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An article on Naniwa from Thisisgame - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Puph
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada635 Posts
December 13 2011 16:20 GMT
#461
Honestly I think the guy should be able to do what he wants with is probes. Cutting him off future tournaments cause he ruined your grudgematch? Rather childish. It's too bad really, but why make such a big deal you know?
Intel Dual Core 4400 @ ~2.00GHz / 2046MB RAM / 256 MB ATI Radeon x1300PRO
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
December 13 2011 16:20 GMT
#462
On December 14 2011 01:02 Russano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 00:55 dartoo wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:53 Russano wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:49 dartoo wrote:
Initialiaay I was thinking, okay what is so bad about this. But then on further thoughts, it is actually wrong to do this. Imagine if this happens in a real sports event, where you throw a game because it has no benefit for you? That would never go down well if they were sa, Manu fans, who have spent a lot of money and time travelling just to see this.

I hope he realizes his mistake,but by this time, he doesnt have too many extra lives left.


Half-assed performances happen all the time in regular sports. People need to quit bringing this argument up, it's already been shot down.

THe major difference between other sports and this one, is the fact that it can end in a minute compared to 90.



Half assed yes, a complete walk over, in a premier tournament like a world cup? no.



Yes there have been http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_v_Austria_(1982)

Professional teams will half ass games to get better draft picks when actually winning the game no longer becomes the goal.

Kobe Bryant famously didn't shoot in game 7 of the western conference finals, to prove how shit his team was.

This situation happens alot more in starcraft then people think, the only reason anyone is paying attention is because the game lasted around a minute.

There have been numerous other examples in this thread already.


How you compare the Germany vs Austria game to this is beyond me. That game was an example of something completely unrelated, which is teams not wanting to take any risks and playing for a draw or status-quo in group stages of tournaments, which has to do with the nature and rules of soccer itself. After Germany scored a goal, they had what they wanted, so they played to keep the current score, because they didn't want to give up a goal to a counter attack and get eliminated and Austria went along because they were afraid to give up even more goals and get eliminated if they attacked, trying to even up the score. It's for the same reason that they changed rules regarding goalies' handling of the ball and back passes. Teams playing for a draw (or even sometimes for a close loss as in this example) in games they're too afraid to lose is still a problem in soccer, but has nothing to do with throwing a game.
Alpino
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil4390 Posts
December 13 2011 16:21 GMT
#463
On December 14 2011 01:20 rblstr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 01:17 MayorITC wrote:
On December 14 2011 01:08 rblstr wrote:
On December 14 2011 01:05 MayorITC wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:57 Madder wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:53 MayorITC wrote:
On December 14 2011 00:46 rblstr wrote:
Oh please, you think GOM care about that game?
Did they lose any money from Nani throwing the game?

No.
Get over it.
Its not a big deal, just be happy you saw Leenok, Polt and MMA show incredible games.


Actually they have. I've paid for every GOM tournament, but I don't think I'll be paying for anymore tournaments that involve Naniwa.

Right, that shows how much you love SC2 then, because of one player. Because of one player who chose not to play to his fullest because in the end, the game had no bearing on the the advance for either player in the tornament. The game shouldn't of taken place, don't feel like you've been robbed or feel like you're entitled to falsified entertainment.


Actually, I do feel like I've been robbed - apparently, a sentiment shared by the Korean progamers. I will continue to support other progamers, and SC2 tournaments, but I won't financially support a tournament that involves Naniwa. It's a personal choice much like how Naniwa made a personal choice to probe rush. Questioning my love for SC2 or any other comment about how I'm hurting e-sports seems just as much of an overreaction as the people criticizing Naniwa for throwing away the game against Nestea.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to do the same. I was just answering rblstr's original question.


But you do realise that you'd be hurting the scene more than Naniwa by refusing to support MLG/Dreamhack/etc?


No. Because you and I have different values on what hurts the scene and what doesn't. By not paying for DH/MLG, they'll lose money and a viewer. While money and exposure are important, having classy professional players will help generate those two and establish e-sports as a serious industry. Maybe when e-sports becomes mainstream, you'll have room for mavericks, but right now I believe that people like Naniwa are hurting the scene. All I saw from Naniwa today was a selfish kid who doesn't know the hardships of a vocation - an individual that doesn't help e-sport's image. If MLG/DH are tolerant of his behavior then I don't think that's going to help e-sports. Therefore I'm not really hurting the scene by refusing to support DH/MLG.


So Naniwa didn't play his absolute best in his first 3 games against cheesy as fuck Koreans? So what Nani threw the last game, he played exceptionally well in his first 3 so how about we focus on that instead of this stupid drama bullshit.


Don't even try man, they want their Judas. They want it bad, like in a fetishist way.
20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember
Zandar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1541 Posts
December 13 2011 16:22 GMT
#464
On December 14 2011 01:17 MayorITC wrote:
By not paying for DH/MLG, they'll lose money and a viewer (me). While money and exposure are important, having classy professional players will help generate those two and establish e-sports as a serious industry. Maybe when e-sports becomes mainstream, you'll have room for mavericks, but right now I believe that people like Naniwa are hurting the scene. All I saw from Naniwa today was a selfish kid who doesn't know the hardships of a vocation - an individual that doesn't help e-sport's image. If MLG/DH are tolerant of his behavior then I don't think that's going to help e-sports. Therefore I'm not really hurting the scene by refusing to support DH/MLG.


You are. By saying that every pro player has to behave in a certain "correct" way. Gives me the creeps tbh...
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Alpino
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil4390 Posts
December 13 2011 16:22 GMT
#465
On December 14 2011 01:15 SonOfMKP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 01:13 Fall.182 wrote:
On December 13 2011 22:50 frede wrote:
On December 13 2011 22:45 Reaper9 wrote:
As I mentioned in the other thread, Europeans and Americans to this very day still under-estimate countries whose culture does not revolve around theirs. This is going to get VERY bad flack from the Korean community. And they can say whatever they want about Naniwa, because at this point, he collectively insulted them. I hate repeating myself, but that's how it is.


The Koreans did the same/ worse things in BW foreign tournaments so them getting pissed about this seems quite ironic.



wow you're such a dumbfuck. They received shit from korean netizens too. Naniwa throwing those games away was basically spitting at the audience, viewers, casters, fans and other players. He thinks hes a fucking progamer? Progamers are pro because they are PROFESSIONAL trash like him shouldn't play starcraft. He has no talent anyways. all talk.


EDIT: also people PAYED to watch these games. him throwing it away is the same as taking people's money and trashing it


It makes me feel bad to be an American when I read stupid shit like this.

Pretty much sums up a great comparison of your argument.


Holy moses I'm laughing so hard right now. Thank you.
20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember
BritWrangler
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom120 Posts
December 13 2011 16:24 GMT
#466
Naniwa acting like a spoiled child. It's pathetic and if esports is to become mainstream then petty, immature behaviour like this cannot happen.
calvinL
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada416 Posts
December 13 2011 16:24 GMT
#467
So many ignorant people in this thread. Koreans are not overreacting when plenty of Korean gamers just wish they had a chance to play on stage but are not good enough to do so. Take it from Proleague in BW where it is a privilege to get a stage match even if you are out of playoffs. For esports to really take off, the games have to be for the fans, not for the players.
ILoveAustralia
Profile Joined October 2011
Bangladesh104 Posts
December 13 2011 16:25 GMT
#468
well its fair for people to complain. People bought tickets to see quality matches regardless. Naniwa was upset and cbf playing seriously so he just threw away the game. Everything is just for money. Playing to win for money.. gomtv broadcasting awesome games for money. And woodi la its all for money. Naniwa might not have gone any further to win any money but there was that "famous rivalry that im sure some people were eager to watch the battle of the starcraft pride. The controversy was high between them too and could of drawled alot of viewers in to watch. Naniwa could of been exposed more to sponsors noting that people want to see him vs nestea etc.. So perhap if Naniwa thought about external income from potential sponsors he could of played properly and maybe if he even beat nestea for a third time and doing some dance or what ever around him.. who knows what could of happened... its all about money and he should of thought about the match potential money wise .
Russano
Profile Joined November 2010
United States434 Posts
December 13 2011 16:27 GMT
#469
On December 14 2011 01:20 sitromit wrote:



How you compare the Germany vs Austria game to this is beyond me. That game was an example of something completely unrelated, which is teams not wanting to take any risks and playing for a draw or status-quo in group stages of tournaments, which has to do with the nature and rules of soccer itself. After Germany scored a goal, they had what they wanted, so they played to keep the current score, because they didn't want to give up a goal to a counter attack and get eliminated and Austria went along because they were afraid to give up even more goals and get eliminated if they attacked, trying to even up the score. It's for the same reason that they changed rules regarding goalies' handling of the ball and back passes. Teams playing for a draw (or even sometimes for a close loss as in this example) in games they're too afraid to lose is still a problem in soccer, but has nothing to do with throwing a game.


It was just one of many examples of someone "not giving it their all" to win a game. The objective isn't always to win, and people here are insisting that is, which is ridiculous. Naniwa got what he wanted, what he intended. End the game very quickly as it doesn't matter and he doesn't want to play. That game, Austria's goal wasn't to win, therefor its acceptable that they play for what they are after, not losing by alot. It just happens that their goal coincided with their opponents goal. This is what happens when you take winning/losing out of the equation and play matches that don't matter. Secondary objectives become primary objectives and that doesn't always make it interesting for the spectators.

Russano
Profile Joined November 2010
United States434 Posts
December 13 2011 16:28 GMT
#470
At the end of the day, what Naniwa did is allowed. He should not be directly punished. You're allowed to hate him though, both are within the rule set of the given system. Officially punishing him for breaking a rule in the system, should not happen, as he didn't break a rule within the given system.
Demidyne
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States110 Posts
December 13 2011 16:29 GMT
#471
I dont understand, we have had other people in GSL events withdraw from inconsequential games. How is this different.
He saw how civilized men behave, he never forgot and he never forgave.
Madder
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:30:12
December 13 2011 16:29 GMT
#472
On December 14 2011 01:24 BritWrangler wrote:
Naniwa acting like a spoiled child. It's pathetic and if esports is to become mainstream then petty, immature behaviour like this cannot happen.

Again, with the whole 'e-sports can't go mainstream!', 'e-sports can't have this'. It is really getting extremely old and boring to read about when it is absolutely ridiculous and doesn't even pertain to a fucking game that has no bearing to the actual tournament.

NaNiwa played that game, he played it short as he it saw necassary.. or unnecassary since it really of shouldn't of been played in the first place.
Alpino
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil4390 Posts
December 13 2011 16:31 GMT
#473
On December 14 2011 01:29 Demidyne wrote:
I dont understand, we have had other people in GSL events withdraw from inconsequential games. How is this different.


He is stealing their Korean girls with his new looks.
20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember
Ammanas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Slovakia2166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:33:17
December 13 2011 16:32 GMT
#474
On December 14 2011 01:25 ih8Australia wrote:
well its fair for people to complain. People bought tickets to see quality matches regardless. Naniwa was upset and cbf playing seriously so he just threw away the game. Everything is just for money. Playing to win for money.. gomtv broadcasting awesome games for money. And woodi la its all for money. Naniwa might not have gone any further to win any money but there was that "famous rivalry that im sure some people were eager to watch the battle of the starcraft pride. The controversy was high between them too and could of drawled alot of viewers in to watch. Naniwa could of been exposed more to sponsors noting that people want to see him vs nestea etc.. So perhap if Naniwa thought about external income from potential sponsors he could of played properly and maybe if he even beat nestea for a third time and doing some dance or what ever around him.. who knows what could of happened... its all about money and he should of thought about the match potential money wise .


Do you think he could get more exposure playing that game (winning or losing, whatever) than he is getting right now? Anyway, I still don't see how worker rush is a problem, but cannon rush/4 gate is not...
JangBi forever <3 || Classic! herO! Rain! Zest! | Rogue! Hydra! Solar! | Fantasy! Cure! Reality! Sorry! Journey!
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
December 13 2011 16:32 GMT
#475
On December 14 2011 01:27 Russano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 01:20 sitromit wrote:



How you compare the Germany vs Austria game to this is beyond me. That game was an example of something completely unrelated, which is teams not wanting to take any risks and playing for a draw or status-quo in group stages of tournaments, which has to do with the nature and rules of soccer itself. After Germany scored a goal, they had what they wanted, so they played to keep the current score, because they didn't want to give up a goal to a counter attack and get eliminated and Austria went along because they were afraid to give up even more goals and get eliminated if they attacked, trying to even up the score. It's for the same reason that they changed rules regarding goalies' handling of the ball and back passes. Teams playing for a draw (or even sometimes for a close loss as in this example) in games they're too afraid to lose is still a problem in soccer, but has nothing to do with throwing a game.


It was just one of many examples of someone "not giving it their all" to win a game. The objective isn't always to win, and people here are insisting that is, which is ridiculous. Naniwa got what he wanted, what he intended. End the game very quickly as it doesn't matter and he doesn't want to play. That game, Austria's goal wasn't to win, therefor its acceptable that they play for what they are after, not losing by alot. It just happens that their goal coincided with their opponents goal. This is what happens when you take winning/losing out of the equation and play matches that don't matter. Secondary objectives become primary objectives and that doesn't always make it interesting for the spectators.



So? They gave it their all to play very defensively, not taking any risks. Germany did the same after scoring the early goal and getting what they wanted. Had they not been able to score the early goal, the game could have been very different, we've seen so many examples of this. It's the nature of soccer, where attacking leaves you open for counter attacks against a defensive team, that causes these kinds of games to happen. What Naniwa and Nestea played could be compared more to an exhibition match, since it had nothing riding on in at that point, and in those kinds of games teams usually play attacking football that's entertaining to watch for the fans, because they're not too worried about the score.
Weemoed
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands741 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:35:00
December 13 2011 16:34 GMT
#476
Esports is never going to become mainstream, why are people even pretending this will actually ever happen? It is, and will always be, a (very great) subculture. Hoping that it will become mainstream just ensures that people are creating unrealistic expectations of 'professionalism' that need to set the bar for 'mainstream Esports' which will never happens. In fact, this drama is as bad for the growth as everything else.
Bring me to space, and let me wander there forever
Madder
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:36:51
December 13 2011 16:35 GMT
#477
On December 14 2011 01:25 ih8Australia wrote:
well its fair for people to complain. People bought tickets to see quality matches regardless. Naniwa was upset and cbf playing seriously so he just threw away the game. Everything is just for money. Playing to win for money.. gomtv broadcasting awesome games for money. And woodi la its all for money. Naniwa might not have gone any further to win any money but there was that "famous rivalry that im sure some people were eager to watch the battle of the starcraft pride. The controversy was high between them too and could of drawled alot of viewers in to watch. Naniwa could of been exposed more to sponsors noting that people want to see him vs nestea etc.. So perhap if Naniwa thought about external income from potential sponsors he could of played properly and maybe if he even beat nestea for a third time and doing some dance or what ever around him.. who knows what could of happened... its all about money and he should of thought about the match potential money wise .

GOM got it completely wrong. People buy tickets to see quality matches regardless, yes.. but how can that happen with situations like what happened tonight? If the players who are already out of the tournament are to play a game for absolutely no place further into the tournament, how can that not hurt a player's ability to play at it's fullest? We can't always expect quality games from that.
Russano
Profile Joined November 2010
United States434 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 16:36:03
December 13 2011 16:35 GMT
#478
On December 14 2011 01:32 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 01:27 Russano wrote:
On December 14 2011 01:20 sitromit wrote:



How you compare the Germany vs Austria game to this is beyond me. That game was an example of something completely unrelated, which is teams not wanting to take any risks and playing for a draw or status-quo in group stages of tournaments, which has to do with the nature and rules of soccer itself. After Germany scored a goal, they had what they wanted, so they played to keep the current score, because they didn't want to give up a goal to a counter attack and get eliminated and Austria went along because they were afraid to give up even more goals and get eliminated if they attacked, trying to even up the score. It's for the same reason that they changed rules regarding goalies' handling of the ball and back passes. Teams playing for a draw (or even sometimes for a close loss as in this example) in games they're too afraid to lose is still a problem in soccer, but has nothing to do with throwing a game.


It was just one of many examples of someone "not giving it their all" to win a game. The objective isn't always to win, and people here are insisting that is, which is ridiculous. Naniwa got what he wanted, what he intended. End the game very quickly as it doesn't matter and he doesn't want to play. That game, Austria's goal wasn't to win, therefor its acceptable that they play for what they are after, not losing by alot. It just happens that their goal coincided with their opponents goal. This is what happens when you take winning/losing out of the equation and play matches that don't matter. Secondary objectives become primary objectives and that doesn't always make it interesting for the spectators.



So? They gave it their all to play very defensively, not taking any risks. Germany did the same after scoring the early goal and getting what they wanted. Had they not been able to score the early goal, the game could have been very different, we've seen so many examples of this. It's the nature of soccer, where attacking leaves you open for counter attacks against a defensive team, that causes these kinds of games to happen. What Naniwa and Nestea played could be compared more to an exhibition match, since it had nothing riding on in at that point, and in those kinds of games teams usually play attacking football that's entertaining to watch for the fans, because they're not too worried about the score.


In that case, Naniwa gave it his all to ending the game as quickly as possible. He gave it his all to complete his objective just like they did. So what's YOUR point?
coljbass
Profile Joined June 2011
United States42 Posts
December 13 2011 16:35 GMT
#479
Look I am not here to take sides but let's just look at it on its face. Most people are quick to point out that the match "didn't mean" anything. How would you feel if your favorite NFL team was playing in a game that meant nothing and literally just came out and took a knee every down?

The fact of the matter is we as a community do need to grow up and realize if we want to get anywhere that every broadcast game DOES matter. I can agree that this is being blown a bit out of proportion and I understand both sides of the coin but if you take the names out of the equation and just look at it on its face we should never be ok with throwing a match regardless. If it is broadcast to the fans then you are taking something away from the fans by just throwing it. That is what this should be about not about whether you like or don't like Naniwa or whether someone else did it before.

Just take your favorite sporting event and imagine your favorite team basically just forfeit the game. It is not the team that loses it is all the fans that wanted to see the game that lose.
Mecker
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden219 Posts
December 13 2011 16:36 GMT
#480
I can't believe the racism coming from koreans. They seemingly are reacting more strongly to this than the Coca incident. Not being allowed to play in GSL ever again? Oh please.
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