounts of trial and error derived from the collective experience of hundreds of people way more badass than you will ever be) 1000 times a day for years. Then, once you have your black belt, you can BEGIN to experiment with some variations - because by then you actually have some real understanding of the fundamental mechanics.
This assumes, of course, that you are interested in achieving your HIGHEST POTENTIAL. If you just want to fuck around on ladder for your own amusement or to make yourself feel clever and feed your ego by coming up with your own "personal strats" while ultimately remaining trapped in mediocrity, then hey, do whatever you want.
Holy fuck this guy does not mince words. Cold and hard. Kudos.
If you're below Masters you should ABSOLUTELY NOT be trying to come up with your own ideas.
It's like martial arts. You don't sign up for a fucking martial arts class, walk up to the instructor on the first day and be all like, "hey man, these kata are like sooo limiting people's creativity man, I have lots of new ideas about how not to get stabbed in a street fight, they toootally work when I practice them against my 7 year old sister!"
You shut the fuck up and repeat the kata (what has been discovered to work through massive amounts of trial and error derived from the collective experience of hundreds of people way more badass than you will ever be) 1000 times a day for years. Then, once you have your black belt, you can BEGIN to experiment with some variations - because by then you actually have some real understanding of the fundamental mechanics.
This is exactly the type of thinking that is detrimental to the community. To believe that you can only begin to use the right side of your brain once you have hit masters is OUTRAGEOUS. I am shocked and appalled that you even believe that.
Oh, and your karate analogy is bullshit. How many different forms of kung fu are there? Can you tell me that? Each one of them has their own form of fighting and defense. Just because the katas in shito ryu are different than in shotokan, doesn't make either one wrong.
On January 13 2012 18:29 Priestt wrote:How is that any different than an autocracy?
There seems to be a trend recently of people relating politics to SC where it just doesn't work :S
Noone is saying that only pros should make builds. You're perfectly welcome to go on ladder in any league and do whatever the fuck you like. (EDIT: Without cheating, obviously) You paid for the game just like we did.
The thing is, though, that 99% (yay for making up numbers!) of builds suck. I can Ultra rush if I want to, but that doesn't stop it being awful. That's why people look to pros for guidance on what to do, because pros understand better than we do what is good and what has potential to be good if worked on.
To compare the SC2 scene to an autocracy is frankly laughable.
I think there's a lot of truth in the OP. It is very easy to mimic a pro's build without understanding why it works. Ultimately you can try and copy the pro's play, but that doesn't really teach you how to play, it just teaches you how to execute a one-dimesional build. The only way you will understand why the pro's do things a certain way is by trying it other ways to see what happens. If you don't try other things, then your game knowledge will be shallow and unable to deal with out of the ordinary situations.
Game knowledge is a big part of winning any game, just as important as mechanics. If all you do is hammer out specific, linear builds, then you will lose to people with the same mechanics who actually understand the game.
I didn't read most of the replies, only the OP, and I felt this way too, even with BW. However, I play the game for my entertainment. I don't aim to get good, or become a pro player. I just play to have fun, and I learned the game not from watching replays or vods, but rather through just getting online and play. I was able to have alot of fun, and funnily enough, as I progressed, my style was gradually looking similar to the pro's as far as what works and which counters what, etc..
Point I'm trying to say is: yeah, I went the long road experimenting on my own to reach the same destination that I would have if I was religiously watching and copying strategies from replays/vods. But I'm proud to say that every minute that I played SC, it was with enjoyment, not with repetitious practice that would become too laborous and boring for something that's supposed to give me entertainment.
While some would argue that it's more fun when you're good, I beg to differ. It's more fun when you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. That's how I play my games, and that's how I think people should too.
If you're below Masters you should ABSOLUTELY NOT be trying to come up with your own ideas.
It's like martial arts. You don't sign up for a fucking martial arts class, walk up to the instructor on the first day and be all like, "hey man, these kata are like sooo limiting people's creativity man, I have lots of new ideas about how not to get stabbed in a street fight, they toootally work when I practice them against my 7 year old sister!"
You shut the fuck up and repeat the kata (what has been discovered to work through massive amounts of trial and error derived from the collective experience of hundreds of people way more badass than you will ever be) 1000 times a day for years. Then, once you have your black belt, you can BEGIN to experiment with some variations - because by then you actually have some real understanding of the fundamental mechanics.
This is exactly the type of thinking that is detrimental to the community. To believe that you can only begin to use the right side of your brain once you have hit masters is OUTRAGEOUS. I am shocked and appalled that you even believe that.
Oh, and your karate analogy is bullshit. How many different forms of kung fu are there? Can you tell me that? Each one of them has their own form of fighting and defense. Just because the katas in shito ryu are different than in shotokan, doesn't make either one wrong.
His point is not that either one is wrong, only that to think coming up with your own builds while you still suck at the game (sorry, but if you're plat you suck really bad) is either
1) You don't care that you're almost certainly wasting your time if you actually plan on improving.
2) You're playing for fun and don't give a shit that you're wasting your time
Now I don't care if you're playing for fun, that's fine, but if you actually think you're not wasting your time by trying to do all your own builds at such a low level, then I've got nothing I can say I guess, if you can't see the obvious.
Really though, it's hard to appreciate how absolutely terrible one's mode of analysis and thinking is until one reaches higher levels. Then you look back and are like, wow, I was such a retard back then. Can't even begin to think right. You can get lucky sure, anyone can get lucky, but your EV is highly negative.
On January 13 2012 18:44 Authweight wrote: I think there's a lot of truth in the OP. It is very easy to mimic a pro's build without understanding why it works. Ultimately you can try and copy the pro's play, but that doesn't really teach you how to play, it just teaches you how to execute a one-dimesional build. The only way you will understand why the pro's do things a certain way is by trying it other ways to see what happens. If you don't try other things, then your game knowledge will be shallow and unable to deal with out of the ordinary situations.
Game knowledge is a big part of winning any game, just as important as mechanics. If all you do is hammer out specific, linear builds, then you will lose to people with the same mechanics who actually understand the game.
No, what you do is watch a lot of replays of pros doing the build you're doing, and see how they react to various things from their opponent. If you blindly try to copy a pro replay past a certain point, yeah, you're a stupid copycat who has no idea what they're actually doing, but nobody is saying to do that. When people say "imitate the pros" they mean that you should carefully observe their reactions to various builds and adjust your play accordingly, rather than just go "mma drops at 10:30 in this game therefore i will always drop at 10:30 always."
EPT
