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I have a much better idea. Instead of whining and complaining, you actually give them some ideas maybe? If you all you go is bitch about how shitty it will be then give them or us or anyone some ideas on what they should do.
Most of this thread is a bunch of people complaining on how much of a bad job they have done in introducing the expansion through first impressions(which for some reason most think it's absolutely the only time to talk to get things fixed ex- orb post and everyone re-posting it)
How about giving them a few ideas on some units or mechanics you would like to see but if you make any reference to BW units(ex- bring back lurker/reaver blahblahblah) or the likes I think you should just go back to broodwar just like dusty says. It's a new game there will be new units, some will be similar to old units but not exactly the same because theyre trying to create a new game with some sort of the same feeling.
I'm starting to find these threads really annoying. If they're doing such a bad job at it then why are you playing it(you can't say because it's a good game because you just said they're doing a bad job of making it.) andor why can't you think of ideas to help them. Maybe we should just let all of you create the game. I think we'd just end up with Broodwar with better graphics
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On October 26 2011 12:22 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:17 Tula wrote:
To some extent i agree with Orb about his point that NOW is the time to complain about some things, because later they might be fixed in development.
BUT, we are lacking a crucial amount of information to make any informed calls about the units presented. Frankly if you look at them, it becomes VERY obvious, that this is pre-Alpha material. I'd be very surprised if more than 3 of the units make it into the game unchanged. The shredder in it's current form seems like a deal breaker in Tvz to me, whereas some of the Zerg changes make me scratch my head and fear for my life (burrow movement for banes? ultra charge underground and appear in the middle of my formation?).
TT1s post is talking about design direction, not specific gameplay balance. Such a post is frankly fine, and now is the ideal point to talk about it (though to a large extent the only possible answer is: "blizzards way or the highway"), discussions about the specific balance and effect a unit has are premature at the very least, frankly we should talk about that when the Beta starts.
Ps: To the guy who referrenced the Lan comment, frankly that has been fixed since the days they designed the multiplayer netcode, meaning before the alpha went live nearly 3 years ago. Thats a tad different than a unit design decision, remember how much stuff changed during the beta? 1 supply roaches? etc. etc.
If you completly dislike the design direction Blizzard is taking, sure go ahead and post your worries, frankly the amount of caster focus worries me as well, but i still feel SC2 feels like a Starcraft game and not like WC4. I know its been fixed that's my point. Do you think if HoTS comes out with a unit which then ends up being completely ridiculous in terms of strategy they will remove it? Of course they won't so why not make sure they know our concerns now so we don't have to wait for LotV for the next fix to remove that unit or add one that could potentially arrive in HoTS.
Yes actually they have and will cut units during Beta if they are shown to be completly absurd. Remember the WoL beta? quite a few things changed and quite a few things were cut during it. Not units themselves, but spells were moved, spells were cut, damage done etc. etc. etc.
As i said, if you think it is a straight up gameplay design problem, then complain away (though personally i think it won't achieve a lot). But regarding units "XY is overpowered blabla" save that for the time when we actually have some data to back that up.
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On October 26 2011 12:20 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 11:52 Jayrod wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) Bumping this because of the 5 idiots that posted his pet-peeve afterwards TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. And the whole point of the post was not about its being useful or not, OP or UP, it's about the unit's design itself. Starcraft being a standout RTS game because of its 3 unique races, unlike other games when you have like a billion races but they're all the same. The point is the replicator doesn't necessary improve the game's balance, but it would definitely destroy the unique feel of starcraft, and it is the direction fans of starcraft don't want the game to go.
Hahaha if you play this game for it's unique feeling, i wouldn't be complaining about the replicant. Every friggin unit they have created is no longer creative, Collosi (war of the worlds), battle hellion (transformer?), war hound (I think in control said something about mech warrior or something). My point isn't that starcraft isn't creative, i'm just saying that it isn't any unit that makes the game unique, it's the way the entire game plays out.
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in BW the only melee unit terran had was a firebat, and that had a range of 2? iirc
protoss would use zealots only to tank damage, and in zvp zergs would go mass hydra
i agree with the statement about the protoss units though, nobody knows what role specific units will play, and blizzard trying to limit the roles before people can even use them will just ruin the units.
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ill try and save face for protoss and counter argue you. First off fundamentals of protoss is they are suppose to be technologically superior then both zerg and terran so them adding a replicant is not far fetched. 2nd it would take insane micro to replicate a infestor, select it, storm, forcefeild, micro collososu to target light units and the fact that its 200/200 + 4 supply, they will overwhelm in the end which they already do and the fact that if im not mistaken thats from robo so that means less warp prissm/obs/immo/collosus (you have to think of that aswell)... Arch cannon will have to be tweaked i think to have it proxy to your nexus in a radius similar to sensor tower but even if it forces 3-4 arch cannons per harass, that is already enough damage in itself as that could have been probes or upgrades or unit production.. For every cause there is a reaction and it gives protoss more option, maybe remove a bit from multitask but it increase decision making which is a skill aswell and is a lot harder to teach/replicate. (im not saying your wrong just giving a different view)
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So basically continue with the consensus that Toss is getting boned in HoTS
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i dont wanna totally dive into everything u just said but theres 1 thing i wanna ttalk about
u talk about them simplifying the toss race with this arc cannon. now i wanna compare this to supply drop that terran can do.
the terran supply drop has a strategic purpose where there are timing windows you can "boost" your "money" instantly by using supply drop. (for example the korean 3rax allin which is extremely calculated and timing based). it also has a purpose of saying, well mules remove my bank (the total money on my side of the map/the mineral sources i can access this game) but supply drop "gives" me "money" for free.
this all sounds cool but in reality its acutually almost only used for easying up the game, you forget a supply depot, you have energy and u drop a supply and feel abit ashamed because you know its not optimal and you only use drop supply because your macro is bad
now lets get back to the arc cannon. im not sure if this is what you meant by this unit but it might be very similar to the supply drop.
it has strategical uses such as say, there are optimal positions of the game in my build vs certain things where i should save energy incase of an attack where i need arc cannons. there are timing windows in my build where i need to save energy for arc cannon.
another calculated and logical way of using it could be for example j ust like the 3rax supply drop terran marine rush, you might use arc cannon as an aggressive way to put pressure (or call it allin i dont care just trying to explain an example here with no much detail).
now just like the supply drop, the first thought that comes into mind is, wow that is great. this is really strategical and brilliant people who can optimize this can really stand out from others, just like is same thought of supply drop.
but perhaps it will have the same problem, perhaps it just makes the game more noob friendly. "oh im being dropped my army is out of position and i forgot to chroonoboost, well lets put down some arc cannons".
so what u have here is an idea initially that is great, but it turns out just not to be practical at all, its just forgiving, as u said "basic mechanics" which is an extremely important part of the game to display skill and raise from the others.
so my personal opinion about arc cannon, i have none. i actually have to wait and see what actually happens, but i hope i got to explain both sides of things how it ideally turns out and how it can actually turn out in reality whether or whether not this is a good "feature" of the game
gotta ask u TT1, is this what u meant about the arc cannon? do u understand what im talking about here?
again, im just focusing on a very few parts of the discussion here but in great detail and core because maybe all the problems u have right now with sc2 is the core, and its all based around this
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;;
TT1 speech
I've felt like for a long time as a former WC3 player of 6 years that SC2 felt more like WC3 than SC:BW.
I've felt for a very long time that late game always comes down to:
Terran EMPing before Storms T > P or visa versa
Terran EMPing before Fungals T > Z or visa versa
The reason still goes back to the unit pathing/clumping. It honestly helped to make SC:BW a better game by having worse pathing. Everything is a ball now, so nukes are so much more important/viable when massed.
Browder knows this and they are trying to fix it. I agree that it would be wrong to just go back to the old pathing. EMP's radius just got nerfed, maybe Storm/Fungal need a slight nerf as well.
OR buff the energy cost. Make it so you need a lot of energy to use these skills like 150 so that if you go 20 infestors and use all the energy/don't win the game there then you lose.
I do agree that the Protoss units feel like gimmicky. The best part is, whats going to happen when a Terran player goes a Banshee open vs a Toss without Cloak so he can go a different tech by saving 200 gas but the Toss rep's it and has cloak and just go harass'es the Terran.
Hilarious.
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On October 26 2011 12:22 iaguz wrote:
I wish I had an archive of threads from 13 years ago complaining about the new units added to Broodwar. It could look like this:
"Lurker is a dumb name, doesn't sound Zerg at all! It should be the Spiderlisk."
"Disruption web looks so pointless, Corsair is so gimmicky. Should remove this unit imo."
"Why no love for the Scout unit?"
"Oh, thanks for putting Valkyries in the game, that just shuts down mutalisks so hard! Why bother making this unit now! Fucking blizzard can't design for shit"
"A PERMANENTLY invisible unit that 1 shots workers, requires no upgrade to do so and comes from the same tech as psi storm? Explain how protoss lose now kk."
"Stim Marines are gonna be so op with medics supporting then ><"
Still the case today in SC2 
- NMHU.
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On October 26 2011 12:19 slicknav wrote:
Maybe we should wait until beta/release before we pass judgement? I don't think these new units are etched in stone
Exactly, they're not etched in stone - so feedback should be provided, ie: this thread.
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People defended Warcraft 3 when it came out, while top players were ripping it apart and exposing its fundamental flaws (hero system etc.). People argued that we should wait and see, since BW had been around 7 years.
7 years later from WC3, what do we have? The game is directly inferior to BW. The sad thing, is that it's still more fun than SC2 - SC2 having some of the worst combat mechanics (see TvP).
This game needs to be fixed. BW has already been around for 13 years, it's time to learn from it, instead of ignoring it.
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Pretty much agree, blizzard are focusing on making the game friendly for bad players, and ruining it for everyone else. Personally I think all 3 of the new Protoss units are horrible and hope none of them make it to release. The replicator is a total joke and doesn't belong in a competitive game, just sounds like a cheap gimmick to have another races unit in the protoss army, I was hoping for better out blizzard. Dustin Browders response to no LAN is also ridiculous "too hard" how stupid do you think your customers are?
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Send this(With cleaned up structure, capitalization[c'mon], and grammar) to blizzard!. You pros have some lines of communication with them, I've heard. Let them know! I agree entirely with your post content. There are some things where it's like "Wait and see." However, you're right, the new units need a lot of work, and its easy to see how they'll play out.
A lot of these new units seem like things that were rushed decisions just to show us *something* new at Blizzcon. Designers under a strict deadline, etc. Can't be angry at it, they WANT our feedback. They seem to really want our opinions to make the best game possible for us, and the best profit margins for themselves. Win-win, correct?
I'm NOT happy with the Shredder, the warhound, the Replicant, or the Oracle's nonsense abilities(resource stun, preordain). Let's consider this a first draft, and we the community are the editors!
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On October 26 2011 12:28 nakedsurfer wrote:
I have a much better idea. Instead of whining and complaining, you actually give them some ideas maybe? If you all you go is bitch about how shitty it will be then give them or us or anyone some ideas on what they should do.
Most of this thread is a bunch of people complaining on how much of a bad job they have done in introducing the expansion through first impressions(which for some reason most think it's absolutely the only time to talk to get things fixed ex- orb post and everyone re-posting it)
How about giving them a few ideas on some units or mechanics you would like to see but if you make any reference to BW units(ex- bring back lurker/reaver blahblahblah) or the likes I think you should just go back to broodwar just like dusty says. It's a new game there will be new units, some will be similar to old units but not exactly the same because theyre trying to create a new game with some sort of the same feeling.
I'm starting to find these threads really annoying. If they're doing such a bad job at it then why are you playing it(you can't say because it's a good game because you just said they're doing a bad job of making it.) andor why can't you think of ideas to help them. Maybe we should just let all of you create the game. I think we'd just end up with Broodwar with better graphics
That's a stupid way to approach the situation, its not the job of the community to design the game. The way it works (and I'm sure the way blizzard wants it to work) is that they introduce something (as they are doing) and then they gather feedback (exactly whats going on in this thread), and finally they make a decision. While there usually is a ton of complaining in most threads involving game design, there are a few posts that actually contain viable feedback, such as the fact that a unit like the replicant is highly situational and gimmicky (a problem that already exists in WoL). Asking the community to propose new units is disastrous, especially since the direction blizzard wants to take the game in may not be the direction the community wants to take the game in. The solution is to find a middle ground.
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Oh man, things used to be so good back then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-efficacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia
BW babbies aren't immune from these.
This is actually annoying to see in SC2 threads, seeing BW babbies try to reason through nostalgia and self-efficacy. As if the people who started with BW can move on to SC2 and have an objective opinion about both. It's just not possible, no matter how hard you try.
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There's one serious issue I have with your post. You say that Arc Shield makes Muta harass and drops non-viable. You kind of need to offer numbers to back that up. I remember hearing exactly one story about how powerful Arc Shield was, and it said that a proxy Pylon laid down by Artosis got one SCV down to 5 health before dying. If you're suggesting that this can defend harass by itself (completely ignoring the fact that Terran can just drop four Marauders, which I am appalled to see you overlooked--did you not know Arc Shield only damages light?), then the Protoss will have to Arc Shield something like seven or eight buildings to come close to the power of a couple of Photon Cannons. Only building that can fit so tight behind minerals is the Pylon, so your suggestion is to actually use more Pylons to defend from drops than would be needed in Cannon money to offer adequate protection. This is completely ignoring the energy cost of such a stunt, which gets even more absurd when you consider that Protosses might want to save up for Recalls. In short, I see no actual evidence to support your reactionary claim that Arc Shield will reduce micro or interaction as opposed to just making early Zergling, Marine, and Zealot rushes weaker, as it was designed to do.
All in all, I see your point of view as far too reactionary and based around predictions of doom for the Protoss race. I will agree that the Replicant is an unbalanceable unit and will most likely be cut, but a slightly altered Oracle could be very cool indeed and a Tempest with a couple of useful upgrades could be an excellent capital ship. I hate to say it, but this resembles a QQ thread more than anything, especially a reasonable criticism of design.
If you can provide reasonable evidence that Arc Shield is powerful enough to defend against Muta harass and Marine drops, then I humbly redact a significant portion of this post, but request you address the issue of non-Light Medivacs dropping non-Light Marauders.
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Let's have a thread about the units every day until HotS comes out, that will be very productive!
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On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:52 Jayrod wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) Bumping this because of the 5 idiots that posted his pet-peeve afterwards TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is.
Yea this guy really called TT1 an idiot
On October 02 2011 16:52 McPhiz wrote:
well im still bronze and i've played all three races and i almost never lose with P or Z, T seems to be the hardest for me!
Just for reference. Please don't call pros idiots.
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On October 26 2011 12:28 nakedsurfer wrote:
I have a much better idea. Instead of whining and complaining, you actually give them some ideas maybe? If you all you go is bitch about how shitty it will be then give them or us or anyone some ideas on what they should do.
Most of this thread is a bunch of people complaining on how much of a bad job they have done in introducing the expansion through first impressions(which for some reason most think it's absolutely the only time to talk to get things fixed ex- orb post and everyone re-posting it)
How about giving them a few ideas on some units or mechanics you would like to see but if you make any reference to BW units(ex- bring back lurker/reaver blahblahblah) or the likes I think you should just go back to broodwar just like dusty says. It's a new game there will be new units, some will be similar to old units but not exactly the same because theyre trying to create a new game with some sort of the same feeling.
I'm starting to find these threads really annoying. If they're doing such a bad job at it then why are you playing it(you can't say because it's a good game because you just said they're doing a bad job of making it.) andor why can't you think of ideas to help them. Maybe we should just let all of you create the game. I think we'd just end up with Broodwar with better graphics
im not a game designer so thats not my job, my role is to give my opinion on balance issues/game mechanics and such, why do u think map testers get progamers to test their maps out before releasing them to the public? same logic applys in this situation
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This is one thing that i don't like about the gaming community, false assumptions. A lot will make QQ or "opinionated" threads that doesn't make sense because why? they don't have any plausible agreements to back it up. It's the same with Moba, RTS etc.. people just assume that this is stupid or imba or UP before it's even out. Hots release is coming soon but it's not yet complete and still under construction. Blizzard know what they are doing and our option is just to wait.
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EPT
