On December 15 2011 07:51 HandleTaken wrote: While I appreciate all the things GOM has done for SC2 I'm disappointed by this GOM announcement.
It looks like GOM rewrites the past to fit the present. When GOM bends rules and creates new ones to fit their agenda I'm not sure I like where GOM is heading anymore.
By no means am I defending what Naniwa did. But it seems as though GOM is to dominant in the SC2 world for their own good.
The only thing I can do to counteract that is not to subscribe to GSL anymore.
How are they bending the rules? There is no rule in the GOM rule book saying that you cannot bodily injure another player, so Naniwa could have beaten up NesTea, done some time and come back and try play GSL? No.
That's why GOM writes rules vaguely, so they can enforce any rule any way they see fit.
On December 15 2011 07:13 staavros wrote: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
MLG Providence was a 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition.
Pro Circuit Live Competitions grant Code S status. NOT invites to any particular tournament, be it Blizzard cup or anything else.
I expect either GOM or MLG, preferrably the latter, to explain to me and many others of the same opinion what of the above is wrong. For me that concludes the discussion about GOM simply deciding to NOT OFFER naniwa code S, versus TAKING IT AWAY from him.
On a side note, just an observation: Naniwa's code S status was announced by virtually EVERY party involved in starcraft 2 those previous weeks. Shouldn't GOM clarify that this is not true?
I am sorry, but no matter how much I try to rationalize it driven by my love for starcraft, it still seems absolutely clear that the rules changed overnight. I will still, with great hope, anticipate a statement that sets things straight.
Thank you! This proves that GomTV is directly lying. Now they owe us an apology, and they owe MLG an apology.
However, it doesn't mean that the punishment is inappropriate. GomTV, just stick with your judgements, if they are Just they will stand.
Don't make up fake excuses and deny punishing a player. Now we can't trust you, GomTV. You are a business, not a cause. There are plenty of opposition tournaments that participate in the business of competitive eSports.
Your own judgement against NaNiWa is that he acted unprofessionally, and is not trustworthy to give competition to his opponents, nor quality entertainment to your viewers. Your own judgement is turned back upon you. It is not professional business practice to lie to your customers. You are no longer trustworthy.
If it is the cause of eSports that we are worried about, then we should support the trustworthy businesses. I certainly am not giving my credit card information to a company that blatantly lies.
GomTV isn't lying, partnership changed, read the OP. Naniwa wasn't punished, he just wasn't chose for the spot, read the OP. You're welcome.
You cant change partnership AFTER the event? that like changing prize money for the event AFTER someone has won the money LOL.
Nope, they just didn't announce it yet. You should REALLY read the OP.
you should read the MLG/GSL exchange announcement LOL
The one which is outdated as we can clearly see in this announcement ? Why should i do that ?
Well it wasn't outdated at Providence, that is to say, either MLG lied to us that soemone would be getting a code S spot, or Gom lied to them(or more likely, Gom just changed the contract afterwards).
And yeah, Blizzard cup != code s, so that doesn't really fly saying "look he got to play in one of our tourneys". If they think it does, it shows they are getting a bit to big for their own good.
On December 15 2011 07:26 Lazarusnpx wrote: Thanks for the good and honest statement from Gom, although this does still raise some questions i (as a SC2 fan) would like to see answered, first, isn't Gom taking any responsibility on the matter? The last statement saying you will look into better formats its something to short, but Gom does have the responsibility of creating the bad format that allowed this and should take a fair part of the blame, neither Naniwa or Nestea should have been put into that situation or atleast clearly Naniwa was mentally worn, and still he was thrown into the main stage, to me it doesn't sound like a very good way to treat your players. Someone should have been there and noticed that Naniwa was in no state to perform, because that's what you were asking of him, not to be a competitor but for that game to be a performer. Second, it seems that the ruling that Naniwa will no longer be considered for the code S spot is fair enough, seeing that, as you state Gom is chosing the players going in, rather then having some standard quantifiable way to do it. But that seems just like a bad way, that's not how it should work, everyone assumed Naniwa got it because he was the top foreigner qualified, but if rather, its just Gom chosing who the think its best isn't that a susceptible to bias system? also does that mean the arrangement with MLG is over or just being completly ignored?
Both Nestea and Naniwa had the chance to forfeit their spots before entering the tournament
they took the risk knowing the format and had to bear the consequences.
yes, thats a good argument, but i'm not saying Naniwa is not to blame, he is the one to get the biggest part of the blame, but not all of it i believe, like it's being done, i was actualy watching Sotg vod and they made some good points there for both sides, but specially tyler brought a bit of insight into what might have gone through Naniwa head
On December 15 2011 07:51 Starcraftmazter wrote: You have not addressed the following:
- Why Korean players never get punished for offensive or disrespectful behaviour - Why Korean players never get punished for throwing games - Why it is OK to insult Naniwai and not apologise for your disrespectful and incorrect statements about him
GOMTV is blatantly racist and clearly has double standards.
On December 15 2011 06:40 TadH wrote: Judging from what he did (didn't?) do, he deserves nothing. So many people would love to be in his position. It was a disgrace in my opinion and a slap int he face to e-sports fans everywhere.
So many people would love to be in his position? Are you saying he is lucky to be where he is? Do you know how hard he has worked to get to where he is now? And you say he deserves nothing?
On December 15 2011 07:49 Dexx wrote: Just one question: Why does GOM invite Idra, a player that threw games at Providence instead of Naniwho basically did the same?
Why the double standards?
I got to almost agree with you. I'm a fan of Idra, but the truth is that as a PAYING spectator, those early Idraculations are veeeeery frustating.
Anyways, I still think that Idra is a borderline case.
repost: I find it encouraging that the persons involved are communicating. Of course, when discussing any 'punitive' action, we explain our interpretation of the predetermined guidelines and how they apply to the current situation, and how we follow predetermined guidelines in our response. Grey areas emerge when our interpretations conflict or there are no predetermined guidelines. Ideally, we know what is expected of us at all times. If we do not, then we discuss our misunderstandings in a meaningful way.
Whether or not what has transpired proves what was stated above true or not, I cannot say. I would like to see Naniwa show his resilience as a player in the upcoming tournaments.
On December 15 2011 07:42 ACrow wrote: I could agree with Gom's punishment of revoking Naniwa's Code S spot for immature behavior... ...if it wasn't for the MLG exchange program. The way the wording of the program is - as far as it's public - GSL broke their obligations to MLG. This is very unprofessional by Gom and should be cleared up. If I were in Sundance's shoes, I'd be pissed; part of the appeal of his circuit is that it acts (or at least acted for 2011 events, which includes Providence) as qualifier for the most respected league. This damages MLG's reputation quite a bit if this is not cleared up! This whole thing makes me sad, I love the GSL, but something really seems fishy here
Providence wasn`t part of their obligations.
Based on...?
You could probably guess based on the new GSL format not specifying a Code S slot from the exchange program, only 2 direct seeds with no set origin. I'm going to give gom the benefit of the doubt here and say that MLG knew about this, but they also knew that naniwa was going to get one of those Code S seeds largely because of his performance at that event anyway.
On December 15 2011 07:49 Dexx wrote: Just one question: Why does GOM invite Idra, a player that threw games at Providence instead of Naniwho basically did the same?
Why the double standards?
Because GOM doesn't run MLG?
Sure, but they wrote in the opener that they chose players based on results and in case of Nani on is unprofessional behaviour. What is the difference between Nani and Idrae at Providence, what reasoning can they put forward?
On December 15 2011 07:50 lightsentry wrote: i suppose since there was no gsl dec blizzard cup was more or less gsl december code s right?
That is incorrect. Try to read the description on GOMTV's website about the tournament, instead of posting your half-baked suppositions. It was an invite tournament of 2011 champions. there was no december Code S due to format changes.
On December 15 2011 07:37 Hamsterdam wrote: More than anything this incident highlights the lack of clear rules. As a professional league I just sort of expected a clear-cut rule would exist for such a situation.
Of course the rules can always be clearer, but no league has clear cut rules. In every professional sport that I follow, the players get upset about "unclear" rules.
A really good parallel to this is the NFL's "helmet to helmet" contact rule for which there are steep penalties. Essentially you can't strike "defenseless" targets with your helmet. Of course people disagree about what a defenseless target is, outside of the obvious. That rule will always be ambiguous and one ref will call it differently than another. But concussions are such a problem that the rule has to be enforced, so that players comply in spirit.
Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker James Harrison will be suspended from this week's game against the San Francisco 49ers. I want to stress that many people think this hit was legal, including Deion Sanders in the post-game analysis, on television after the game. Many people disagree with this rule being in the game, period. This next game will be Pittsburgh's toughest by far for the rest of the season, and if they lose a single game, they'll fall from the first to the fifth seed in the AFC.
That's not to mention the tens of thousands of dollars he'll have to pay, and the hundred thousand + he's already paid.
Similarly, can you have clear rules about what "not trying" means? Or what it means to "throw" a game? No, you can't, but you need to prevent against that.
But the solution in GSL's case is clear. Remove inconsequential matches, and the ambiguity dissipates immediately. I don't think anyone would disagree if Naniwa did this in a code s match he should be at the very least banned for the rest of the season.
On December 15 2011 07:28 MiXyass wrote: Anybody that says KESPA would've handled this situation better has no idea what they are talking about
KESPA was not only strict about what happened on their own tournaments but they were strict on what happened outside of tournaments so that the players can display the best games possible on television
If this happened under KESPA naniwa would be 100% banned forever in any korean tournament
KESPA would not punish someone for not breaking a rule. KESPA was hard on players but not close to as subjective as GomTV. Its like Singapore vs Pakistan.
Yeah KeSPA never banned players for throwing games away.... Ohhh wait saviOr..... HMMMMM....
SaviOr was banned for match fixing. He also broke rules Naniwa did not.
On December 15 2011 07:41 SCST wrote: Again I love how people in this thread are constantly whining about how GOM has "no right" to take away a Code S spot for Naniwa. WRONG. GOM owns the tournament, they pay for it and decide every aspect of their own tournament. They can change the rules, break them or whatever they want.
You on the other hand (person complaining about this), most likely sit on your butt and watch the games from a couch eating Cheetos. If you want to let Naniwa play in a tournament and act like a pre-teen, then create your own tournament. What you want is irrelevant. What Naniwa wants is irrelevant. GOM can do whatever they want, and if they don't want a disrespectful punk on their show then all the whining and Cheeto-throwing in the world isn't going to change that. Individuals thinking "waaa it's unfair" seriously need to grow up. There aren't enough consequences for jerks in this world, it should be applauded when someone or something finally grows the balls to enforce some repercussions.
And that's the issue. You're giving ALL the power to GOM and taking any shred thats left from the players/fans. In your demented world, GOM calls every shot. Us fans are going to sit in our fucking chairs and pay for their service, or fuck off because we're irrelevant. If GOM wanted to ban a player because they didn't wear a GOM patch every where they went, even when outside of Korea, well then FUCK YOU gom owns the GSL they do what they want. (This is all examples of a corrupt organization and don't represent GOM) It's exactly this stupid line of thinking where someone is willing to take it up the ass because they were told to.
You could bet your fucking ass if the players/fans were to take it upon themselves and completely stop watching/participating in GSL they'd change their stance right quick.
And this is not even to bash GOM any more than I have, or to incite everyone to protest the GSL. It's bashing this hard right line of thinking where the power of leagues are absolute and the fans/players are expected to bow their heads, and never fight for their own benefit. GSL definitely doesn't hold all the cards, and can definitely be held responsible; not because it happened to Naniwa but because it could happen to anyone.
You seriously want everyone to band together and stop watching the GSL because a player who probe rushed because he didn't feel like playing a televised game was punished? I think this controversy has prompted the most ridiculous shit I've heard yet on TL.net
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote: Dear Teamliquid.net users,
Time really flies - we have already reached the Semifinals of the Blizzard Cup. We wish to conclude a great year of StarCraft II with the Blizzard Cup and hope everyone was able to enjoy some of the great matches we've had so far.
There seems to be great confusion regarding an incident involving NaNiWa that took place on the second day of Blizzard Cup. We would like to clarify this matter and hereby announce our official stance towards the incident.
1. GSL's stance toward the NaNiWa incident
Not only progamers, but professional athletes in every sports prove and showcase their skill through the game and by doing so entertain their fans. Since professional athletes do this for a living, competing in tournaments is a means to make money in order to sustain themselves. While money is an essential factor in a professional athlete’s life, it is the sincere competitive spirit that enables a mere athlete to become a professional athlete. This spirit entails the will to improve, work hard and try one's best no matter what. It also encompasses a mutual respect between those who share the title of professional athlete, which consequently leads to a certain code of professional conduct. It is this underlying competitive spirit, which goes beyond and is unrelated to any amount of prize money, of every professional athlete that touches and entertains many fans. We believe that the reason why so many people are such avid fans of baseball, soccer or e-sports has next to nothing to do with money. Korean e-sports fans generally share this understanding of the term 'professional athlete’ or in this case 'progamer', and might be less likely to tolerate a deviation from these core values compared to overseas communities.
A lot of people share the opinion that NaNiWa has not broken any rules and should therefore not receive any punishment.
It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.
We do however not doubt the sincerity of NaNiWa's competitive spirit. NaNiWa has come the long way to Korea just to compete in the GSL after all. We know very well how hard it is and the determination it takes to come to a foreign country and take the challenge to compete.
We want to make clear that NaNiWa will not be banned from the GSL for his actions. We will however revoke his candidacy for a Code S seed, which means that he will have to requalify for the GSL.
2. Doesn't that mean that the GSL is depriving NaNiWa of a Code S seed that he rightfully earned?
It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
We have introduced our new format for the 2012 GSL Tour a while ago, which includes changes to the way international seeds are being given out. Since we have not explained these changes to the seeds in detail yet, this misunderstanding seems to have arisen.
In 2012 the GSL will have 2 Code S sponsor seeds. These seeds will be determined by outstanding results in international tournaments. In 2011 the GSL schedule luckily matched very well with MLG's schedule. For this reason we were able to introduce a system that allowed high-placing players at MLG to compete in the following GSL season in a regular manner. In 2012 we will again do our best to provide a schedule that matches well with MLG and other international leagues. As the GSL format has changed and a season now lasts for significantly longer, it will this time however not be possible to perfectly match our schedule with MLG's. Apart from that we would also like to consider players of other remarkable tournaments and have therefore introduced this change to our international seeding system.
NaNiWa has been considered as one of the players to receive a Code S seed for the 2012 GSL Season 1 as a part of the this new seeding system due to his recent impressive results. Other players under consideration were IdrA (MLG Orlando 4th, IEM Guangzhou) and Sen (Blizzcon Battle.net Invitational 3rd) among others. During this phase of consideration aforementioned incident happened, which led us to the decision to remove NaNiWa from the top of the list of considered players. This is not to be seen as a direct punishment resulting from the incident, the incident did however understandably have an influence on NaNiWa's position on the list of candidates.
What we would like to ask from all of the GSL fans is to not simply see this incident as just a simple meaningless single game between NaNiWa and NesTea. The act of purposefully losing a match, whatever the underlying reasons may be, does always also have a psychological effect on the other players. By tolerating such behavior, purposefully losing might be deemed as a legitimate action and we might see more of such matches in the future, which is something that surely neither the fans nor the players would appreciate.
Both Korean as well as international fans are important to us. We hope that no one gets the wrong picture and believes that NaNiWa is being treated disadvantageously because he is a foreigner. On the contrary, if a Korean had been involved in a similar incident, it is possible that a much harsher reaction would have followed. It is also very likely that the player's team would have taken firm action before the GSL could have even reacted to it.
The GSL is a tournament that is open for fans and players from all over the world. We are lucky to live in the internet era, which allows us to easily connect and share our passions. At the same time, we have to live with the time difference and can experience an interesting mix but sometimes also clash of cultures. We would be very happy to be able to always satisfy everyone, but unfortunately that is not realistically possible. We would like everyone to know that we tried to make a fair decision to the best of our ability in this unfortunate situation.
We promise that we will work hard to provide tournament formats that will lead players to do their best in every match and to create a GSL that will allow fans to enjoy and experience the competition as something that has more to it than just professionals trying to make a living.
We wish NaNiWa all the best for his future endeavors as a progamer.
- Why Korean players never get punished for offensive or disrespectful behaviour - Why Korean players never get punished for throwing games - Why it is OK to insult Naniwai and not apologise for your disrespectful and incorrect statements about him
GOMTV is blatantly racist and clearly has double standards.
what offensive or disrespectful behavior are your referring to? what games were thrown by koreans? (Coca and Byun are the only ones I can think of, and they were both punished) wasnt the "insult" the result of a mis-translation or someone using second hand information?
you have not shown that GOMTV is racist or has double standards.
On December 15 2011 07:41 SCST wrote: Again I love how people in this thread are constantly whining about how GOM has "no right" to take away a Code S spot for Naniwa. WRONG. GOM owns the tournament, they pay for it and decide every aspect of their own tournament. They can change the rules, break them or whatever they want.
You on the other hand (person complaining about this), most likely sit on your butt and watch the games from a couch eating Cheetos. If you want to let Naniwa play in a tournament and act like a pre-teen, then create your own tournament. What you want is irrelevant. What Naniwa wants is irrelevant. GOM can do whatever they want, and if they don't want a disrespectful punk on their show then all the whining and Cheeto-throwing in the world isn't going to change that. Individuals thinking "waaa it's unfair" seriously need to grow up. There aren't enough consequences for jerks in this world, it should be applauded when someone or something finally grows the balls to enforce some repercussions.
And that's the issue. You're giving ALL the power to GOM and taking any shred thats left from the players/fans. In your demented world, GOM calls every shot. Us fans are going to sit in our fucking chairs and pay for their service, or fuck off because we're irrelevant. If GOM wanted to ban a player because they didn't wear a GOM patch every where they went, even when outside of Korea, well then FUCK YOU gom owns the GSL they do what they want. (This is all examples of a corrupt organization and don't represent GOM) It's exactly this stupid line of thinking where someone is willing to take it up the ass because they were told to.
You could bet your fucking ass if the players/fans were to take it upon themselves and completely stop watching/participating in GSL they'd change their stance right quick.
And this is not even to bash GOM any more than I have, or to incite everyone to protest the GSL. It's bashing this hard right line of thinking where the power of leagues are absolute and the fans/players are expected to bow their heads, and never fight for their own benefit. GSL definitely doesn't hold all the cards, and can definitely be held responsible; not because it happened to Naniwa but because it could happen to anyone.
Whoa, it's not ME who's "giving all the power to GOM" - what kid of logic is this? GOM has all the power because they OWN the tournamnet. What is it about "this is a business that pays for their own tournament" that people just don't get? You think fans should control a business? Or players? I'm laughing my ass off thinking about that. I can only imagine a tournament were the "largest ego" decides the rules of the tournament. In that case, Irda would be allowed to forfeit all Protoss matches on grounds of "imbalance", and Naniwa would be allowed to go around slapping the faces of event staff because he "felt like it". Time to come back to reality and the adult world.
- Why Korean players never get punished for offensive or disrespectful behaviour - Why Korean players never get punished for throwing games - Why it is OK to insult Naniwai and not apologise for your disrespectful and incorrect statements about him
GOMTV is blatantly racist and clearly has double standards.
Haha all I can do is laugh at this post and leave you with these names - choyafou, tsl rain, slayers coca and byun prime. Naniwa got off easier because he wasn't korean and was shown leniency.
On December 15 2011 07:42 ACrow wrote: I could agree with Gom's punishment of revoking Naniwa's Code S spot for immature behavior... ...if it wasn't for the MLG exchange program. The way the wording of the program is - as far as it's public - GSL broke their obligations to MLG. This is very unprofessional by Gom and should be cleared up. If I were in Sundance's shoes, I'd be pissed; part of the appeal of his circuit is that it acts (or at least acted for 2011 events, which includes Providence) as qualifier for the most respected league. This damages MLG's reputation quite a bit if this is not cleared up! This whole thing makes me sad, I love the GSL, but something really seems fishy here
Providence wasn`t part of their obligations.
Based on...?
Do you have evidence of the contrary? There is 2 sides of this partnership, and GOM is on one side unless you believe they are lying.
"2. Doesn't that mean that the GSL is depriving NaNiWa of a Code S seed that he rightfully earned?
It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence."
I have one public announcement and then I have one person who is saying after the fact that he changed the format but didn't announce it.
If you truly believe that GomTV changed rules, take the original announcement by GomTV, the new announcement which says: "The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence." (A fact known before today.), make a new thread with analysis and make a claim.
With all due respect, so far you're giving one-liners that feed trolls.
EPT
