EPTBlizzard's map team and positional imbalance. - Page 3
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Hydrox911
United Kingdom261 Posts
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
Give us assymmetry! War isnt meant to be an event contest? Give us island maps! Give us maps where we are seperated by destructible rocks! | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 21 2011 08:06 BioTech wrote: Do we really want perfectly even maps?! Give us assymmetry! War isnt meant to be an event contest? Give us island maps! Give us maps where we are seperated by destructible rocks! Give us a game where people stop playing because it's imbalanced! Seriously though Starcraft was one of the first RTS's to perfect asymetic balancing and it's also really the only RTS to become an esport. That's not a coincidence. Maps need to be balanced. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
Sometimes it feels like Blizzard really wants the community to adopt custom maps because making new maps costs them money, but somehow tournaments organizers don't want to take the responsibility to use different maps and keep Blizzard wasting money on new maps. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
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Lysergic
United States355 Posts
I don't think any of their maps are symmetrical, every main/natural is differently sized and has small differences that make it annoying to figure out building placement and gives certain races/players advantages based on where they spawn. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On December 21 2011 08:05 Hydrox911 wrote: Can someone confirm that this doesn't happen on alot of community maps aswell. Is this a fault of blizzards maps or the editor itself. I'm not sure about the whole gas thing. At least in 2p maps and 4p mirrored this shouldn't happen at all, but it could happen in 4p rotational or 3p (haven't heard about it tho). But there is definitely a lot less positional imbalance overall in community maps. Only some doodads are placed differently, but that doesn't rly matter a lot. | ||
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Sableyeah
Netherlands2119 Posts
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
On December 21 2011 00:06 luck_star21 wrote: at the very least the spawn points should be equal (like arids are) =/ id suspected this was happening, especially on metal Only problem is Arid is probably the worst map ever. | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
to put it like a WoW friend of mine did once about speccing and gearing properly "alot of little numbers make a big number" ive also seen a thread about how larva that pops off hatch opposite to minerals can be as much as a 10% (not completely sure) difference in income. now take the geysers into account too and all of a sudden it seems like a very big deal to me that someone could be down so many resources because a map wasn't balanced right. all other arguments aside its not like this is something that actually requires the fundamental game code to be changed to be fixed. it can be fixed by any decent map maker in a very short time. im not sure how this would affect mineral patches in some maps but im sure many players would prefer their gas geysers to all mine consistently then their mineral patches. as far as im concerned i will continue to trust blizzard to strive for balance perfection as they work their way down the list of imbalances and continue to belive in the theory that alot of small numbers make a big number. edit; just wnt to clarify that i know the side a lava spawns on a hatchery cant be fixed by map design | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 21 2011 08:24 Phanekim wrote: i mean seriously, what do you expect from blizzard. they really blow at making maps. however, they are still the best company at making rts...sad to say. Yeah this is very true. By RTS game low standards Blizzard are phenomenal but by our standards they make some obvious mistakes. I think it's about time they passed map making over to the community. They could have voting on the maps each reset so we at least get a rotation. I mean I don't ladder very often but I went to ladder after 3-4 months out and I'm shocked.... there are 3 maps that are still identical, there are still positional imbalances and there are still terribly balanced maps. It's really bad. How can you play ladder consistently knowing this? No wonder IdrA leaves when Ganzi takes the gold expansion. Everyone knows that Terran muling gold expansion is just overpowered hence why GSL took the gold expos out.... so why even bother playing ladder in that ridiculous situation? | ||
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Nazeron
Canada1046 Posts
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
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bounca
140 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:41 Lebzetu wrote: Does this really matter that much? Its the gas amount of one or two stalkers, not a big deal. That can decide a game. So it is a big deal | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:31 Klive5ive wrote: Yeah this is very true. By RTS game low standards Blizzard are phenomenal but by our standards they make some obvious mistakes. I think it's about time they passed map making over to the community. They could have voting on the maps each reset so we at least get a rotation. I mean I don't ladder very often but I went to ladder after 3-4 months out and I'm shocked.... there are 3 maps that are still identical, there are still positional imbalances and there are still terribly balanced maps. It's really bad. How can you play ladder consistently knowing this? No wonder IdrA leaves when Ganzi takes the gold expansion. Everyone knows that Terran muling gold expansion is just overpowered hence why GSL took the gold expos out.... so why even bother playing ladder in that ridiculous situation? its more a zerg reason why golds got removed and less a mule reason (well it was a terran reason as well but not really mules). And its interesting that tournament maps often pick up things introduced in Blizzard maps. And balanced map wise there were alot of failures in the tournaments, while Blizzard maps are really persistent in tournaments. So i doubt they don't know what they are doing. I consider the bad bad blizzard maps a myth, that came into existence because they kept the laddermaps different in style, so everyone hated one+ map. And starting position imbalances is nothing new in blizzard maps, its acutally often wanted and adds to the map, but i can understand why people want to be able to open every map the same way until the 30 supply mark, without thinking on which position they started. Well the more imbalanced the map is the better it is anyway, because it makes games more fun if every race has some spots to abuse on the map. And imo Blizzard is doing a good job on adding things to the map that favor one race, so the overall balance gets shifted to 50%. Playing custom maps though, mostly because they look better ^^. The Ladder maps are optimized for performance, so weaker pcs can play them. I like Xel naga caverns by the way. Loved by all zergs at the start, saying this is the map and now betrayed as the terran super favored map. And its mostly only because the standard strategies changed in zvt, while the map stayed the same. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:20 Sableyeah wrote: It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient. at first i was like, darn, time to memorize which gasses not to take... then i realized this xD On December 21 2011 09:43 bounca wrote: That can decide a game. So it is a big deal But it's like 2 stalkers in gas difference when the geyser is MINED OUT. That's like 15 minutes into the game. 2 stalkers at that time can make a big difference yes, but there are a lot of other factors that aren't equal like the map not being perfectly symmetrical, or mineral patches being farther away as well, etc. | ||
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SoulWager
United States464 Posts
On December 21 2011 10:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: at first i was like, darn, time to memorize which gasses not to take... then i realized this xD But it's like 2 stalkers in gas difference when the geyser is MINED OUT. That's like 15 minutes into the game. 2 stalkers at that time can make a big difference yes, but there are a lot of other factors that aren't equal like the map not being perfectly symmetrical, or mineral patches being farther away as well, etc. the issue isn't that you get fewer stalkers 20 minutes into the game, as much as that all of your gas requiring units/tech are delayed, and that that delay grows as the game goes on. Currently testing the GSL maps. There are some issues, but, so far, none as bad as meta or entombed valley. | ||
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SoulWager
United States464 Posts
On December 21 2011 09:20 Sableyeah wrote: It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient. Usually yes, though there are exceptions, such as arid wastes, where the diagonal one is closer, but mines slower ( distance ~2.83 tiles mines slower than the one at ~3 tiles) The easy rule is that diagonals are bad, straight up/down or straight east/west is good. | ||
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SoulWager
United States464 Posts
GSL Belshir beach (winter): all mains, naturals OK GSL Crossfire SE (official): top main left geyser 28 gas remaining GSL Daybreak (official): all mains OK right natural right geyser 92 gas remaining left natural left geyser 56 gas remaining GSL Dual Sight: all mains, naturals OK GSL Antiga shipyard: all mains OK Top left natural bottom geyser 176 gas remaining bottom left natural right geyser 176 gas remaining bottom right natural top geyser 156 gas remaining top right natural top geyser 176 gas remaining GSL Tal'Darim Altar(official): top right main left geyser 28 gas remaining bottom left natural right geyser 56 gas remaining bottom right natural top geyser 176 gas remaining top right natural left geyser 56 gas remaining top left natural bottom geyser 176 gas remaining GSL Calm before the storm: top left main right geyser 88 gas remaining top right main left geyser 28 gas remaining top left back natural left geyser 28 gas remaining top left back natural right geyser 188 top right back natural bottom geyser 88 gas remaining bottom right back natural left geyser 176 gas remaining bottom left back natural top geyser 56 gas remaining top left front natural top geyser 28 gas remaining top right front natural top geyser 88 gas remaining | ||
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