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On October 26 2011 12:08 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) I completely agree with this. Everyone wanting LAN support can watch that interview with Dustin Browder and see that his reasoning for no LAN is that it is too far in to do anything about it. I don't want this to happen with HoTS as well where units are too ingrained into the balance that nothing can be done. I feel that the game development should be guided more by the pro community as a whole, and there should be less of the 'one of this unit' syndrome. The Thor isn't meeting its quota so they create the warhound. So why keep the thor in the game at all? It's specifically mentioned it's for 1-a newbies, (me being one of them), but why when trying to become a better player would I want to use it? :/ Less 'cool' units and more units that actually have a place and purpose in the game.
Ok, when you are talking about hardware requirements for LAN support, and in addition sidestepping the hardware that has been dedicated to running SC2 in its current form, you are talking about serious resources and a complete paradigm shift in the game deployment. That is NOT a quick, inexpensive fix. Software CAN be a quick fix via a patch. You aren't even comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing apples to cars.
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It's sad that they aim for the "cool factor" with spells like the pull thing with viper, or charge with ultralisk, transformer units etc.
What I hate most is the fucking replicator. It's just silly for me that Protoss should have the ability to get any unit from my unit composition and race. I don't play Terran and make tanks so you can get your own fucking tank.
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Why are half the posts in this thread talking about metagame...? That's not the point at all. The idea is that SC2 is heading in the wrong direction, and that with HotS it will feel less like starcraft than it ever has.
It's pretty easy to look at the trailers for HotS and know that lots of the units are just... stupid. In my eyes, they don't fit into StarCraft at all. It feels like these ideas are being drawn from things like WC3, and not broodwar.
This is actually annoying to see in SC2 threads, seeing BW babbies try to reason through nostalgia and self-efficacy. As if the people who started with BW can move on to SC2 and have an objective opinion about both. It's just not possible, no matter how hard you try.
I'd be interested to hear where you would draw inspiration from if you were on the unit design team at Blizzard. Newsflash: SC1 and SC2 both have "StarCraft" in the title. When i saw the Replicant for the first time, it absolutely did not strike me as a unit that belongs in starcraft. It is a terrible unit design that wanders away from the fundamentals of what a starcraft unit should be. All of the HotS units are niche units that serve no purpose beyond countering a specific thing.
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On October 26 2011 12:31 MorroW wrote:
i dont wanna totally dive into everything u just said but theres 1 thing i wanna ttalk about
u talk about them simplifying the toss race with this arc cannon. now i wanna compare this to supply drop that terran can do.
the terran supply drop has a strategic purpose where there are timing windows you can "boost" your "money" instantly by using supply drop. (for example the korean 3rax allin which is extremely calculated and timing based). it also has a purpose of saying, well mules remove my bank (the total money on my side of the map/the mineral sources i can access this game) but supply drop "gives" me "money" for free.
this all sounds cool but in reality its acutually almost only used for easying up the game, you forget a supply depot, you have energy and u drop a supply and feel abit ashamed because you know its not optimal and you only use drop supply because your macro is bad
now lets get back to the arc cannon. im not sure if this is what you meant by this unit but it might be very similar to the supply drop.
it has strategical uses such as say, there are optimal positions of the game in my build vs certain things where i should save energy incase of an attack where i need arc cannons. there are timing windows in my build where i need to save energy for arc cannon.
another calculated and logical way of using it could be for example j ust like the 3rax supply drop terran marine rush, you might use arc cannon as an aggressive way to put pressure (or call it allin i dont care just trying to explain an example here with no much detail).
now just like the supply drop, the first thought that comes into mind is, wow that is great. this is really strategical and brilliant people who can optimize this can really stand out from others, just like is same thought of supply drop.
but perhaps it will have the same problem, perhaps it just makes the game more noob friendly. "oh im being dropped my army is out of position and i forgot to chroonoboost, well lets put down some arc cannons".
so what u have here is an idea initially that is great, but it turns out just not to be practical at all, its just forgiving, as u said "basic mechanics" which is an extremely important part of the game to display skill and raise from the others.
so my personal opinion about arc cannon, i have none. i actually have to wait and see what actually happens, but i hope i got to explain both sides of things how it ideally turns out and how it can actually turn out in reality whether or whether not this is a good "feature" of the game
gotta ask u TT1, is this what u meant about the arc cannon? do u understand what im talking about here?
again, im just focusing on a very few parts of the discussion here but in great detail and core because maybe all the problems u have right now with sc2 is the core, and its all based around this
yup i understand wat ur saying and yea its exactly like the supply depot drop, its basically a failsafe that allows u to cover up for any mistakes that u make
oops my units are out of position and im getting dropped > arc shield to defend the drop, mechanics like these dont belong in the game imo, it just reduces multitasking and doesnt punish lesser players for the mistakes that they make(without going into the strategic possibilites that it might bring to the game)
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I just dont like how many "upgrades" each race has. It's what I loved about BW - the focus on armies and not cute spellcasters and units you have to upgrade 3 times to make them good. Playing the game @ blizzcon made me feel like I was playing WC3 without upkeep, to a certain extent...
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On October 26 2011 12:39 Termit wrote:
It's sad that they aim for the "cool factor" with spells like the pull thing with viper, or charge with ultralisk, transformer units etc.
What I hate most is the fucking replicator. It's just silly for me that Protoss should have the ability to get any unit from my unit composition and race. I don't play Terran and make tanks so you can get your own fucking tank.
And if I wanted to make tanks I would play Terran! Blizzard is being stupid with this design. Protoss race makes Protoss units. It's a slap in the face to Protoss players to give us a unit that merely turns into units of other races.
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You're right TT1. And the reason you got all those peripheral units is because they're avoiding replacing the colossus, currently the main problem inhibiting sc2's excitement.
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I generally agree with you, protoss units are poor in design and need a serious rework. TBH I don't want to see any of the new protoss in HoTS, I want units that toss needs. An early harass/scouting unit that is CHEEP (BLIZZARD NOT A 200 GAS STARGATE UNIT) for one, add splash dmg to phoenix, we don't want an oversized corsair that is slow and t3, and the replicator is totally against the way that sc2 works... give us something else please.
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I agree that some of the unit designs are stupid, but in the Dustin Browder interview, he said that for the most part, they thought of units and then put them in the game. They hardly tested them. ex:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUdMJVMvkY#t=16m50s
Timestamped to 16:50; suggest watching from 16:50-17:38
(there were two other instances of DB saying that they aren't afraid to remove and that they hardly tested them.)
So don't get completely discouraged. However, don't stop the complaints. Blizzard needs the feedback, but I don't want any progamers quitting because of the preview. Hopefully Blizzard will be very flexible in this beta.
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im pretty sure that one of the main reasons why they created it was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terran's(plz note that i could care less whether or not the unit is OP or UP, what im trying to get at is that its role/function has no place in SC), adding a unit to the game just so that it can hardcounter a specific style is simply just horrible game design
I don't think it's fair to criticize blizzard based upon assumptions, I'm pretty sure they just wanted to add in something they thought would be cool and useful. In the blizzcon sc2 panels Dustin Browder repeated many times that they had no problem scrapping units or making big changes if something isn't working out before HOTS releases.
I do, however, agree that the game is becoming too spell-oriented and too easy (with the current proposed changes for HOTS). Starcraft should never be easy, if anything it should be too hard.
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On October 26 2011 12:44 ander wrote:Show nested quote +This is actually annoying to see in SC2 threads, seeing BW babbies try to reason through nostalgia and self-efficacy. As if the people who started with BW can move on to SC2 and have an objective opinion about both. It's just not possible, no matter how hard you try. I'd be interested to hear where you would draw inspiration from if you were on the unit design team at Blizzard. Newsflash: SC1 and SC2 both have "StarCraft" in the title. When i saw the Replicant for the first time, it absolutely did not strike me as a unit that belongs in starcraft. It is a terrible unit design that wanders away from the fundamentals of what a starcraft unit should be. All of the HotS units are niche units that serve no purpose beyond countering a specific thing.
They have the same name? Is that your serious thought process?
Holy crap. Try to compare two games with the same name anywhere else. Try to compare WoW (Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP), FF(1-14? with a double 13 or something insane), Halo(1-4 and CE and whatever), anything, you will see changes.
There are no fundamentals for Starcraft2. This isn't Starcraft: Brood War 2, if they wanted to make Starcraft: Brood War 2 they would have. They do not want to make Brood War 2 and are trying to not make Brood War 2. That does not make Starcraft 2 a bad game just because Brood War was a good game, they can make a good game that is not Brood War.
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arc shield is most likely going to be removed, and it better be. arc shield goes against the entire spirit of the game.
im a master protoss player and i still feel 6pool should be viable
actually, against gateway-first builds 8pool is EXTREMELY strong, stronger than 6pool. 8pool hits with its lings only like 13 seconds later but has way more economy and 8pool can pump endless streams of lings while getting queen and having money to spend his larva injects on drones/expansion
anyway regardless, i feel early pool builds SHOULD be viable. the zerg should be able to threaten the tosses front with lings without the toss getting free cannons
i feel mass recall on the nexus is good and okay to have on the nexus. i feel its a balanced / good ability for protoss to have. but arc shield needs to go.
also i agree the new units are pretty lame. I feel each race should have 20 combat units. blizzard says they only want about 15 combat units per race but i feel going up to 20 isnt a bad idea, theres still plenty ideas out there that could make unique combat units fit in all the races
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while I agree that I don't really like the replicant much, it's for vastly different reasons. First of all, I dislike your argument about why the replicant is a bad unit. What your starting argument basically amounts to is "well TvP had a specific build with a 90% win rate, so we decided to fix that and give toss a more viable means of defense"... how is that a bad thing? I don't think it's negative that blizz decided to try and balance the races more. However, I still don't like the replicant for a few reasons:
1) I do share your opinion that while Terran and Zerg units are pretty open in terms of versatility, the toss units are pretty specific, with the exception being the harass one that blocks mineral lines. However, whereas the new units for both Terran and Zerg looks amazingly powerful, the Toss units are lackluster in my opinion, and they feel like they weren't as creative as the other units shown. They just don't have the same new heft that the battle hellion and the viper do.
2) Stemming from my first point, I felt like the blizz creative team just didn't really have anything to work with on the toss side of things. The new additions don't feel creative or particularly cool in any way, as opposed to the awesome shredder. I want to see some cool new units on the battlefield when I march my battle hellions in, and a void ray with an AoE attack that looks kinda lame isn't my idea of "innovation."
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I'm not sure your I agree with your characterization of BW as being more about fighting units than spellcasters. The main spellcasters in BW are all overpowered as fuck, and they play an absolutely essential role in the game.
Spellcaster with virtually infinity energy with a spell that lowers all units in a massive area to 1 HP? No biggie, counter it with your extremely fast flying unit with a 75 energy spell that's a guaranteed kill on any Zerg unit but an Ultralisk. I don't think I even need to talk about High Templar in BW.
On October 26 2011 12:45 aquanda wrote:
I just dont like how many "upgrades" each race has. It's what I loved about BW - the focus on armies and not cute spellcasters and units you have to upgrade 3 times to make them good. Playing the game @ blizzcon made me feel like I was playing WC3 without upkeep, to a certain extent...
Did we play the same game? Brood War has upgrades galore, pretty much the same amount as SC2, and you have to upgrade your spellcasters to make them useful. Templars don't even have a starting spell, they come out of the gateway and the only thing they can do is become Archons.
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While it's good to have pros giving feedback to the HoTS ideas, this thread also shows that such feedback is of limited use.
Arc shield shutting down "any sort of drop play and muta harass"? Oh ffs come on, the hp bar of a marauder w/ medivac won't even move with a 5dmg cannon tickling it. Does a missile turret completely shut down muta harass? Not at all. Burrowed banelings is hive tech, they move way slower than than upped OLs and doesn't have the OL hp as a buffer so getting any connecting in a straight up battle will be incredible hard. I mean what is David supposed to make of such hyperbole nonsense?
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Completely agree with this post. A lot of Dustin Browder's game design flaws are even apparent in WoL, and definitely are showing in these new unit designs. The amount of anti-micro units/spells that have been added and are planned on being added is appalling.
Planetary Fortresses, Force Fields, Fungal Growth, the list goes on and on. All these spells discourage/inhibit micro from shining. If this trend continues, there's going to be almost nothing to distinguish top players from one another in terms of micro skills.
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also i think its good to note that dustin said they pretty much thought up crap and put it in without testing it, and they said they arent afraid to remove most if not all of the units if they decide it should be removed
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On October 26 2011 12:50 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:44 ander wrote:This is actually annoying to see in SC2 threads, seeing BW babbies try to reason through nostalgia and self-efficacy. As if the people who started with BW can move on to SC2 and have an objective opinion about both. It's just not possible, no matter how hard you try. I'd be interested to hear where you would draw inspiration from if you were on the unit design team at Blizzard. Newsflash: SC1 and SC2 both have "StarCraft" in the title. When i saw the Replicant for the first time, it absolutely did not strike me as a unit that belongs in starcraft. It is a terrible unit design that wanders away from the fundamentals of what a starcraft unit should be. All of the HotS units are niche units that serve no purpose beyond countering a specific thing. They have the same name? Is that your serious thought process? Holy crap. Try to compare two games with the same name anywhere else. Try to compare WoW (Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP), FF(1-14? with a double 13 or something insane), Halo(1-4 and CE and whatever), anything, you will see changes. There are no fundamentals for Starcraft2. This isn't Starcraft: Brood War 2, if they wanted to make Starcraft: Brood War 2 they would have. They do not want to make Brood War 2 and are trying to not make Brood War 2. That does not make Starcraft 2 a bad game just because Brood War was a good game, they can make a good game that is not Brood War.
SC1 and SC2 having the same name obviously suggests that have a common thread that relates them. StarCraft is not WarCraft, and Halo is not Counter-Strike. Many of the units that were revealed in HotS are so far from that relating thread that they make no sense, and are completely out of place. They don't make sense, and they don't belong in this game.
Of course there will be changes, and of course SC2=/=SC1; that's obvious. But you can't deny that they're related. There are basic fundamentals that make a unit a good starcraft unit. I agree that they can make a good game that is not BW, and aside from a few major shortcomings with WoL, they did a pretty good job; for the most part. Unfortunately, with what i've seen with HotS, i feel they are making StarCraft worse. They are taking away from what they've done.
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I'm not really worried about balance per se, I think as long as blizzard doesn't screw up majorly it'd be ok. What I'm more worried about is that there are just too many spells and ends up like a space WC3... I think the backbone of SC should still be just straight up im-gonna-kill-you units.
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On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC
I don't get why it's so hard for many to understand this, the type of unit that the replicant is just doesn't fit in SC2, it fits perfectly well in World of Warcraft. Atm it doesn't even come down to tweaking numbers/stats, it's use is bad for gameplay. I also agree with them removing micromechanics like baneling drops. I wanted them to add more microing too, not by bunch spells though. Poor poor thinking blizzard. Im really okay with a lot of the great units given to T and Z, but some of them also don't fit. Viper's deathgrip pulll...seriously that's also world of warcraft. Having to micro units is fun, preventing micro with spells like FF/FG are not fun, but they have made it work and balanced a bit, adding more like pulls is not smart though.
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EPT
