Scientific American article about SC2+Science - Page 3
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On December 02 2011 10:55 EnderCraft wrote: Anyone who has been watching Day9 for a while will remember his very newb friendly "Mental Checklist" day9 daily. I truly believe he illustrates what it means to effectively use APM and play the game in that very daily. You're constantly checking for idle production facilities, checking supply, watching the mini map, assessing scouting information, choosing when to tech/upgrade, and the list goes on. What separates the pros from your average player is their ability to effectively utilize that mental checklist. Moreover, a consequent result of utilizing an effective mental checklist is higher APM than your average player. I don't understand why I've been quoted here haha. I agree with everything you say it's all very true. I was responding to the guy who was wondering if having a brain-computer interface would eliminate the role of APM in SC2. We already have a brain-computer interface (our hands + keyboard and mouse!) that works excellently for translating the actions we wish to perform to the game. As you say, no matter what the interface, starcraft is a mental game. | ||
Danger_Duck
Burkina Faso571 Posts
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Xivsa
United States1009 Posts
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Killcycle
United States170 Posts
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
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CrushDog5
Canada207 Posts
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote: ... So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well) I think it is an interesting idea. I think there are lots of barriers to this as an actual research project, but it is fun to think about. I mostly agree with talismania, but I do think you could cut out some of the time it takes to actually make the muscular movements themselves, beyond the signals generated in motor cortex (which you'd certainly need). There is also a cognitive processing limit on incoming information. Experts are accessing different areas of the map more often than novices (based on preliminary analyses) so the trend for faster is better holds for screen movements as well. Nevertheless, you have to look and decide what to do (how many zealots to warp in to fend off a drop, for example), and that takes cognitive time. My instinct is that pros are probably already nearing the cognitive limits, at least in the most intense parts of the game. You'd still have something like APM, it would just be a bit faster. | ||
CrushDog5
Canada207 Posts
On December 02 2011 09:44 W2 wrote: The way he explained sc2 ... Just felt I should point out that the author is a woman, Sandra Upson. On BattleNet, you'll be right 99% of the time if you assume it's a guy, but not so much in the real world. | ||
CrushDog5
Canada207 Posts
On December 02 2011 10:42 BroboCop wrote: on a side note: didn't really know anything about skillcraft... now i do. to skillcraft, if you need replays from a complexity academy member (i play at grandmaster/high master level) send me a msg and i'll send them over. We're analyzing our first batch of data currently. After we have some idea what to look for we plan to collect mass replays for a longitudinal study. That will mean we'll need lots of games from individual players, as they progressed across leagues. We'll probably start collecting them early next year (Jan/Feb), so don't delete your old replays! | ||
.Sic.
Korea (South)497 Posts
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On December 02 2011 10:08 talismania wrote: What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed. APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that. Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future. Oh but an NMP does change that! Re: BrainGate Consider the simple fact that signals conduct much slower down cortical projection neurons than they do via electrical/machine circuitry. APM would be near instantaneous. It would coincide with thought, thus the physical limit imposed by mashing keys would be gone. As thought commands -- represented by unique neuronal ensembles -- are recognized by the machine, their signal is synchronously transmitted into the game as a command. There is no holdup imposed by the fact that chemical/electrical signaling down a pyramidal neuron is MUCH slower! Obviously there are no current algorithms designed to recognize and categorize inputs to SC2 games -- yes, it's complicated work. It's not impossible at all though, and to me it's so exciting. | ||
Insomni7
667 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On December 02 2011 13:19 Insomni7 wrote: Is the link broken for anyone else? Or is it the site? i cannot get on it either. maybe we crashed it lol | ||
Supah
708 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On December 02 2011 11:46 Danger_Duck wrote: Photosynthetic Aliens, hehe Protoss have no mouths so they can't eat. It would make sense if they were photosynthetic. | ||
Bengui
Canada775 Posts
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CrushDog5
Canada207 Posts
I hope we did crash it! Sandra said that it took a bit of convincing to get them to agree to an article about video games. Lots of hits should help change their minds. | ||
juicyjames
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United States3815 Posts
On December 02 2011 13:24 Supah wrote: Anyone have it in their cache and able to post the article? It's down for me =[ + Show Spoiler [Image of Article] + ![]() When the article is back up I do recommend visiting the actual site and maybe even commenting to show Scientific American that we want more articles like this on their site. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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