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Scientific American article about SC2+Science - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
December 02 2011 02:40 GMT
#41
Scientific American is such a badass periodical. I've had a subscription since I was 12.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
December 02 2011 02:44 GMT
#42
I'm definitely going to contact the SFU prof about this.

talismania
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States2364 Posts
December 02 2011 02:45 GMT
#43
On December 02 2011 10:55 EnderCraft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 10:08 talismania wrote:
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)


What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed.

APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that.

Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future.

Anyone who has been watching Day9 for a while will remember his very newb friendly "Mental Checklist" day9 daily. I truly believe he illustrates what it means to effectively use APM and play the game in that very daily. You're constantly checking for idle production facilities, checking supply, watching the mini map, assessing scouting information, choosing when to tech/upgrade, and the list goes on. What separates the pros from your average player is their ability to effectively utilize that mental checklist. Moreover, a consequent result of utilizing an effective mental checklist is higher APM than your average player.


I don't understand why I've been quoted here haha. I agree with everything you say it's all very true. I was responding to the guy who was wondering if having a brain-computer interface would eliminate the role of APM in SC2. We already have a brain-computer interface (our hands + keyboard and mouse!) that works excellently for translating the actions we wish to perform to the game. As you say, no matter what the interface, starcraft is a mental game.
Danger_Duck
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Burkina Faso571 Posts
December 02 2011 02:46 GMT
#44
Photosynthetic Aliens, hehe
TBA
Xivsa
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1009 Posts
December 02 2011 02:51 GMT
#45
Interesting article, would be a worthwhile topic to conduct more research. As in what kinds of multitasking are most rewarded or tracking the 'progression' of test subjects' multitasking in-game ability and how that correlates with success or stagnation.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - Bilbo
Killcycle
Profile Joined January 2011
United States170 Posts
December 02 2011 02:56 GMT
#46
You know Blizzard's doing something right when you can make scientists giddy about a video game. Great article; I think this kind of stuff is great for the game.
I fear not the shadows of glory nor the echoes of eternity; place before me a true rendition of greatness... and then we shall see.
SkimGuy
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada709 Posts
December 02 2011 03:03 GMT
#47
Reminds me of when doctors did an MRI on Flash and showed he used his brain a lot more than the average person did
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
December 02 2011 03:08 GMT
#48
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
...

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)



I think it is an interesting idea.
I think there are lots of barriers to this as an actual research project, but it is fun to think about.

I mostly agree with talismania, but I do think you could cut out some of the time it takes to actually make the muscular movements themselves, beyond the signals generated in motor cortex (which you'd certainly need). There is also a cognitive processing limit on incoming information. Experts are accessing different areas of the map more often than novices (based on preliminary analyses) so the trend for faster is better holds for screen movements as well. Nevertheless, you have to look and decide what to do (how many zealots to warp in to fend off a drop, for example), and that takes cognitive time. My instinct is that pros are probably already nearing the cognitive limits, at least in the most intense parts of the game. You'd still have something like APM, it would just be a bit faster.




SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
December 02 2011 03:13 GMT
#49
On December 02 2011 09:44 W2 wrote:
The way he explained sc2 ...


Just felt I should point out that the author is a woman, Sandra Upson. On BattleNet, you'll be right 99% of the time if you assume it's a guy, but not so much in the real world.
SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
December 02 2011 03:19 GMT
#50
On December 02 2011 10:42 BroboCop wrote:
on a side note: didn't really know anything about skillcraft... now i do. to skillcraft, if you need replays from a complexity academy member (i play at grandmaster/high master level) send me a msg and i'll send them over.



We're analyzing our first batch of data currently. After we have some idea what to look for we plan to collect mass replays for a longitudinal study. That will mean we'll need lots of games from individual players, as they progressed across leagues. We'll probably start collecting them early next year (Jan/Feb), so don't delete your old replays!


SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
.Sic.
Profile Joined February 2011
Korea (South)497 Posts
December 02 2011 03:36 GMT
#51
we should all leave a comment in the article, that way they'll realize articles on gaming attracts readers
Clan MvP Member | http://sc2ranks.com/kr/3273340/SicMvP
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 04:24:08
December 02 2011 04:18 GMT
#52
On December 02 2011 10:08 talismania wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)


What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed.

APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that.

Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future.

Oh but an NMP does change that! Re: BrainGate

Consider the simple fact that signals conduct much slower down cortical projection neurons than they do via electrical/machine circuitry. APM would be near instantaneous. It would coincide with thought, thus the physical limit imposed by mashing keys would be gone. As thought commands -- represented by unique neuronal ensembles -- are recognized by the machine, their signal is synchronously transmitted into the game as a command. There is no holdup imposed by the fact that chemical/electrical signaling down a pyramidal neuron is MUCH slower!

Obviously there are no current algorithms designed to recognize and categorize inputs to SC2 games -- yes, it's complicated work. It's not impossible at all though, and to me it's so exciting.
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
December 02 2011 04:19 GMT
#53
Is the link broken for anyone else? Or is it the site?
Never Forget.
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
December 02 2011 04:21 GMT
#54
On December 02 2011 13:19 Insomni7 wrote:
Is the link broken for anyone else? Or is it the site?

i cannot get on it either. maybe we crashed it lol
Supah
Profile Joined August 2010
708 Posts
December 02 2011 04:24 GMT
#55
Anyone have it in their cache and able to post the article? It's down for me =[
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
December 02 2011 04:25 GMT
#56
On December 02 2011 11:46 Danger_Duck wrote:
Photosynthetic Aliens, hehe


Protoss have no mouths so they can't eat. It would make sense if they were photosynthetic.
Bengui
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada775 Posts
December 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#57
Did we crash the site ?
CrushDog5
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada207 Posts
December 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#58
Down for me too.

I hope we did crash it!
Sandra said that it took a bit of convincing to get them to agree to an article about video games. Lots of hits should help change their minds.
SkillCraft.com - StarCraft + Science
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 04:29:36
December 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#59
On December 02 2011 13:24 Supah wrote:
Anyone have it in their cache and able to post the article? It's down for me =[

+ Show Spoiler [Image of Article] +
[image loading]

When the article is back up I do recommend visiting the actual site and maybe even commenting to show Scientific American that we want more articles like this on their site.
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#60
In the SA front page, beside the Blogs heading, it says "Connection Failure" lol
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
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