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Scientific American article about SC2+Science - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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jorge_the_awesome
Profile Joined January 2011
United States463 Posts
December 02 2011 00:55 GMT
#21
Very cool. 8 categories of replays would be ladder ranks (7) +pro???
"Clothes are stupid"-Tastosis "Every dragoon that has ever been made is dumber than a bowl of hair" -Day[9] "Where are you going to take this skill now?" Stephano- "To the bank!" "Baby stuck under a car and you can't lift it up? What a wimp"-Artosis
Kon-Tiki
Profile Joined February 2011
United States402 Posts
December 02 2011 00:57 GMT
#22
Cool to see this stuff being taken seriously. I also like how they gave the players their screen names, not their real ones. I don't know Leenock's real name haha
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
talismania
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States2364 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 01:09:37
December 02 2011 01:00 GMT
#23
Hey Josh finally got that study published! I'll have to go read that now.

EDIT:

Fantastic quote from Josh's paper:

"In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities."
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
December 02 2011 01:01 GMT
#24
"For decades, a different game, chess, has held the exalted position of “the drosophila of cognitive science”—the model organism that scientists could poke and prod to learn what makes experts better than the rest of us. StarCraft 2, however, might be emerging as the rhesus macaque: its added complexity may confound researchers initially, but the answers could ultimately be more telling."
Wow. This is great. I feel so vindicated for all the time I have spent playing this video game. I hope this is just the start of this kind of deserved attention.
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 01:02:26
December 02 2011 01:01 GMT
#25
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)
Al Bundy
Profile Joined April 2010
7257 Posts
December 02 2011 01:04 GMT
#26
Nice article, thanks for the link.

Both Blair and Lewis see parallels between the game and emergency management systems. In a high-stress crisis situation, the people in charge of coordinating a response may find themselves facing competing demands. Alarms might be alerting them to a fire burning in one part of town, a riot breaking out a few streets over, and the contamination of drinking water elsewhere. The mental task of keeping cool and distributing attention among equally urgent activities might closely resemble the core challenge of Starcraft 2.


Good crisis management is certainly the hallmark of great players.
o choro é livre
MonkSEA
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Australia1227 Posts
December 02 2011 01:05 GMT
#27
Interesting read, thanks for the link to the article!
http://www.youtube.com/user/sirmonkeh Zerg Live Casts and Commentary!
talismania
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States2364 Posts
December 02 2011 01:08 GMT
#28
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)


What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed.

APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that.

Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future.
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
December 02 2011 01:10 GMT
#29
This is really really really fucking awesome.
I have been argueing for years about the cognitive significance of Starcraft.
That science is slowly recognizing this as well is a heart-warming prospect.
The article is very well written.
Hope this can accomodate for a growth of the beautiful game in the eyes of the general non-gamer public.
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
KingOfAmerica
Profile Joined April 2011
United States246 Posts
December 02 2011 01:27 GMT
#30
Awesome article! This is a lot of the stuff that excites me about this game.

I forwarded this to a number of friends who aren't familiar with Starcraft II, because I think this articulates what a pure and excellent competition it is.
The nukes gonna land on his aarrrrmmmmyyy AHHHHH
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1612 Posts
December 02 2011 01:30 GMT
#31
From the perspective of the cognitive motor system, StarCraft is the most interesting thing you could do online


Yeahhhhhh BUDDY !
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
EnderCraft
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1746 Posts
December 02 2011 01:39 GMT
#32
This article really validates the amount of hours I've dumped into Starcraft 2... I absolutely loved this article. It is remarkable how much one can extrapolate from a single game of SC2, and seldom do we realize how much thought we really put into the game. Really puts things in perspective
SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling than SC2? SC 64 is where it's at brah.
BroboCop
Profile Joined December 2010
United States373 Posts
December 02 2011 01:42 GMT
#33
very good read.

on a side note: didn't really know anything about skillcraft... now i do. to skillcraft, if you need replays from a complexity academy member (i play at grandmaster/high master level) send me a msg and i'll send them over.
Maxd11
Profile Joined July 2011
United States680 Posts
December 02 2011 01:49 GMT
#34
This was a great article and thanks to the OP for sharing it. I'M gonna cut the negative bit out of it and send it to my mom so she might for once in my life respect and understand me.
I looked in the mirror and saw biupilm69t
sambour
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada62 Posts
December 02 2011 01:50 GMT
#35
huh. Interesting stuff. I think a lot of what separates the elite from the rest is developing such expertise in most situations they encounter that they hardly have to think before reacting. I don't think that's any transferable skill, that's just experience. For instance, in the emergency situation provided in the article, an SC2 gamer would be just as lost as any other with no experience to help with prioritization and execution of any action required. That's not to say that a progamer's abilities aren't incredible, I just don't think they're applicable much anywhere else.
EnderCraft
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 01:56:21
December 02 2011 01:55 GMT
#36
On December 02 2011 10:08 talismania wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)


What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed.

APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that.

Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future.

Anyone who has been watching Day9 for a while will remember his very newb friendly "Mental Checklist" day9 daily. I truly believe he illustrates what it means to effectively use APM and play the game in that very daily. You're constantly checking for idle production facilities, checking supply, watching the mini map, assessing scouting information, choosing when to tech/upgrade, and the list goes on. What separates the pros from your average player is their ability to effectively utilize that mental checklist. Moreover, a consequent result of utilizing an effective mental checklist is higher APM than your average player.
SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling than SC2? SC 64 is where it's at brah.
nohbrows
Profile Joined February 2011
United States653 Posts
December 02 2011 02:02 GMT
#37
Really great article, and I think its a great place to point your friends to when they ask, "Why Starcraft2? Why do people play this game and what is the point? Is it worth giving someone 50 grand for it?" Love the writing style too. Nice and simplistic without caricaturing the game too much.

Also, that picture of JP and Husky Casting made me laugh so hard. It's a classic.
Seizon Senryaku!
Tektos
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1321 Posts
December 02 2011 02:11 GMT
#38
This article is utterly amazing. I can't wait to show this to some of my friends!
TastyMuffins
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada16 Posts
December 02 2011 02:26 GMT
#39
Each player begins with a small base of one of three species—terran (humans), zerg (insectoid creatures), or protoss (photosynthetic aliens).


lol protoss are photosynthetic aliens
stokes17
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1411 Posts
December 02 2011 02:32 GMT
#40
Sick article. I used SC2 in my undergraduate final psych project last year. It was only an N=1 experiment so it was silly, but I knew i was onto something with SC2!! lol.

If anyone cares, I tried to find a relationship between tempo of music listened to while playing and APM. (digitally altered the tempos of a bunch of songs and did a bunch of games at each tempo... was good ladder practice lol). I didn't get anything that was significant at p<.05, but i did get significance at p=.11 which I thought was decent for an N=1 experiment.
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