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On November 01 2011 22:27 d9mmdi wrote:
Im sorry if tournament managers boast about paying "relatively quickly" is a joke to me. It cant be that complicated:
Sent winner email asking for bank account information. Issue transaction, DONE.
Its not unreasonable to exspect prize money to arrive the players within a week. If tournaments dont pay timely it means they are taking the whole thing not seriously!
If you cant rely on your sponsors to give the money they deserve the blame obviously and there should be a thread making it pubic which sponsors didnt pay, but probably tournaments want to stay on good terms with sponsors so its an unfair situation for the players.
1.) No, it's not "that easy". Why? Just read the thread... Basically: more prize money, more bureaucracy.
2.) If tournaments start to blame sponsors, you know what's going to happen? Yes, those sponsors would give eSports the middle finger. No money for tournaments --> no tournaments --> no players --> no eSports.
Don't think life's just a candy shop.
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On November 01 2011 18:54 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:I'm surprised that this many people dont know it is like this. But yeah it totally sucks. I remember there being talk on TL about this months ago and rakaka.se made some charts ![[image loading]](http://www.rakaka.se/images/7774-rakaka_prize_money.jpg) Wow, MLG is earning its respect. Now I see what is the reason why IEM lag behind in terms of good players coming to its tournaments and the tournaments quality, the organization is just much poorer. MLG FTW.
That's very interesting. Now we know why MLG has a smaller prize pool too, because they actually have the money in an acccount ready to send out to the players when the event finishes. That's how everyone should be doing it.
Also, props to Cloud and co. for speaking out against the organisations that are failing to pay them. The responses from ESWC are just ridiculous, it should be your responsibility to have the players account info before the event even begins, then once its done, boom... you can go through and select the players that were eligible to receive money and there would be no excuses. This is just my opinion, but when I hear a company say "well you didn't send us your payment info!" to me that just sounds like you want to stall as much as possible before making the payments. Insinuating that you won't invite players that expose how poorly run your tournament is just adds a further "WTF" to how you handle your PR as a business.
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I didnt though that it was so hard to get money from tournament!
WTF are they doing. Only fooling peoples?
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On November 01 2011 22:48 MasterKush wrote:
Also, props to Cloud and co. for speaking out against the organisations that are failing to pay them. The responses from ESWC are just ridiculous, it should be your responsibility to have the players account info before the event even begins, then once its done, boom... you can go through and select the players that were eligible to receive money and there would be no excuses. This is just my opinion, but when I hear a company say "well you didn't send us your payment info!" to me that just sounds like you want to stall as much as possible before making the payments. Insinuating that you won't invite players that expose how poorly run your tournament is just adds a further "WTF" to how you handle your PR as a business.
You can't just generalize things like that. Thats' not how it works.
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Welcome to e-sports SC2-community. This has been known in the CS-community for a while. ESWC are still in debt of cashprices from 2008, and according to AGAiN.TaZ they've said that they won't pay it.
I believe CPL was bad at paying to..
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The sponsors would pay upfront in any reasonable deal, at least enough to cover the prizes... it can't be an excuse.
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On November 01 2011 22:48 MasterKush wrote:
That's very interesting. Now we know why MLG has a smaller prize pool too, because they actually have the money in an acccount ready to send out to the players when the event finishes. That's how everyone should be doing it.
I highly doubt that's the reason for the prize pool, if it was I'd sincerely question how MLG operate. If you get 10 million in venture capital at the end of 2010, it is quite likely you can pay out all the winnings in 2011 right away no matter what. The real test comes when you do not have that stack of capital anymore and times get tough.
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Its very unfortunate, but this is one of the reasons I dropped out of sc2 progaming early. When I was in a pro team, our manager basically told us what tournaments we could attend and what tournaments we shouldnt attend because it would be highly unlikely to receive any prize money anyway. The stuff he told us about the things going on with the sponsors and organizers and how the whole e-sports business was handled made clear to me that its not about professional competition but about professional marketing. Its really sad but you have to deal with the fact that e-sports is another form of advertisement for most sponsors and not something taken seriously 
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On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:
Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic.
no matter how u put it, it's still unprofessional if no one came to cloud at the event to tell him some details about payment.
and i'm sure you could contacted him aswell, just to let him know that things are in process.
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For now, I propose the following sequence of steps for professionals to take before signing up for any tournament. Feel free to help me fix this, since I know little of professional gaming from an inside perspective and how these tournaments work:
1) If you are invited by one of the tournament's event organizers, check the tournament's history. See how quickly, how often, and how much they paid. Do your background research on those responsible for handling the money.
2) Ask the organizer for a copy of the balance sheet for the prize pool account which they are using, or equivalent proof the money exists. Ask through what method they will be paying.
3) Notify the organizers before signing up that you will be expecting your money within a reasonable, fixed quantity of time following the tournament's finish. Copy and save both your statement and their response both physically and electronically (if any). If they do not respond, consider not signing up.
4) If they do not explicitly promise the prize money in a written statement, do not sign up.
5) If they promise the money and you sign up, but they do not pay within their stated time frame from step 3, bring them to court or proceed to step 6.
6) Disseminate knowledge on (un)trustworthy organizations/tournaments to communities such as this and to fellow pros.
Remember that both the community and the collective progaming scene both have the power to keep these tournaments honest in absence of a governing body. There may be fewer tournaments due to this, but if 90% of them are illegitimate, you really aren't losing anything from those people not bothering to run their scams, are you?
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so much bullshit on the last 20 pages.
srsly, blaming cloud for attacking eswc... if you READ his first post and his 3rd post in this thread, you should realize how wrong you are. Calling him "a lazy cow" is stupid in so many ways, i cannot even describe it.
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On November 01 2011 23:00 FlyingDJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 22:48 MasterKush wrote:
That's very interesting. Now we know why MLG has a smaller prize pool too, because they actually have the money in an acccount ready to send out to the players when the event finishes. That's how everyone should be doing it. I highly doubt that's the reason for the prize pool, if it was I'd sincerely question how MLG operate. If you get 10 million in venture capital at the end of 2010, it is quite likely you can pay out all the winnings in 2011 right away no matter what. The real test comes when you do not have that stack of capital anymore and times get tough.
There is still no reason to not have payed ClouD's EPS Germany 2nd place from summer 2010... After 1 and a half years!
Thats just discusting and i hate the ESL for things like that. With your old system and your unbelievably slow payment, it wouldve taken more then 3 years from starting to qualify for EPS (half year eas2, half year eas1, half year season EPS, more then 1 and a half years for payment) to acutally being able to recieve any money... JUST WOW.
At least you changed the system a bit
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On November 01 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:
For now, I propose the following sequence of steps for professionals to take before signing up for any tournament. Feel free to help me fix this, since I know little of professional gaming from an inside perspective and how these tournaments work:
1) If you are invited by one of the tournament's event organizers, check the tournament's history. See how quickly, how often, and how much they paid. Do your background research on those responsible for handling the money.
2) Ask the organizer for a copy of the balance sheet for the prize pool account which they are using, or equivalent proof the money exists. Ask through what method they will be paying.
3) Notify the organizers before signing up that you will be expecting your money within a reasonable, fixed quantity of time following the tournament's finish. Copy and save both your statement and their response both physically and electronically (if any). If they do not respond, consider not signing up.
4) If they do not explicitly promise the prize money in a written statement, do not sign up.
5) If they promise the money and you sign up, but they do not pay within their stated time frame from step 3, bring them to court or proceed to step 6.
6) Disseminate knowledge on (un)trustworthy organizations/tournaments to communities such as this and to fellow pros.
I don't think a single one of those steps is reasonable.
Players don't have the time to be doing background research on tournaments. Maybe that's something the teams could do but expecting the players to do it is kinda silly.
What organizer is going to make the financial info public knowledge?! That's just absolutely silly. They're never going to give up bank account info.
3 and 4 are kinda the same and no freaking duh you expect your money in a reasonable amount of time. The issue is that sometimes shit happens that slows down the payment process. Bitching at an organizer because an eagle flies into the money truck isn't very helpful.
Maybe going to court is cheap in other countries but in the US it's prohibitively expensive to go to court and drawn out proceedings can take years (i.e. far longer than the players are already wait).
There's definitely room for improvement in the way tournaments pay players but I can almost guarantee you that setting up an adversarial relationship between players and tournaments won't improve much in the long run.
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On November 01 2011 21:38 FryktSkyene wrote:
0 days for MLG
Lead the way baby woooo
Well when your max is 5000dollar its not that hard 
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On November 01 2011 23:36 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:38 FryktSkyene wrote:
0 days for MLG
Lead the way baby woooo Well when your max is 5000dollar its not that hard
If I'm not mistaken the 5000 dollar rule, which requires you to obtain a tournament license is for the whole prize pool and not only the first place prize.
So actually there is no difference for MLG. They just pay and others don't.
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Its a known fact that ESL always had huge problems paying their prizemoneys and there are some guys waiting for money since 2007.
And this sad way of trying to get a huge popularity boost with money you aint even sure to receive(either by sponsors or signups) has been used in almost every slighty competetive game played and has often caused to upsets. The problem is that you can not really blame the event organizers if the sponsors simply do not pay(and this happens often!). Of course the organizers are often to blame for negotiating with unknown or weird sponsors/companys. Its quite obvious that many people running tournaments need to learn to actually demand the money before the event happens but as esports is still rather young and most of the organizers(especially of these small events like ugc) are rather young and inexeperienced in dealing with sponsorships,money and contracts these mistakes just have to happen. I mean its nice to have faith into a company a person but when it comes to money clear contracts and preferabely early payments are the way to go.
And its a joke that people actually still defend the ESWC, this event has been a joke since that failure in 2008 and has shown some of the most amateurish characteristics over the past months/years including late payment if at all.
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On November 01 2011 23:36 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 21:38 FryktSkyene wrote:
0 days for MLG
Lead the way baby woooo Well when your max is 5000dollar its not that hard
Apparently 5,000 dollars is hard to pay out when ESL and a bunch of other organizations can't even pay out a couple hundred dollars.
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I think pro gamers should pull out from those shitty shady tournaments, make an agreement together and dont attend. Also sue those companyes.
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On November 01 2011 02:34 csn_JohnClark wrote:
a good idea.. (besides many other needed changes) to the TL tournament tracker would be a 'rating' system.. where players that joined those events could rate each event (after completion).. on a few categories that are relevant to a successful tournament.
example: (keep the rating system simple!)
Tournament Rating: (1 being the lowest, 5 being the highest rating)
1. Production Value - 1,2,3,4,5
2. Administrative support - 1,2,3,4,5
3. Prizing clearly defined - 1,2,3,4,5
4. Tournament Structure/format - 1,2,3,4,5
5. Event Coverage and post coverage - 1,2,3,4,5
6. Website (user friendly, features, etc) - 1,2,3,4,5
7. Prizes paid within 3 months - 1,2,3,4,5
I think those are perfect ratings and if TL was to update their poorly laid out Tournament Tracker and included this rating system.. the Tournament Tracker would get a lot more use and be a lot more relevant on this site.
Again.. I think this would be the best start of a process to better identify organizations as legit and it would also serve as a way for some of the smaller organizations that do a good job at paying out to get their name out there.
If TL will not do it..then I will. But .. my guess is that only a handful of organizations and players will use it because they are too lazy or near-sighted to make a change.
ADD: 8. Player/Admin interaction - 1,2,3,4,5 (5 being excellent down to 1 being poor)
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EPT
