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A couple months ago, In the relative obscurity of the blizzard bug report forum, I posted this thread on the positional imbalance of geysers in ladder maps: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3430939232
Despite including detailed information on which parts of which maps needed to be fixed, and exactly how to place geysers to avoid this imbalance, none of the old maps have been fixed, and the new maps have exactly the same problems. Which leads me to believe this won't get fixed without a push from the community.
Here's an example of problematic geysers on the new ladder map, Entombed Valley, where the rate geysers mine with 3 probes varies by as much as 6%:
http://imgur.com/a/cU59L
Note how all the geysers requiring 4 probes mine at different rates with 3, with the player in the bottom left having a significant advantage.
The good news is that at least 1 gas in every main can be mined w/ just 3 probes, so in the meantime. I suggest everyone learn which geysers can be mined w/ 3, so they don't set themselves behind by taking the wrong geyser first. These are the gasses to avoid taking first in tight openings:
Old ladder maps(these appear unchanged, correct me if they fixed any of them):
Xel'Naga caverns:
top main left geyser 28 gas remaining.
Abyssal caverns:
bottom left main right geyser 176 gas remaining
top right main left geyser 176 gas remaining
Antiga Shipyards:
All mains OK
Metalopolis:
top main top geyser 56 gas remaining
right main right geyser 184 gas remaining
bottom main bottom geyser 96 gas remaining
left main left geyser 176 gas remaining
Nerazim Crypt:
top left main right geyser 64 gas remaining
top right main left geyser 176 gas remaining
bottom left main right geyser 172 gas remaining
bottom right main left geyser 56 gas remaining
Shakuras:
All mains OK
Tal'darim Altar:
top left main right geyser 88 gas remaining
top right main left geyser 28 gas remaining
Shattered Temple:
All mains OK
New ladder maps:
Arid Plateau:
bottom main left geyser 56 gas remaining
top main right geyser 56 gas remaining
Entombed Valley:
top left main right geyser 156 gas remaining
bottom left main right geyser 56 gas remaining
bottom right main left geyser 188 gas remaining
top right main left geyser 148 gas remaining
(all measurements taken at the time a perfectly mined geyser would have just depleted ± 4 gas)
Taken alone I could chalk this up to a failure of communication, but given other indications of the map team's understanding of how design impacts balance(close spawns anyone?), I worry about the quality of future maps. So I think we need better ways to improve and publicize community maps(for example, each tournament could ask the top finishing player of each race to nominate a new community map for the next season, subject to refinement and balance fixes), and we need to pressure blizzard to fix the obvious problems with current and future ladder maps.
Edit: compare to GSL maps here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296636¤tpage=3#60
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there's an issue with the placing of geysers. they have a very 'quirky' footprint (from using square grids) and results in not so perfect positioning of geysers. to fix this, you'd need to move the geyser all around the place to find the right distance, possibly spread out minerals even more, but in the end, it messes up with the 'natural look' of the resource line.
i agree they could do a bit better job with it.
at the same time, i wish you people would stop supporting blizzard's maps. time and time again they have proven they make fucking terrible maps. favouring the community made maps can ensure fast resolution of issues like these (if possible), help to get community maps on the ladder, and play less of these imbalanced pieces of crap.
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I hate this so much. They even do this with mineral patches some maps and positions have 6 far and 2 close and some are 4 close and 4 far
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On December 20 2011 23:58 a176 wrote:
there's an issue with the placing of geysers. they have a very 'quirky' footprint (from using square grids) and results in not so perfect positioning of geysers. to fix this, you'd need to move the geyser all around the place to find the right distance, possibly spread out minerals even more, but in the end, it messes up with the 'natural look' of the resource line.
Just use a square angles for geysers!
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Lol, I didn't even know there were gases where 4 workers is more efficient.. being a zerg, that's a punch in the face, would have helped quite a bit when going muta.
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at the very least the spawn points should be equal (like arids are) =/
id suspected this was happening, especially on metal
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On December 20 2011 23:58 a176 wrote:
there's an issue with the placing of geysers. they have a very 'quirky' footprint (from using square grids) and results in not so perfect positioning of geysers. to fix this, you'd need to move the geyser all around the place to find the right distance, possibly spread out minerals even more, but in the end, it messes up with the 'natural look' of the resource line.
If the gas would overlap the CC/Hatch/Nex if moved straight vertically or straight horizontally, it will mine perfectly with 3(assuming it's 3 tiles away). If it would touch but not overlap, it will still mine with 3 with the exception of the top 2 possible spots. The rest will all require 4.
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Wow I didn't realise this... this would make a pretty big difference on ZvZ/PvP I guess
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Yeah this is not professional and definitely needs to be fixed, having mining consistency across all base and expo mineral & gas patches should really be a no-brainer.
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Canada13389 Posts
Huh well that is huge for mirror matchups actually. Wow.
This needs to be fixed quickly :x
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While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
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On December 20 2011 23:58 a176 wrote:
at the same time, i wish you people would stop supporting blizzard's maps. time and time again they have proven they make fucking terrible maps. favouring the community made maps can ensure fast resolution of issues like these (if possible), help to get community maps on the ladder, and play less of these imbalanced pieces of crap.
There's this cool tournament in Korea called the GSL, and they employ their own mapmakers to create good maps for tournament play. Maybe, just maybe, Blizzard will wise up and realize that THOSE are the maps that belong in the ladder pool.
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On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences.
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I think one big mistake with some maps are that even though they seem symmetrical, they're rotationally symmetrical instead of mirrorized symmetrical, which can lead to positional imbalance on some maps in certain matchups with clockwise/counter-clockwise spawns, like TvZ on Tal'Darim.
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+1 soulwager
User was warned for this post
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On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences.
So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
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It's something like a %10 difference in gas income for a farther geyser. It's pretty significant.
Having said that, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing if it appears in all spawn positions. If it only appears in some spawns, it is a huge imbalance and should be fixed for certain.
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Hmm, never did the math about gas income on each base location, interesting stuff. Good job doing this math, hope to see this changed.
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On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
I agree, more or less. This isn't a huge imbalance or anything. I think the biggest difference was like 188 gas or something, which is a lot, but that's by the time the other gas is mined out (if I'm reading this correctly), which is pretty well into the game; much past the time of 1 bling or 1 sentry saving a push. I think SC2 really allows people to observe it closely, so we notice things like the gasses not taking the same amount of time, or that we can make probes mine faster at the beginning of the game with some right clicking, but they don't make a huge difference.
Mechanics and strategy will be more important than how well your gasses line up until extremely high levels of play. If you played 100% mechanically and strategically correct, and so did your opponent, and you lost by 1 bling or 1 sentry, I'd let this argument suffice as a reason why you lost. But if I can find you getting supply blocked or positioning your army incorrectly, I'm not going to accept this as an excuse.
However, I have noticed this OP. You can see your scvs/probes/drones a little more spaced out on the gasses that are farther away from your main. I've never put much thought into it, but it does remind me of an old BW map where the gas at the main was better mined with 4 workers instead of 3, just because it was placed too far away from the main. Don't remember the maps name, or when it was played on, but I remember watching a female progamer play on it. So I don't really think gas placement needs to be perfect, SC2 just makes it too easy for the average player to find little mistakes like this so they can blame their loses on it.
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On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
Every player at every spawn can manually force workers to closer mineral patches. These gas geysers are random and not player choice. And, insignificant or not, it's part of a larger issue where Blizzard continues to ignore clearly superior maps. Why should we be satisfied with their maps when we can immediately point to better ones?
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I knew this was an issue on certain metalopolis geyers, enough to mess up sentry openings in a noticable way (stalker-sentry-sentry, or 1 gate expand with chrono'd gate vs zerg) but this is bad.
So many messed up geysers, so many map, and 6% is a REALLY REALLY BIG DEAL in every protoss matchup, probably affects zerg quite a lot too if they take the wrong first geyser.
Should be fixed immediately, but then again we still dont have supply depots on ladder map ramps either...
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So are there stats for the community maps that don't have this problem? Is it a problem with fundamental game design (e.g. hexes) or the mapmaker's fault? It would probably be good to know for sure before blaming Blizzard for both, unless it actually is both, or more.
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good find. I hope this, along with many of the other glaring deficiencies, gets resolved
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We really need community-made maps and a community-made ladder that actually reflects skill a la ICCUP.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On December 21 2011 06:46 Ansinjunger wrote:
So are there stats for the community maps that don't have this problem? Is it a problem with fundamental game design (e.g. hexes) or the mapmaker's fault? It would probably be good to know for sure before blaming Blizzard for both, unless it actually is both, or more.
Blizzard is placing the geysers too far away from the nexus on some spawns but not others to mine to full capacity with 3 workers. The hexes are not the actual cause of the problem, though they could make it harder to place properly. The gas positions were not tested, they were just thrown down and assumed to work properly
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On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
I agree with this. Anything below pro level is not even worth the discussion. Even at pro level where everyone trying everything to squeeze out any bit of advantage, I'd seriously doubt that this geyser issue would be the major contributor to any win/loss.
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there's a reason ALL original blizzard maps were replaced by community with better resources layout in bw.
did they not learn anything?
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On December 21 2011 07:00 FADCoUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. I agree with this. Anything below pro level is not even worth the discussion. Even at pro level where everyone trying everything to squeeze out any bit of advantage, I'd seriously doubt that this geyser issue would be the major contributor to any win/loss.
If you take that gas and go 1gate robo, your sentry will be like 5 seconds later in pvp. There are too many timings that are disrupted by a drop in gas income
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The only benefit here is raised collective awareness, which would ideally evoke corrective action on Blizzard's part.
Bashing Blizzard does nothing. We've already seen, time and time again, how amateur they can be. Their incompetence is nothing new.
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Brood War had this same problem. But luckily there were Korean map makers to save us.
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I think there might be some pretty big consequences you don't notice due to all the complexity and margins of human error. How many times does a player have +1 hitting in the middle of a crucial battle? In general a lot of upgrades have pretty clutch timings occassionally.
Obviously a lot of stuff can be avoided through refined player actions and adjusting timings a bit, but it's still something that should definitely be fixed.
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It's quite impressive how bad blizzard are at making maps after so many years in the rts-genre. The rule of thumb, for knowing whether you're dealing with a blizzard map, is unfortunately to ask: Is it ugly? If yes, blizzard made it. That they are unable to make maps balanced for different spawning positions, or even to correct their mistakes, is just straight up embarrassing.
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good job picking up on this.
hope its fixed asap
better yet, i hope blizzard stop trying to make their own maps.
YOU ARE BAD AT IT BLIZZARD, USE THE GSL MAPS FFS!!
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You are just making a big deal of something that has no noticeable impact on the game.
When the mineral lines is above your hatchery, you loose some mining time because the mineral patch are further from your larva.
As terran, depending on the ramp position, you may or may not have to lift your barracks to build an add on.
The walking duration is nether exactly symetrical between all the possible bases.
etc. etc. etc;
Your first banshee might come a couple of second later because you needed 4 more gas to build the factory... Yeah, in theory 2s may make a huge difference, but in practice there are like 100 other factors that can dely you that much.
So yeah, nobody should care, unless you want an excuse to criticize Blizzard's maps.
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Ah, how far we've come, that +/- 5 gas in the early game is the subject of heated balance debate, rather than "his tanks can hit my natural from his natural" or "he put buildings/units in a spot on the map i can never feasibly get to"
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I think I noticed this very early on Metalopolis. I don't believe it makes a difference much since your first geyser is the one that really matters and most players recognize one geyser on most maps as being the better option for your first geyser.
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this really needs to be looked at and fixed, as well as the bigger picture of these bullshit maps they give us. i literally can't believe after what almost 6 months we got 2 new maps? are you serious blizzard? i mean honestly wtf is this bullshit, not only does your battle.net service not allow me to queue up for any custom game but lost temple, but 2 new maps, and 0 new maps last season. Every season should have ALL NEW MAPS... or atleast get off your asses and fix the god damn custom games so that i can play on a map besides shattered temple and xel'naga /rant
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When I as a newby I used to 4 in sometimes to juice gas production, I convinced myself I was wrong, but maybe I wasn't?
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Someone should do a summary about all the positional imbalances in Blizzard maps.
Gonna be a lot of work but people need to be aware of how horrible Blizz is at mapmaking and that they don't even think symmetry is important lol
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On December 21 2011 08:00 Ragoo wrote:
Someone should do a summary about all the positional imbalances in Blizzard maps.
Gonna be a lot of work but people need to be aware of how horrible Blizz is at mapmaking and that they don't even think symmetry is important lol
Community feels like the only ones that can do something, because Blizzard surely won't.
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Can someone confirm that this doesn't happen on alot of community maps aswell. Is this a fault of blizzards maps or the editor itself.
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Do we really want perfectly even maps?!
Give us assymmetry! War isnt meant to be an event contest?
Give us island maps!
Give us maps where we are seperated by destructible rocks!
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i mean seriously, what do you expect from blizzard. they really blow at making maps. however, they are still the best company at making rts...sad to say.
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On December 21 2011 08:06 BioTech wrote:
Do we really want perfectly even maps?!
Give us assymmetry! War isnt meant to be an event contest?
Give us island maps!
Give us maps where we are seperated by destructible rocks!
Give us a game where people stop playing because it's imbalanced!
Seriously though Starcraft was one of the first RTS's to perfect asymetic balancing and it's also really the only RTS to become an esport. That's not a coincidence. Maps need to be balanced.
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I'm more worried about Antiga Shipyard's top right position where you need 1 more building to wall in.
Sometimes it feels like Blizzard really wants the community to adopt custom maps because making new maps costs them money, but somehow tournaments organizers don't want to take the responsibility to use different maps and keep Blizzard wasting money on new maps.
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Blizzard has always had a problem with symmetry for some reason. Metalopolis still makes me cringe.
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They also need to make there maps symmetrical. You have to completely change the way you wall-off on certain maps, such as Antiga Shipyard - the number of spaces from bottom of the ramp to the Nexus is different depending where you spawn. I think it's why pros usually wall at the wide natural ramp when they spawn bottom left. But when they spawn top left they can easily wall next to the natural Nexus because the space works better.
I don't think any of their maps are symmetrical, every main/natural is differently sized and has small differences that make it annoying to figure out building placement and gives certain races/players advantages based on where they spawn.
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On December 21 2011 08:05 Hydrox911 wrote:
Can someone confirm that this doesn't happen on alot of community maps aswell. Is this a fault of blizzards maps or the editor itself.
I'm not sure about the whole gas thing. At least in 2p maps and 4p mirrored this shouldn't happen at all, but it could happen in 4p rotational or 3p (haven't heard about it tho).
But there is definitely a lot less positional imbalance overall in community maps. Only some doodads are placed differently, but that doesn't rly matter a lot.
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It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient.
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On December 21 2011 00:06 luck_star21 wrote:
at the very least the spawn points should be equal (like arids are) =/
id suspected this was happening, especially on metal
Only problem is Arid is probably the worst map ever.
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one of the fundamental concepts of a strategy game is about gaining as many small advantages as your can. catz is a very good example of this. he can be walled into his main, tech to lair, produce 4-5 mutas and constantly pick off 1 or 2 workers to find himself at an economic advantage.
to put it like a WoW friend of mine did once about speccing and gearing properly "alot of little numbers make a big number"
ive also seen a thread about how larva that pops off hatch opposite to minerals can be as much as a 10% (not completely sure) difference in income. now take the geysers into account too and all of a sudden it seems like a very big deal to me that someone could be down so many resources because a map wasn't balanced right.
all other arguments aside its not like this is something that actually requires the fundamental game code to be changed to be fixed. it can be fixed by any decent map maker in a very short time. im not sure how this would affect mineral patches in some maps but im sure many players would prefer their gas geysers to all mine consistently then their mineral patches.
as far as im concerned i will continue to trust blizzard to strive for balance perfection as they work their way down the list of imbalances and continue to belive in the theory that alot of small numbers make a big number.
edit; just wnt to clarify that i know the side a lava spawns on a hatchery cant be fixed by map design
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On December 21 2011 08:24 Phanekim wrote:
i mean seriously, what do you expect from blizzard. they really blow at making maps. however, they are still the best company at making rts...sad to say.
Yeah this is very true.
By RTS game low standards Blizzard are phenomenal but by our standards they make some obvious mistakes. I think it's about time they passed map making over to the community. They could have voting on the maps each reset so we at least get a rotation.
I mean I don't ladder very often but I went to ladder after 3-4 months out and I'm shocked.... there are 3 maps that are still identical, there are still positional imbalances and there are still terribly balanced maps.
It's really bad. How can you play ladder consistently knowing this?
No wonder IdrA leaves when Ganzi takes the gold expansion. Everyone knows that Terran muling gold expansion is just overpowered hence why GSL took the gold expos out.... so why even bother playing ladder in that ridiculous situation?
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wow, thats pretty crazy, thnx for the write up. wouldnt have had any idea that there was positional imbalance. hopefully blizz fixes this asap, wonder how much of a difference this makes in the professional scene
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Does this really matter that much? Its the gas amount of one or two stalkers, not a big deal.
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On December 21 2011 09:41 Lebzetu wrote:
Does this really matter that much? Its the gas amount of one or two stalkers, not a big deal.
That can decide a game. So it is a big deal
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On December 21 2011 09:31 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 08:24 Phanekim wrote:
i mean seriously, what do you expect from blizzard. they really blow at making maps. however, they are still the best company at making rts...sad to say. Yeah this is very true. By RTS game low standards Blizzard are phenomenal but by our standards they make some obvious mistakes. I think it's about time they passed map making over to the community. They could have voting on the maps each reset so we at least get a rotation. I mean I don't ladder very often but I went to ladder after 3-4 months out and I'm shocked.... there are 3 maps that are still identical, there are still positional imbalances and there are still terribly balanced maps. It's really bad. How can you play ladder consistently knowing this? No wonder IdrA leaves when Ganzi takes the gold expansion. Everyone knows that Terran muling gold expansion is just overpowered hence why GSL took the gold expos out.... so why even bother playing ladder in that ridiculous situation?
its more a zerg reason why golds got removed and less a mule reason (well it was a terran reason as well but not really mules). And its interesting that tournament maps often pick up things introduced in Blizzard maps. And balanced map wise there were alot of failures in the tournaments, while Blizzard maps are really persistent in tournaments. So i doubt they don't know what they are doing. I consider the bad bad blizzard maps a myth, that came into existence because they kept the laddermaps different in style, so everyone hated one+ map.
And starting position imbalances is nothing new in blizzard maps, its acutally often wanted and adds to the map, but i can understand why people want to be able to open every map the same way until the 30 supply mark, without thinking on which position they started.
Well the more imbalanced the map is the better it is anyway, because it makes games more fun if every race has some spots to abuse on the map. And imo Blizzard is doing a good job on adding things to the map that favor one race, so the overall balance gets shifted to 50%. Playing custom maps though, mostly because they look better ^^. The Ladder maps are optimized for performance, so weaker pcs can play them.
I like Xel naga caverns by the way. Loved by all zergs at the start, saying this is the map and now betrayed as the terran super favored map. And its mostly only because the standard strategies changed in zvt, while the map stayed the same.
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On December 21 2011 09:20 Sableyeah wrote:
It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient.
at first i was like, darn, time to memorize which gasses not to take... then i realized this xD
On December 21 2011 09:43 bounca wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 09:41 Lebzetu wrote:
Does this really matter that much? Its the gas amount of one or two stalkers, not a big deal. That can decide a game. So it is a big deal
But it's like 2 stalkers in gas difference when the geyser is MINED OUT. That's like 15 minutes into the game. 2 stalkers at that time can make a big difference yes, but there are a lot of other factors that aren't equal like the map not being perfectly symmetrical, or mineral patches being farther away as well, etc.
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On December 21 2011 10:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 09:20 Sableyeah wrote:
It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient.
at first i was like, darn, time to memorize which gasses not to take... then i realized this xD Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 09:43 bounca wrote:On December 21 2011 09:41 Lebzetu wrote:
Does this really matter that much? Its the gas amount of one or two stalkers, not a big deal. That can decide a game. So it is a big deal But it's like 2 stalkers in gas difference when the geyser is MINED OUT. That's like 15 minutes into the game. 2 stalkers at that time can make a big difference yes, but there are a lot of other factors that aren't equal like the map not being perfectly symmetrical, or mineral patches being farther away as well, etc.
the issue isn't that you get fewer stalkers 20 minutes into the game, as much as that all of your gas requiring units/tech are delayed, and that that delay grows as the game goes on.
Currently testing the GSL maps. There are some issues, but, so far, none as bad as meta or entombed valley.
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On December 21 2011 09:20 Sableyeah wrote:
It's so easy to spot, the one that's closer, usually using your eyes is sufficient.
Usually yes, though there are exceptions, such as arid wastes, where the diagonal one is closer, but mines slower ( distance ~2.83 tiles mines slower than the one at ~3 tiles) The easy rule is that diagonals are bad, straight up/down or straight east/west is good.
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Just took a look at gas on the GSL maps mains and naturals. The biggest problem in the mains is an 88 gas difference on calm before the storm, while some of the naturals on some maps have up to a 132 gas difference between spawn locations. Calm before the storm has a significant problem in the sheer number of inefficient geysers in top left vs the one marginally inefficient geyser in bottom left. Is 276 gas significant in a 3base vs 3base situation?
GSL Belshir beach (winter):
all mains, naturals OK
GSL Crossfire SE (official):
top main left geyser 28 gas remaining
GSL Daybreak (official):
all mains OK
right natural right geyser 92 gas remaining
left natural left geyser 56 gas remaining
GSL Dual Sight:
all mains, naturals OK
GSL Antiga shipyard:
all mains OK
Top left natural bottom geyser 176 gas remaining
bottom left natural right geyser 176 gas remaining
bottom right natural top geyser 156 gas remaining
top right natural top geyser 176 gas remaining
GSL Tal'Darim Altar(official):
top right main left geyser 28 gas remaining
bottom left natural right geyser 56 gas remaining
bottom right natural top geyser 176 gas remaining
top right natural left geyser 56 gas remaining
top left natural bottom geyser 176 gas remaining
GSL Calm before the storm:
top left main right geyser 88 gas remaining
top right main left geyser 28 gas remaining
top left back natural left geyser 28 gas remaining
top left back natural right geyser 188
top right back natural bottom geyser 88 gas remaining
bottom right back natural left geyser 176 gas remaining
bottom left back natural top geyser 56 gas remaining
top left front natural top geyser 28 gas remaining
top right front natural top geyser 88 gas remaining
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Since tournaments usually use their own version of these maps, I think we can already fix these issues in tournament play.
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I'd like to see this fixed in Ladder vesions though
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Well, even if this doesn't get fixed in ladder maps, it needs to be brought to the attention of people that make tournament maps.
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i always knew metal had really shit gas imbalances. they really need to be fixed. for now, i always instinctively take the horizontal or vertical ones as my first
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
"Blizzard's map team" in the title is assuming that blizzard has dedicated employees making maps. If they only have david kim and dustin browder working on balance, why would they have an entire map team?
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It is true that there is a slight imbalance in the placement of geysers but same can be said of mineral patches.
However, I believe that this arbitrage is far more offset by the macro ability of the player to keep constant worker production and expanding, pressuring, defending etc and thus will have minimal impact to the outcome of the game.
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The gas imbalance is nothing compared to other positional imbalances. Like when one players expo is towards the opponent while his is away from yours. The walling issue on some maps as mentioned. The fact sometimes addons are inside your base(safe) or outside towards ramp, big deal in mirror if his addons are safe and yours are vulnerable. The shitty list goes on.
I dont understand why they ignore this or how they are blind to it. >.<'
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This is,really minimal compared to the other map imbalaces, and stuff like having bad luck and scouting the enemy base last.
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On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one".
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On December 21 2011 14:11 Sea_Food wrote:
This is,really minimal compared to the other map imbalaces, and stuff like having bad luck and scouting the enemy base last.
so you're saying it's ok to have a better income based purely on the % chance that you have to spawn in a certain position on a map?
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On December 20 2011 23:58 a176 wrote:at the same time, i wish you people would stop supporting blizzard's maps. time and time again they have proven they make fucking terrible maps. favouring the community made maps can ensure fast resolution of issues like these (if possible), help to get community maps on the ladder, and play less of these imbalanced pieces of crap.
This is quoted for eternal truths. The community has frequently been the best solution to game issues overlooked by a developer. Look at the modding ability in some early and middle-generation FPS engines, which was utilized by the game community to spawn new franchises (and even genres). We have tons of dedicated mappers working tirelessly to create artwork that is occupied as an intergalactic battleground. They yearn to make fun, playable, and most importantly, entertaining maps, for both players and spectators! More active community support for custom map usage in tournaments would result in increased map exposure and distribution in casual or organized practice play. A more active community also provides better cumulative input towards the design aspects. Support your local maps.
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Sick find. Time to start mirroring gas and minerals at every base like in BW 
[edit] The issue is that Nexus/CC/Hatcheries take up a square of hexes but the radius for placing the gas geyser is a circle. So some places are farther than others. The solution is to either copy+paste gases or to always place the gases parallel to the starting location.
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On December 21 2011 14:20 Zero.Tha.Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 23:58 a176 wrote:at the same time, i wish you people would stop supporting blizzard's maps. time and time again they have proven they make fucking terrible maps. favouring the community made maps can ensure fast resolution of issues like these (if possible), help to get community maps on the ladder, and play less of these imbalanced pieces of crap. This is quoted for eternal truths. The community has frequently been the best solution to game issues overlooked by a developer. Look at the modding ability in some early and middle-generation FPS engines, which was utilized by the game community to spawn new franchises (and even genres). We have tons of dedicated mappers working tirelessly to create artwork that is occupied as an intergalactic battleground. They yearn to make fun, playable, and most importantly, entertaining maps, for both players and spectators! More active community support for custom map usage in tournaments would result in increased map exposure and distribution in casual or organized practice play. A more active community also provides better cumulative input towards the design aspects. Support your local maps.
The last post showed that Tal'Darim, Daybreak and Calm before the Storm all also have this problem; it can definitely be fixed by the community but it is not only Blizzard that are at fault.
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I have noticed that some geysers are closer than others, and this data confirms it. However, this is a somewhat small difference, as I am assuming the numbers mean that when one geyser is mined out, there is X amount of gas left. I think that we just have to know which geyser is closer and make sure we take those ones.
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Damn, I really hope they fix this because I can't believe memorizing which gysers to take first could impact the game so much 
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yeah i've noticed that i would randomly be able to afford my 12 barracks and 13 barracks without skipping any scv's when i 2 rax a zerg. They really need to fix this. Horrible practice. And as for blizzards map team. They should GET ONE. Im pretty sure its just one guys sitting around drawing a picture and then puts it into a map editor.
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Fantastic post. This is pretty silly of Blizzard =p
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So basically even GSL maps have this problem. Perhaps a simple fix would be to allow geysers and mineral patches to be placed out of the grid, and whatever square they are on count as occupied.
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On December 21 2011 15:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So basically even GSL maps have this problem. Perhaps a simple fix would be to allow geysers and mineral patches to be placed out of the grid, and whatever square they are on count as occupied.
ive thought of this back in broodwar because it had a problem similiar to this, this would fix it
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On December 21 2011 15:41 hehe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 15:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
So basically even GSL maps have this problem. Perhaps a simple fix would be to allow geysers and mineral patches to be placed out of the grid, and whatever square they are on count as occupied. ive thought of this back in broodwar because it had a problem similiar to this, this would fix it
Hm yea didn't think of it. It would probably have been harder to fix in BW, they should take advantage of sc2
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On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one".
No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it.
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i just found some issues with walling with terran on the new 4 player map at the 10 and at the 7 so it contiunes on
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On December 21 2011 16:10 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one". No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it.
To be fair, the overarching design ideas of (almost) every Blizzard-made Map in SC2 has been absolutely terrible.
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On December 21 2011 16:21 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 16:10 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one". No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it. To be fair, the overarching design ideas of (almost) every Blizzard-made Map in SC2 has been absolutely terrible.
Now now they had some wonderful creations like Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis, how can you hate on them?
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On December 21 2011 16:25 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 16:21 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 21 2011 16:10 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one". No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it. To be fair, the overarching design ideas of (almost) every Blizzard-made Map in SC2 has been absolutely terrible. Now now they had some wonderful creations like Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis, how can you hate on them?
And that was what, 18 months ago? Most of their recent creations have been at the very least exemplary. Of course, criticism is due in many cases, but no more than what would be required to many community maps so many people would supposedly die for.
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On December 21 2011 16:44 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 16:25 Diamond wrote:On December 21 2011 16:21 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 21 2011 16:10 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one". No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it. To be fair, the overarching design ideas of (almost) every Blizzard-made Map in SC2 has been absolutely terrible. Now now they had some wonderful creations like Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis, how can you hate on them? And that was what, 18 months ago? Most of their recent creations have been at the very least exemplary. Of course, criticism is due in many cases, but no more than what would be required to many community maps so many people would supposedly die for.
I may have been being a bit sarcastic there naming the 3 worst maps ever.......
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On December 21 2011 16:54 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 16:44 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 16:25 Diamond wrote:On December 21 2011 16:21 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 21 2011 16:10 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 14:12 PenguinWithNuke wrote:On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game. That's not the point. The point is that Blizzard should fix these things, or put more time and effort into making maps so that these things don't happen. For me, it's more a matter of "seriously, Blizzard, you couldn't have put more time into making your maps perfect for me, the consumer", rather than "OMGWTF IMBA IMBA IMBA!!111!one". No, the point people like you are trying to make is that you will go through any lengths to prove your own unjustified bias. Somebody in this topic even pointed out the imbalances in GSL maps, but you all continue on the Blizzard hate train. At the end of the day, you'd just as likely piss all over Daybreak if it had a Blizz stamp next to it. To be fair, the overarching design ideas of (almost) every Blizzard-made Map in SC2 has been absolutely terrible. Now now they had some wonderful creations like Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, and Desert Oasis, how can you hate on them? And that was what, 18 months ago? Most of their recent creations have been at the very least exemplary. Of course, criticism is due in many cases, but no more than what would be required to many community maps so many people would supposedly die for. I may have been being a bit sarcastic there naming the 3 worst maps ever.......
The sheer depth of your sarcasm clearly dwarfs the serious arguments some people make here. =P
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Lol they will probably want us to pay for HotS in order for this
to be fixed
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Blizzard, please take a look at this. Positional imbalance is the easiest thing to fix.
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On December 21 2011 01:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 00:17 SoulWager wrote:On December 21 2011 00:15 Kfcnoob wrote:
While differences in geysers are evident, the differences in mining rates are probably insignificant. In the most drastic example, in fifteen minutes or so, one player mines 100 more gas overall from one of the geysers. Is this really significant and game changing? I don't think you should feel gimped if u g et the weaker geyser spawn
1 extra baneling in zvz or 5 seconds on a sentry in pvp can have huge consequences. So can manually forcing workers on specific mineral patches earlier in the game, but we see time and time again that bigger decisions make or break the game. This "bug" is something so insignificant that you people are splitting hairs. Stop nitpicking Blizzard maps and just play the damn game.
So what you're saying is "Stop acknowledge the flaw and do nothing about it". Good call brah. Maybe we shouldn't be mean about it, but there definitely needs to be pressure to make all aspects as competitive and professional as possible. This isn't WoW. SC2 is a huge, growing eSport, and if Blizzard is as smart as we sometimes give them credit for, they'll cater to that.
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EPT
