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Scientific American article about SC2+Science - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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Rareware
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada340 Posts
December 02 2011 07:11 GMT
#81
On December 02 2011 16:07 Snuggles wrote:
The link isnt working for me =(


same here
ROOT Fighting!!!
Uncultured
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1340 Posts
December 02 2011 07:42 GMT
#82
On December 02 2011 16:04 Gamegene wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 16:04 ELA wrote:
On December 02 2011 11:26 TastyMuffins wrote:
Each player begins with a small base of one of three species—terran (humans), zerg (insectoid creatures), or protoss (photosynthetic aliens).


lol protoss are photosynthetic aliens


They are.. They dont have mouths dude, they dont eat, they absorb light and feed that way, aka photosynthetic


don't they absorb water from their skin?


Sorta like plants?
Don't you rage when you lose too? -FruitDealer
NET
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States703 Posts
December 02 2011 08:11 GMT
#83
I just added Starcraftian to my vocabulary. Its only right that I should.

Such an awesome and articulate read, I'm glad blizzard posted this up on my Facebook.

I love the emergency management systems paragraph, Starcraft being used in real world situations is always great in my book.

Keep up the good work and continue writing more of these articles Scientific American!
"Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis
carloselcoco
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2302 Posts
December 02 2011 08:12 GMT
#84
Could they have removed the article?
http://www.twitch.tv/carloselcoco/b/296431601 <------Suscribe! Casts in Spanish :) |||| http://www.twitch.tv/carloselcoco/b/300285215<----- CSL: Before Sunday! Episode 3!
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
December 02 2011 08:20 GMT
#85
Pretty sweet article, it made me a happy panda
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
acidstormy
Profile Joined January 2011
United States191 Posts
December 02 2011 08:21 GMT
#86
geez they took it down that fast?? I didn't get to read
Its like trying to find a needle in a stack of needles
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
December 02 2011 08:27 GMT
#87
Seriously guys bottom of page 3 it's been said like 4 times.
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
Remb
Profile Joined August 2011
United States190 Posts
December 02 2011 08:34 GMT
#88
Of all the images they could have chosen to showcase SC2 to the masses: a Void ray attacking a hive...
A virtuous act is performed habitually, and not once from incentive alone.
nucleo
Profile Joined February 2011
292 Posts
December 02 2011 08:35 GMT
#89
the entire blogs section (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/) doesn't work for me so I guess it's not the article but the site.
So chill and try again later (:

Derity
Profile Joined May 2009
Germany2952 Posts
December 02 2011 09:07 GMT
#90
The article doesn't tell anything new. Brain activity should look like the one of a musician. Pilots should have a pretty good 3d imagination as well and also have a good crisis management.
I don't expect anything new from these studies about multitasking, only that games can be useful to train multitasking at a specific environment. So playing starcraft doesn't give you any better multitasking as team sports or sth else.
rewired
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada630 Posts
December 02 2011 10:18 GMT
#91
Super cool article! damn shame it came out 1 week after my research paper on multi tasking though -_-
The road isn't always straight.
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 14:36:31
December 02 2011 13:22 GMT
#92
On December 02 2011 15:10 fush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 14:03 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On December 02 2011 13:31 fush wrote:
On December 02 2011 13:18 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On December 02 2011 10:08 talismania wrote:
On December 02 2011 10:01 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Very interesting read, thank you for the heads up about the article. The fact that you are a researcher who likes SC2 tempts me to ask you something, so I'd love to see you thoughts

I'm wondering, what do you think about the idea of removing the motor requirement for SC2? In other words, what do you think about direct control over SC2 units via neuromotor prostheses (NMP)? The reason I'm asking is because one of the important things the article highlights is the motor aspect of SC2's difficulty. It's not like chess, where motor skills aren't really that relevant. Sure, you need basic motor connectivity to play chess, but I would argue that you don't need the refined, pruned, and much more specified corticospinal motor neuronal plasticity that you do need at high level SC2.

So, on to my rationale: It has been demonstrated in mouse, macaque, and human that neuronal ensembles (activation patterns of many neurons firing in concert to some end) unique to specific, intentional motor commands exist at the primary cortex (M1) even when corresponding limbs are no longer present or innervated. Recently, researchers have developed novel strategies combining brain-computer interface technology with algorithms to recognize and record unique, intentional neuronal ensembles at M1 corresponding to unique, intentional movements. Test patients have had electrodes implanted at M1 capable of recording and analyzing cortical motor activity. Using advances in brain-machine interface, NMPs have been developed whereby patients fitted with M1 electrodes can transfer intentional thoughts directly to a machine in order to achieve movement. For example, a patient can move a cursor around a screen based on neuronal firing patterns at the patient's M1 cortical region. First researchers determine which patterns correspond to which commands. Researchers then input these instructions, and then the NMP can match neuronal patterns to "learned" commands, thereby enabling direct neuronal control over machine-assisted movement. Therefore, it would be reasonable to apply this concept of NMP-assisted control of movement to SC2. Specifically, it would be reasonable to develop an NMP that can record neuronal patterns unique to commands in SC2, such as "stutter step marines", or "move units X distance". In theory, any number of complex commands could be matched by statistical analysis to a unique neuronal firing pattern. These patterns could be read by the NMP directly off the player's brain, enabling the player to issue commands to SC2 unfettered by motor-requirements.

So do you think it would be interesting to study SC2 if APM was no issue? It might be a novel way to examine players executing strategy at the highest possible level where literally, there are no mechanical barriers. So long as the player knows what must be done, the player can think, and the task will be executed (provided the NMP is made very well)


What makes you think APM is no longer an issue? BCIs are usually placed on the motor cortex, and are thought to primarily decode the urge to execute a command. Therefore a command still has to be executed.

APM is not dependent on finger speed - everyone can move their fingers fast enough. APM depends on the brain telling the fingers when to move, and adding a BCI does not change that.

Furthermore I've yet to see a BCI that has good enough spatial acuity for resolving individual finger movements at the speeds required. Maybe in the future.

Oh but an NMP does change that! Re: BrainGate

Consider the simple fact that signals conduct much slower down cortical projection neurons than they do via electrical/machine circuitry. APM would be near instantaneous. It would coincide with thought, thus the physical limit imposed by mashing keys would be gone.

Obviously there are no current algorithms designed to recognize and categorize inputs to SC2 games -- yes, it's complicated work. It's not impossible at all though, and to me it's so exciting.


it'd be cool, but i can't see the logic behind your suggestion. yes - it removes the latency between the motor signal and the actual button press by the fingers, but this is the pathway that everyone has to go through and isn't the issue that you're trying to get at (which, if i'm understanding correctly, is the cognitive aspect of the game).

what talismania is saying is that there simply no mechanical limitation to finger speed in SC2, which i think is true. anyone can focus solely on tapping their fingers and it's likely far faster than they can play. i think it's more likely that the roadblock is higher up, somewhere between visual processing and executive control. removing the latency between the final decision to move the finger and the finger press itself will likely not provide a different result.


I think a significant reduction in latency could be achieved via NMP based on ensemble studies in humans. I think it would affect SC2 playing ability. In other words, I think a player with a perfected NMP could achieve better results due to the fact that he would issue more commands per minute.

If you retrain the way in which you issue commands, you achieve a faster rate of issuing commands based on overcoming the need to input signals to the periphery. Rather, you input directly to a computer interface, thus there is a significant reduction in latency. It might not seem like this would be significant, but in fact it could allow a player to totally re-learn how to play SC2, faster. What if a concerted thought, along with its recognized, temporally-dynamic ensemble, achieves several actions normally requiring several motor actions? You can't argue that several motor functions vs. no motor functions is not significant. Depending on how advanced the software or analysis techniques become, you could have a lot of different things being performed simultaneously. Microing separate groups of units, near-synchronously? The fact is that you could achieve this type of near synchronous control of two groups on a screen much more perfectly with no motor requirement. You are right that you can tap your fingers furiously faster than you can issue commands or play... But issuing SC2 commands is not as simple as tapping fingers together as fast as possible. Complex, coordinated movements are required between eye, fingers, and mouse-arm. It would be significant to eliminate all those movements.


my point originally was not NMP-trained vs. normal SC2 playing. rather, assuming there are significant differences between two groups of players with differing skills, the difference between these two groups under the normal conditions won't differ significantly from the difference between these two groups after they've been NMP trained. basically, i'm having difficulty seeing how removing a single component that has little to do with the actual information processing can affect the outcome when the argument is that the roadblock to perfect play is a mental rather than mechanical one.

there's absolutely no doubt that should the technology be perfected and optimized for sc2, that performance will improve as you said. near-simultaneous actions are possible whereas they aren't when you have to queue commands normally. my point is that the point of difference probably lies upstream of when the command to move is given, and if you take out this component entirely, barring any motor deficiencies one might have, the respective changes to performance in each skill group may not be that much different from other groups pre- and post- NMP training.



I see what you are saying. I also appreciate you being clear on what I am unclear about: Here's a better way to present basic idea without letting the details confuse things:

Although the motor component of SC2 -- the requirement of inputting commands into the game -- does not constitute all of the difficulty involved in playing SC2, there is no doubt that it does play an important role in performance given the fact that there is a relatively huge time delay between instantaneously issuing multiple commands vs. quickly issuing single commands.

The article reinforces this concept and makes a point of highlighting the fact that there is a fine motor requirement in SC2. Someone with awful motor capacity will never compete with someone able to finely control and issue hundreds of finger commands based on suspected, highly plastic corticospinal neuronal plasticity. I agree with you and Talismania that obviously there is higher-order, pre-frontal processing that occurs, and this processing must happen very quickly and efficiently in order to be "the best" SC2 player. I agree that in order to REALLY be the absolute best at the game, one would have to perfect the processing that occurs on the higher-order level of thought. However, that is only relevant to the "strategy" component of RTS. The issue I'm addressing is relevant to the "real-time" component of SC2. In other words, NMP technology will not improve a chess player, given that chess has no "real-time" component like SC2 -- there is no "motor requirement" in chess. In SC2, however, the "real-time" component is tackled by endowing players with the ability to immediately enact commands at much higher rates than normal rate. Consequently, their play is only fettered by the higher order cognition to which you refer.

So in a nutshell: If this tech is pursued the way I see it, you'd have a "real-time" strategy game game whereby the "real-time" component is actually closer to real-time in that every command you desire is realized immediately, rather than lagging by the process of you issuing single, rapid commands towards achieving a larger action or immediate goal. With regard to your second emboldened point, I argue that due to this lightening of burden, there is an increase in focus that can be given to the higher-order, strategical planning center. As a result, players can execute better, more fluid play. I agree that these changes would be consistent with each group, but my goal is not to pit NMP-assisted players vs. normal players. The goal is to analyze NMP-assisted players in comparison to themselves. One could analyze 1,000 games from Mvp using an NMP and see if his overall gameplay is significantly effected. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't altered vastly due to all the reasons above, thus I'm really interested in this idea.

On December 02 2011 12:08 CrushDog5 wrote:
There is also a cognitive processing limit on incoming information. Experts are accessing different areas of the map more often than novices (based on preliminary analyses) so the trend for faster is better holds for screen movements as well. Nevertheless, you have to look and decide what to do (how many zealots to warp in to fend off a drop, for example), and that takes cognitive time. My instinct is that pros are probably already nearing the cognitive limits, at least in the most intense parts of the game. You'd still have something like APM, it would just be a bit faster.


Thanks for the reply.

Cortical plasticity has been demonstrated in humans and other animals in response to altered behavior. If you had a drop off in one requirement of the game -- the motor requirement -- do you agree that it would be possible for one to become better at the other aspects of the game (intake and processing ability)? The cortical topography corresponding to higher-order processing could be expanded in response to a loss of the specificity required to implement such motor functions playing SC2. Therefore I think an NMP's effect on playing SC2 transcends mere mechanical advantage. Instead, I think the mechanical advantage conferred by an NMP will then further enable a player to drastically improve on the "cognitive", abstract processing involved in make choices in the game, given that the player is free to devote all playing capacity to that one area. I do believe this area could be pushed to a greater limit with less neuronal circuitry devoted to the motor component of the game.
Pure-SC2
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom1440 Posts
December 02 2011 14:12 GMT
#93
What a great article.

I enjoyed it for several reasons, mainly though because I felt it in some ways justifies why I've been playing SC2 so obsessively since it's release, and legitimises my pursuit of trying to improve at it.

The other thing I really liked was the layman's explanation of SC2. I've really been looking for something like that so I can give my girlfriend a bit more of an idea about the game, and some insight into what it is I get out of it. I sent the link off to her, so hopefully she reads it

It's so great to see the so many different ways SC2 is growing, and I guess becoming more mainstream. But that just means more and more people joining our community and we all benefit from that.

Thanks for posting the article.
"Every time I visit community sites, I'm just embarrassed. There's so much witch hunting and name calling and arguing and gossip. Misogynist comments against women. It's just embarrassing." – Tasteless
ThirdDegree
Profile Joined February 2011
United States329 Posts
December 02 2011 14:28 GMT
#94
Awesome article. I'm going to link the paper on BW a bit later. It's things like this that help starcraft much more than tv coverage. Having people legitimize starcraft (and esports in general) as developing real skills is one of the best things we can do. I hope this continues!
I am terrible
driftme
Profile Joined June 2010
United States360 Posts
December 02 2011 14:40 GMT
#95
With so many moving parts, even a top-level player can succumb to paralysis.


Reminds me of Spectral
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
December 02 2011 14:57 GMT
#96
My favorite thing about the article was the link to this classic thread. There's no way you just find that - and realize how hilarious and interesting it would be to SciAm's audience - by googling "Protoss." The author must be a TL member in disguise, or at least have consulted closely with one.

Also, I just wanted to comment on the discussion going on about playing Starcraft through neural-electrical interfaces. I think that the biggest difference between doing that and playing like normal would be the game interface - as proposed, you would eliminate the time that the mouse spends moving across the screen. For marine split micro against banelings, for example, the key is making the best use of limited time while the banelings move in. If you could instantly select different groups of units and split them without wiggling your nose back and forth, the skills involved would be different. It would be a really interesting exercise technologically, and probably also for attention studies, but it would be different from Starcraft IMO.
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
Percutio
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1672 Posts
December 02 2011 15:09 GMT
#97
Good article thanks for the link.
What does it matter how I loose it?
bLah.
Profile Joined July 2009
Croatia497 Posts
December 02 2011 15:19 GMT
#98
By Sandra Upson
-this part blew my mind

pretty nice article to read, pretty easy and understandable for those who aren't into sc2
BerronDavis
Profile Joined October 2011
United States12 Posts
December 02 2011 15:31 GMT
#99
Awesome article the stuff about transferability and stuff was awesome. I think it could be used as a training tool for people to learn better multitasking.
Teamwork makes the Dreamwork!
Ganynn
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States35 Posts
December 02 2011 15:54 GMT
#100
Really interesting article, haven't read an article this well done in a while. I have been very interested in learning more about the scientific aspect behind video games in general and this was intriguing for sure. I had not heard of the SkillCraft project before but i will be sure to check it out, Cheers to HellGreen for the background information ...

On December 02 2011 09:32 HellGreen wrote:
Nice to see the project growing. :-)

Btw. background information here:
Starcraft 2 Science: Skillcraft's Study
SkillCraft.ca: A SC2 Expertise Study


If anyone has any other material like this I'd love a PM, cheers in advance.


Part-time gamer, full-time nerd.
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