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SC2 is heading in the wrong direction - Page 4
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KiWiKaKi
Canada691 Posts
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:05 drcatellino wrote: Explain me guys, what is a unit that "belong in a starcraft universe" ? Seems like the only answer coming from TL is "a unit that was in BW". While I am concerned about a few design choices for HotS, I am just sad to see the constant stream of negativity and BW nostalgia float around every thread that concern the expansion. You are not game designers, don't pretend like you know better than Blizzard how to design a game. I am not saying it should be critic-proof, but this is something that requires patience, metagaming developpement before concluding it is complete shit. I remember when Sc:BW was announced (yes I remember that day), I tought it was fucking lame to have flying units that could only attack other flying units, and one was introduced for each race. 2 of them stayed quite underused, but then one of them become iconic among the years. It was not even a conscious decision from blizzard to make it so cool, it just developped that way. tl;dr: people judge too quick, it's good to give feedback but saying "it's heading in the wrong direction" is just plain premature. it's not like no one is hating on the battle hellion, warhound or the swarm host (for the most part) because those are cool changes that introduce basic units that you can use in a lot of situations. what people are complaining about are units with just general bad design. let's be honest here: is pulling units into zerglings, making any kind of unit positioning useless really a cool idea? can you use the tempest non-situationally? | ||
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mcmartini
Australia1972 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:08 aristarchus wrote: I had exactly the same sort of feeling, but not about the units. The thing that bothered me was the recall ability on the nexus. I really, really like that there are no town portal scrolls in SC2. Army positioning and poking and harass are what I really like about this game. If you can instantly get back and defend, it's just about whose army is better. Arbiters in SC:BW had the recall ability but I do completely agree with what you're saying when I saw the recall ability I did a bit of an eye roll. It seems they want the same kind of unit abilities (the spell similar to dark swarm and the swarm host (lurker)) without just putting those units into the game. :/ | ||
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duk3
United States807 Posts
Protoss should get a more generalized cool unit, maybe not a spellcaster but perhaps with something like blink, or maybe even 3 different archons for the 3 different possible pairs of templar. Also, Blizzard should stop adding charge to everything. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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monx
Canada1400 Posts
only thing tough, sc2 isnt like sc1 so comparison must stop sometimes. but i think blizzard isnt doing it right on how to fix the problems | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:10 KiWiKaKi wrote: cool story bro user was temp banned for this post. j/k/j/k I agree with most of your points TT1 but you gotta work on your spelling and grammar D: | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote: TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Do you realize that with the amount of opinions circulating in the community we would consider things that blizzard never even thought of when conceptualizing. This is a unit that was probably designed/conjured by two or three people maximum...maybe presented to a team... and made it into the alpha. If you can't see why that gives the community a pass to discuss the CONCEPT of the unit then you are lost. | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:11 mcmartini wrote: Arbiters in SC:BW had the recall ability but I do completely agree with what you're saying when I saw the recall ability I did a bit of an eye roll. It seems they want the same kind of unit abilities (the spell similar to dark swarm and the swarm host (lurker)) without just putting those units into the game. :/ I don't really love it anywhere, but I like it a lot more on a unit than the nexus. At least then it's a little more limited, can't be used until you tech to it, and could conceivably be sniped before it happens, etc. | ||
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mcmartini
Australia1972 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:13 aristarchus wrote: I don't really love it anywhere, but I like it a lot more on a unit than the nexus. At least then it's a little more limited, can't be used until you tech to it, and could conceivably be sniped before it happens, etc. I completely agree with you.  | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote: TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Pretty obvious the immediate counter to 1-1-1 will be replicator the unit is still terrible design, doesn't matter how good/bad the unit will be overall, It's just not a good idea, what will be the counter to replicator? Don't make X unit | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote: My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see. Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late. So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) This. It does not take 6 full months of beta to see that some units and mechanics planned for HotS are just plain bad. Others we can't say exactly (the Oracle has potential) but at least the Replicant is completely retarded. And I agree with TT1, it's obvious that Terran and Zerg compositions will be different, hence better (all the stuff that was there before is still here, so the optimal compositions can only be better, quite logically). Not for Protoss. You can't include Oracle in an army, and Tempest is a fleat beacon capital motherfucking money eating unit. That leaves the Replicant. 200/200 siege tanks? Yeah, Protoss! Most would have preferred a core unit (like a twilight tech gateway unit) that fits new roles in the Protoss gameplay but which you can still include in your army. As said before, the only bright side of HotS for now is the Nexus' Recall. But it will most likely be considered overpowered and nerfed to uselessness. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote: TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Did you even read the OP? He said the 1-1-1 was one of the main reasons for the replicator. I think anyone with half a clue knows that this is the case. The 1-1-1 is still a problem, but they clearly aren't going to make drastic changes via patching WoL. HotS is their opportunity to shake things up and use the beta to see if their ideas work. | ||
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
Making muta harass easier to deal with for T and P with smaller thors and the tempest. Making any kind of runbys in Zvt harder with the shredder. So terran has to worry about positioning less. Wtf there's already a planetary fortress. Giving zerg the ability to break siege lines at lair tech and even having a siege unit of their own. These are racial weaknesses that make each race distinct I think. Harass should be an issue for protoss and terran, and contains and powerful armies should be hard for zerg to deal with. If the new units are released in their current state it will dumb down the game a lot. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:40 tQKyo wrote: I don't see anywhere where he put words in blizzards mouth to specifically make a point about anything. To me most of the points are pretty straight forward and I'd agree that most of the way SC2 is being balanced is simply to just make it "easier" rather than to actually fix and let the game evolve. If there are fundamental problems with the game most of the time they're obvious or need some time to be mapped out, however, with things like timings and multitasking, you shouldn't negate all of that by simply adding something and saying "LOL WE DEALT WITH THAT FINE, NEXT?" because honestly, that's what it seems like they're doing to me. Edit for the guy above me: + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2011 11:40 KunA wrote: This I feel should have been a blog and not a post. I know your a pro but don't you think it would've been smarter to post a blog about your feelings than writing a post that comes off a little bit as whining. Half of these units probably aren't even going to be making into the final game as they are just ideas from blizzard and I mean if they have to start over from scratch with it then let them as we know they take long with their games and they come out great they aren't going to ruin this game. They'll test it with people find out its bad and fix it. No... No........... I can almost guarantee you all of these units will be there in release and I'll be more than surprised if they get taken out, maybe one or two may not make it, but that's if like they actually realize what they're doing or implementing. I don't understand how this is could even be a blog. Also, they wont ruin a game when it comes out? ZvT Steppes of War, SCV HP, Roach Cost, Roach Regen etc etc. These things were making it into the BETA. Don't expect too much change. "uhhhhhhh well kangmin hyung there was a certain build in sc2 that had a 90% winrate in tvp so blizzard decided to make a unit that allowed p users to copy a tank in order to defend it" | ||
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ChuCky.Ca
Canada2497 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
BUT, we are lacking a crucial amount of information to make any informed calls about the units presented. Frankly if you look at them, it becomes VERY obvious, that this is pre-Alpha material. I'd be very surprised if more than 3 of the units make it into the game unchanged. The shredder in it's current form seems like a deal breaker in Tvz to me, whereas some of the Zerg changes make me scratch my head and fear for my life (burrow movement for banes? ultra charge underground and appear in the middle of my formation?). TT1s post is talking about design direction, not specific gameplay balance. Such a post is frankly fine, and now is the ideal point to talk about it (though to a large extent the only possible answer is: "blizzards way or the highway"), discussions about the specific balance and effect a unit has are premature at the very least, frankly we should talk about that when the Beta starts. Ps: To the guy who referrenced the Lan comment, frankly that has been fixed since the days they designed the multiplayer netcode, meaning before the alpha went live nearly 3 years ago. Thats a tad different than a unit design decision, remember how much stuff changed during the beta? 1 supply roaches? etc. etc. If you completly dislike the design direction Blizzard is taking, sure go ahead and post your worries, frankly the amount of caster focus worries me as well, but i still feel SC2 feels like a Starcraft game and not like WC4. | ||
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Iselian
United States56 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
How is the Oracle ever going to be used in combat? It has one spell that MIGHT be "ok" in battle (Phase Shift), but other than that it is clearly a unit meant to be used separately with your army. The Tempest has no spells and the replicant is a unit which rewards foresight over desperation. Arc Shield only drops 20 damage to light and 5damage to everything else. It was probably intended to defend Banshees and SCV all-ins It comes down to where you draw the line. A typical Protoss army has around 3 spellcaster units, Sentries, Stalkers and High Temps, if you believe that is fine then Terran/Zerg getting additional spellcasters shouldn't even be a big deal since they only tend to have 1/2 at most | ||
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