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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:18 Iselian wrote: Didn't they say the replicant was one of the units they were most unsure about? Can anyone source this? I hadn't heard that but would be really interested to find out if they actually said that. | ||
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Hnnngg
United States1101 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:00 ander wrote: SC1 and SC2 having the same name obviously suggests that have a common thread that relates them. StarCraft is not WarCraft, and Halo is not Counter-Strike. Many of the units that were revealed in HotS are so far from that relating thread that they make no sense, and are completely out of place. They don't make sense, and they don't belong in this game. Of course there will be changes, and of course SC2=/=SC1; that's obvious. But you can't deny that they aren't related. There is something that makes a unit a good Starcraft unit, that has basic fundamentals that fit with the game. I agree that they can make a good game that is not BW, and aside from a few major shortcomings with WoL, they did a pretty good job; for the most part. Unfortunately, with what i've seen with HotS, i feel they are making StarCraft worse. They are taking away from what they've done. But you'd have a subjective opinion from BW experience. If people want Starcraft 2 to be it's own game, they need to not associate it with BW because of the wikipedia links I provided in my post. Nostalgia and self-efficacy will work against being objective and empirical. It's unavoidable and dangerous because of how they work together. Nostalgia making things appear better than they were in the past and self-efficacy making people think they are actually competent regardless of actual competency, basically working together to fill the holes of what I like to call "BW Babby Syndrome". This makes it seem like BW will be the best thing ever, that every game should be like BW, and there is no way that the person could be wrong because they played BW. It's insane. The people who make the game are not BW maniacs (from what I've seen, looks like C&C and Redline). BW isn't completely absent but they need to have multiple perspectives, not just a BW perspective. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore arc shield> removes any sort of threat of muta harass or dropplay(pvz and tvp), being able to defend drops/muta harass with ur units was a skill which tested ur multitasking abilities, now with arc shield their just making the game much easier to play for p users i wont go too in depth but i can name off various changes which blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play(another one that comes to mind is the ingame timer, having good game sense/timing was an art in sc1), they need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics which promote micro engagements(or at the very least prevent from removing them lol) also i just wanted to briefly talk about the new protoss units in HOTS, it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the other races, for example the viper/swarm host are good all around units which are going to work well within and vs almost any unit compo, the same can be said for the terran units to an extent.. the t/z army mixs are going to be vastly different from the ones that weve been seeing in WoL but does anyone honestly think that the protoss army compositions are going to be any different? the tempest is an extremely role oriented unit(that is extremely expensive and psi heavy aswell) which will only be made if z goes for a heavy muta composition, the oracle is a harasser and the replicant is a horrible unit design that i dont want to waste time talking about, i promise u that in a huge majority of the games p users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/collo army comps =/, our unit variety seriously sucks I don't see how burrowed baneling movement affects banelings drop at all, you really think Protoss players are going to be walking their army around against a Hive tech Zerg without an Observer? The Arc Shield seems far too weak to really fend off serious drops, seems like more of an early game spell to hold off rushes. The Oracle and Replicator both seem to have the deepest potential of almost all the new units, I can imagine all kinds of powerful timings that could arise from phasing out an enemy tech building, and the Replicator's potential is obviously huge. You're pretty much just jumping to massive conclusions based on no evidence at all. And people were asking for that ingame timer for a long time, and it's not like you're forced to use it either. It's a useful mechanic but ultimately doesn't make the game any easier, you will never see someone beat their superior because they have the clock turned on! | ||
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alwaid
United States96 Posts
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penguinking
United States23 Posts
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:08 Cofo wrote: Can anyone source this? I hadn't heard that but would be really interested to find out if they actually said that. in the video he introduced us the replicant for the first time. he said there were too much balancing issues, especially if you can build a CC with a scv then starts getting mules | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
What a post, what a mind. Ladies and gentlemen... TT1! In all seriousness some of the new units do worry me, but we have to keep in mind that this is not the finished version of the game :D | ||
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ander
Canada403 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:11 Hnnngg wrote: But you'd have a subjective opinion from BW experience. If people want Starcraft 2 to be it's own game, they need to not associate it with BW because of the wikipedia links I provided in my post. Nostalgia and self-efficacy will work against being objective and empirical. It's unavoidable and dangerous because of how they work together. Nostalgia making things appear better than they were in the past and self-efficacy making people think they are actually competent regardless of actual competency, basically working together to fill the wholes of what I like to call "BW Babby Syndrome". This makes it seem like BW will be the best thing ever, that every game should be like BW, and there is no way that the person could be wrong because they played BW. It's insane. The people who make the game are not BW maniacs (from what I've seen, looks like C&C and Redline). BW isn't completely absent but they need to have multiple perspectives, not just a BW perspective. When looking at the future of SC2, the comparison is drawn to SC1 because, quite simply, SC1 is the standard. It's fairly easy to subjectively say that BW is the standard for which SC2 should strive. This does not necessarily mean that SC2 should equal BW. I don't look at SC2 and think "I hope that one day, it's just like BW." I think: "I hope one day, it's greater than BW." Also, i hope i haven't misled you; i think SC2 should be a different game. In fact, It's one of the main reasons why it's popular. But there is a line where additions like the ones in HotS become so abstract that they have no coherency whatsoever, and that's what i'm afraid of. While you CAN make a game better than BW that is different, there are certain fundamentals that you cannot stray away from. HotS units that have single roles (he's making mutas? quick, tempest!) is a bad idea. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
Replicant: -Doesn't belong in SC2? It's the protoss, they have high tech, if they want to give other races over powered combos that can't be countered by toss than this is how to keep balance. -I highly doubt it's for the 1/1/1. It costs 200/200, thats wayy too expensive for a siege tank. Arc Shield: =You make it seem too good. It can be cast on one building and it costs a bit of energy(75, i think?) yeah mutas will be fended off for the moment but it's just like forcing scans, except for protoss. In terrans case, marauder drops are still really good reguardless of the arc shields 5 damage. Overlord Drops, in relation to banelings: -Drops are still pretty useful for zerg, will still be researched in long games. -Eventually zergs are gonna become super pros at engaging and will engage armies getting a surround while dropping banes on. It's hard to do, but it eventually needs to be done -Burrowed Banes give zerg something to make the enemy respond. Zerg doesn't have enough of that. Game design, reguarding casters: -I think sc2 HOTS and Bw are pretty close in terms of casters and yeah I like where they're going they aren't just adding casters for fun, they're adding casters to solve weaknesses and create dynamic engagements. Protoss armies won't change and I'm TT1 and I don't like my race's army comps apparently: -They don't need to, now we just have better harassment, late game we can steal really good units the enemy has, and late game air dominance(or atleast forced magic boxing). I like the armies as is. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:17 alwaid wrote: I agree with you that I dislike having so many spellcasters in the game, it just feels like a spellcaster mechanic removes a skill set (such as ff's stopping terran micro) in the game, which is good currently but if you introduce too many spellcasters, it nullifies too many other skills and eventually the skill ceiling will drop and become who can be the best with certain spellcasters and other skills (macro, micro, positioning, etc) become way more downplayed. I guess we'll have to see when HotS actually comes out, but I definitely don't want starcraft to play like wc3 or dota or LoL, which is the direction that it could be heading. There are plenty of micro-nullifying spells in Brood War. Maelstrom, ensnare and stasis field all make microing your units pretty much impossible, and against spells like EMP, Irradiate or Plague you really can't micro. Your opponent either missed or he didn't, although you can split your units pre-emptively, just like in SC2. | ||
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TheLOLas
United States646 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:08 Cofo wrote: Can anyone source this? I hadn't heard that but would be really interested to find out if they actually said that. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279030 Basically, they don't want to apply too many restrictions, otherwise they're ditching the unit, and they aren't sure if op unit combos could be made. For example, they don't want to make it so that can't be massive and can't be a worker and can't be a spellcaster, too complex. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
I never thought about the unit vs unit spellcaster vs spellcaster thing. It definitely does seem most micro belongs to spellcasting now. But I do think that might just be a choice. For example you could throw down some storms, guardian shield, and then for the rest of the battle just worry about blink micro'ing and splitting up units, etc. But I guess part of the reason why this isn't very effective is cus units clump together so well. Even the top pros don't always split up their units so much. With good AI pathing there's not much need to make sure your units are attacking the closest ones etc., like if it were a big battlefield and all the units were spread out.  | ||
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dcsoda
United States583 Posts
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Hnnngg
United States1101 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:21 ander wrote: When looking at the future of SC2, the comparison is drawn to SC1 because, quite simply, SC1 is the standard. It's not my nostalgia for BW that makes me say that. It's because I think few people would argue against that. BW is the standard. I don't look at SC2 and think "I hope that one day, it's just like BW." I think: "I hope one day, it's greater than BW." Also, i hope i haven't misled you; i think SC2 should be a different game. But there is a line where additions like the ones in HotS become so abstract that they have no coherency whatsoever, and that's what i'm afraid of. While you CAN make a game better than BW that is different, there are certain fundamentals that you cannot stray away from. HotS units that have single roles (he's making mutas? quick, tempest!) is a bad idea. Well, we have come to that weird point in discussion when we just agree with each other. So to the specifics, additions to HotS being bad. I'll go to the example you gave, the Tempest. The Tempest is actually good against Ground too. That's the point of the capital ship, to be added to the main army and add another layer of strength. But then, what distinguishes capital ships amongst races? Well, the carrier didn't do anything within a niche (probably why they removed it) so they added the Tempest and gave it a strong Anti-Air AoE attack. That's not the main idea behind the Tempest however, just like the Yamato Cannon is not the main idea of the Battlecruiser. The Battlecruiser is also good for adding another layer of strength to the main army and then also functioning as an "anti-massive" unit because of the Yamato Cannon. The Brood Lord is also good for adding to main army, they're extra strength adding Broodlings to the main army in order to provide a "Swarm" buffer to the enemies ground forces. I really don't know of any HotS units that have "single roles" other than the obvious (I don't know why people like the Shredder when it only has a single role). But if you look at WoL units, you could make the same argument. What does the Viking do? The Viking is for Anti-Air and that's it. Landing a Viking is terrible and will get smashed by anything with a ground attack. What does the Dark Templar do? It kills workers, queens, addons, pylons, other things. It can only harass and only if there is no detection. The Dark Templar is far more limited in use than the Protoss units introduced in HotS. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Don't get me wrong I think most Protoss reading TL would love buffed Carriers. But this is about new units, not changed units. It's a bit hypocritical to complain about other changes like burrow move banelings without also considering stuff like recall on nexus. I'm sure not everything will make it to release as-is. My god, remember the Roach supply nerf? How long did that take? | ||
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ander
Canada403 Posts
Replicant: -Doesn't belong in SC2? It's the protoss, they have high tech, if they want to give other races over powered combos that can't be countered by toss than this is how to keep balance. -I highly doubt it's for the 1/1/1. It costs 200/200, thats wayy too expensive for a siege tank. It's a ridiculous unit. It belongs in C&C. It's function has no coherency with sc. Arc Shield: =You make it seem too good. It can be cast on one building and it costs a bit of energy(75, i think?) yeah mutas will be fended off for the moment but it's just like forcing scans, except for protoss. In terrans case, marauder drops are still really good reguardless of the arc shields 5 damage. The idea is that it's too noob friendly; ie, keeping on top of your chronoboosts will matter less, because if you let it pool up, just spend it on these. Same thing as terran supply drops, as has been pointed out previously. Overlord Drops, in relation to banelings: -Drops are still pretty useful for zerg, will still be researched in long games. -Eventually zergs are gonna become super pros at engaging and will engage armies getting a surround while dropping banes on. It's hard to do, but it eventually needs to be done -Burrowed Banes give zerg something to make the enemy respond. Zerg doesn't have enough of that. Yeah, it'll be researched, but not for baneling drops. Why use overlords drops when you can just burrow under the forcefields? That's dumbing it down quite a bit. Game design, reguarding casters: -I think sc2 HOTS and Bw are pretty close in terms of casters and yeah I like where they're going they aren't just adding casters for fun, they're adding casters to solve weaknesses and create dynamic engagements. All these HotS casters have incredibly niche roles, and casters running around all over the place is more akin to wc3 than sc. There are more creative and more effective ways to solve weaknesses while still adding to the game. Protoss armies won't change and I'm TT1 and I don't like my race's army comps apparently: -They don't need to, now we just have better harassment, late game we can steal really good units the enemy has, and late game air dominance(or atleast forced magic boxing). I like the armies as is. Giant deathball vs. deathball is lame. No HotS addition will solve this, because they are all hard counter units that have only one specific use. | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;; i felt like i had to give my thoughts on the new expansion because im worried about where our game is heading, units like the replicant go against wat starcraft is about.. im pretty sure that one of the main reasons why they created it was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terran's(plz note that i could care less whether or not the unit is OP or UP, what im trying to get at is that its role/function has no place in SC), adding a unit to the game just so that it can hardcounter a specific style is simply just horrible game design, could u ever imagine someone trying to explain what the role of the replicant is to a player like nal_ra? There is absolutely no evidence for your claim. What will an oracle require to be built? Do we even know how the timings will work for that? We're talking about a 200/200/4 (min/gas/supply) unit that supposed to, in your mind, counter a 1-base play from Terran? If a Toss attempts to use Replicant to hold 1-base play, I can't imagine a scenario where they'll have the support units to hold off the attack, even WITH a tank/banshee on their side to combat the 1-base play, how will they do that? "Sweet, I stole your tank, now go fight, my 2 Zealots, fight for AIUR!" A single replicant will mean 2 less sentries, less stalkers, no immortals, and the unit may not even go into the game as we can clearly tell from the Browder interview, he makes it fairly clear that they're looking closely at how that unit works out. burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore Have you played with the burrowed banelings? Do we know for certain that they'll move, while burrowed, fast enough to catch up to a Toss Ball and make drops obsolete? I don't know of a strong protoss player that isn't capable of including an Observer in their death ball (one of the reasons many zergs stopped using Roach Burrow-Move to get past FFs) and shoot the banelings before they even make it past the FF line. arc shield> removes any sort of threat of muta harass or dropplay(pvz and tvp), being able to defend drops/muta harass with ur units was a skill which tested ur multitasking abilities, now with arc shield their just making the game much easier to play for p users I don't believe that Arc Shield is designed to be strong enough to hold off strong drops, muta harrass and etc. One of the anecdotal examples given was a game where Artosis? Placed a pylon in someone's mineral line and cast Arc Shield on it, it was able to ALMOST kill a peon before the pylon was killed. One thing that I know for certain is that if you're correct, and Arc Shield totally removes the ability to harass and drop a Protoss base, it will be nerfed or removed before Beta is done. It's the REASON they got rid of Kaydarin Amulet, what makes you think they won't see the exact same problem, and fix it THIS time as well? i wont go too in depth but i can name off various changes which blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play(another one that comes to mind is the ingame timer, having good game sense/timing was an art in sc1), they need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics which promote micro engagements(or at the very least prevent from removing them lol) The in-game timer is a fantastic addition. You still need game sense and timing in SC2, and it's still an art, because just like BW, you still need to scout to know what your opponent is doing. All the timer does is change "Oh, my X is done, now I know I need to scout and decide what to do next." into "Oh look, it's X time, good my X is done when it's supposed to, now I need to scout and decide what to do next." I'd love to know what spellcasters you consider useless, and I'd LOVE to know what mechanics you'd like to see to promote micro engagements. I'd love to know what, besides a broken pathing system from BW, was done that removed micro from the game. Because when I watch the best players in the game, I see plenty of it. also i just wanted to briefly talk about the new protoss units in HOTS, it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the other races, for example the viper/swarm host are good all around units which are going to work well within and vs almost any unit compo, the same can be said for the terran units to an extent.. the t/z army mixs are going to be vastly different from the ones that weve been seeing in WoL but does anyone honestly think that the protoss army compositions are going to be any different? the tempest is an extremely role oriented unit(that is extremely expensive and psi heavy aswell) which will only be made if z goes for a heavy muta composition, the oracle is a harasser and the replicant is a horrible unit design that i dont want to waste time talking about, i promise u that in a huge majority of the games p users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/collo army comps =/, our unit variety seriously sucks I think this whole paragraph is just a giant whine-fest because you're afraid of change. I think the Oracle is a very strong harassment unit (based on the limited video footage I have seen) that Protoss players will LOVE to include in their strategies. I think you might be right about the Tempest, but since it's replacing an (mostly) unused unit of the Toss army anyway (Carrier), who the hell cares if it's only made in response to heavy mutalisk play? If we see it twice in an entire tournament, that will still be TWO MORE times than the average carrier sighting. The replicant is the only obvious design question-mark, and by the sounds of the DB interview, the design team is already questioning it on their own. So in short, stop worrying, stop complaining, and wait until we actually have all of the information (ie. during Beta when we see how the metagame is actually working itself out) before the whine-fest starts. | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
Thing is, they can't actually buff Protoss or give them an additional early-game unit without strengthening the power of the already frightening deathball. The 200/200 Protoss army is already unbelievably strong, and slight tweaks for the sake of the early game would have devastating effects on the already powerful late game. Thus, the only options left to empower protoss are Stargate plays (because again, all of the protoss power is already in the Gateway/Robo, so anything with real power needs to come from the Stargate to deviate from the Deathball tech path), or do something else gimmicky like the Replicator or the Arc Shield. Again, as mentioned in the OP, these open up entirely new cans of worms that he already spoke of. So what is the solution? I'd go get hired at Blizzard if I knew. My gut is telling me that if the Colossus had been removed instead of the Carrier, the stats of everything else could be balanced around it, and some new low-tier anti-bio cannon could be added to take its place. (Something akin to the reaver immediately springs to mind, but I don't want to turn this into a SC2 vs BW debate.) The colossus is one of the Protoss race's greatest strengths, and the unit that makes balancing them properly next to impossible. If the colo were removed, and some other AoE mechanic took its place, then the rest of the gateway unit stats could be buffed, and we could also see a nerf to FF. Of course, all of those changes would make PvP a joke and 4gate come back with a vengeance....all of the things that would make PvZ and PvT a beautiful, back and forth matchup would make PvP even more of a farce than it already is. tl;dr -- The whole Protoss race needs a redesign as drastic as what happened between RoC and TFT in the War3 days. Until then, it will always feel overtuned/undertuned in its current state, as opposed to Terran and Zerg. | ||
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