Give it a rest man. While its true that the skill in SC2 is mostly memorization while BW was APM and multitasking, its still a good game.
At the same time, protoss already has a good "composition" while zerg doesn't. Browder said they don't want to add more to the death-ball of terran and protoss; which makes sense. Its ok to add to the deathball of Zerg because zerg doesn't have a deathball.
Also, who cares where the skill is, melee units, multitasking, spellcasters; who cares as long as its there ? Or at least they make sure to increase the cap. I don't.
If you want "game-sense" even with the timer, play ZvT, see how much you lack scouting and how much of the game you have to blindly account for. ;]
On October 26 2011 14:03 ChroMaTe_ wrote: I do agree with the amount of Spellcasting units, some people have made the comparison to WC3. I wish they wouldn't have introduced so many new units ... it's basically restarting the whole game and some aspects of the game pro's have been practicing for over a year (ie. Marine splitting) is not going to be used nearly as much as the vast array of units will overtake the role of other units. In layman's terms, I just think there's simply too much stuff.
You think people are going to stop splitting their marines in HotS... why? As far as I know banelings will still do splash damage and marine splitting will be just as essential against them, to avoid getting mucked.
burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
No it doesn't. Burrow move banes move as slow as burrow roaches. There's a reason why burrow move roaches suck ass against robotech. 1 storm will just kill all of them trying to move past FF's. It's also hive tech, so most people agree that the baneling burrow move option is useless. It's cool, but Zerg's lategame is already strong. No one is saying Zerg lategame is a problem (at least, as in too weak).
arc shield> removes any sort of threat of muta harass or dropplay(pvz and tvp), being able to defend drops/muta harass with ur units was a skill which tested ur multitasking abilities, now with arc shield their just making the game much easier to play for p users
If you aren't chronoboosting probes and upgrades and tech, then you are going to be quite behind. The level of play where someone can just arc prism to defend against muta harass is going to be the level of play where that won't decide the game. It also only hurts light units, so a roach takes zero damage from it, for example.
Arc prism has some cannon rush cheese options, particularly since it's gateway tech, but it's obviously going to be changed. It will help with early terran aggression, and possibly ling/roach, but it won't do that much. There's a reason Terran doesn't scan all game long in the early game.
i wont go too in depth but i can name off various changes which blizzard has made just for the sake of making the game easier to play(another one that comes to mind is the ingame timer, having good game sense/timing was an art in sc1), they need to stop adding useless spellcasters to the game and focus more on adding game mechanics which promote micro engagements(or at the very least prevent from removing them lol)
The ingame timer means I no longer play with a clock next to my screen. Pretty good change imo.
This game is much easier on the UI. It's just what SC2 is. If you want a game with challenging UI, play BW. This is a different game, you and many others seem to forget that and refuse to have a new game.
Don't get me wrong, BW is the best game ever, better than SC2. But I would rather have a new game, than someone try (and fail) at making an exact copy.
I don't know what useless spellcasters you are referring to. Are you referring to the mothership, which Blizz admits is a failure, to which they are replacing? Maybe the thor's strike cannon, another removal to which they said was a failure? What about ghost emp, which they are nerfing?
in HOTS, it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the other races, for example the viper/swarm host are good all around units which are going to work well within and vs almost any unit compo, the same can be said for the terran units to an extent..
They don't want to add to the deathball. The swarm host is a super shitty combat unit, something I think everyone who didn't go to blizzcon doesn't understand.
As in, there is no reason to ever make Swarm hosts in an evenly matched game. it's only role is to put mild pressure on a 2-3 base opponent who is turtling hardcore, specifically terran, when you have entered the mid-game with a huge ass lead but can't do anything with your lead besides expand.
Then the viper encourages zerg aggression and anti-deathball. I can tell you don't play Zerg, but it's super obnoxious how someone can just turtle up on 2 base and Zerg's only option is to play for another 20 minutes and macro up. Yea. It's a lot of fun for Zerg when every game you play is either a loss under 20 minutes, or a 50/50 even game that's longer 20 minutes. With the swarm host and Viper, hopefully we can go fucking kill scrubs who turtle on 2 base despite us just completely outplaying them.
. the t/z army mixs are going to be vastly different from the ones that weve been seeing in WoL but does anyone honestly think that the protoss army compositions are going to be any different?
You are wrong.
TvZ, Terran is going to have 1-2 warhounds just like 1-2 thors, but have them out earlier and be more able to defend with them due to mobility (remember, 4 mutas beat a thor magic boxed, so just like with the thor, you need support for it to kill mutas like turrets and marines). They may put shredders around for defense, but their composition will be the same. The battle hellion is bad in TvZ.
TvP, Terran may incorporate more battle hellions instead of marine/marauder and no longer endlessly kite, although it's more likely the battle hellion is for low level people, not high level people who know how to kite.
PvZ, both armies will be exactly the same. Zerg can't use hydras due to storm and colossi, not because of their low speed, the low speed just makes midgame aggression with hydras hard, and since hydra speed is hive tech, it effectively does nothing. Zerg lategame is when Zerg is fine, it's the midgame that Zerg struggles with, and with the new Viper, sentry abuse like endless ramp FF'ing and stupid deathball play with Vr/Colossi will no longer be viable. PvZ will be the same, but Protoss now has lots of options to harass, and Zerg can protect itself from abusive sentry usage and attack turtling protoss with BC. It will become much more dynamic.
Of course, balance is far from done on HOTS. They aren't even sure about the units they have, and talking with them, it's likely the replicant will be removed or drastically changed. I would actually bet the replicant, in it's current form, will not be in even beta. Remember, there was no raven or broodlord 3 months before beta came out for WOL, instead being the swarm lord and nomad. A lot will change.
Discussing balance right now is just stupid. They are going to drastically change a lot, and they are still planning on adding more units.
Not to mention half of what you said is outright wrong. Wait until you play HOTS before you start bitching, because as someone who played it, you are completely wrong in your understanding of the new units and mechanics.
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote: The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
On October 26 2011 14:03 ChroMaTe_ wrote: I do agree with the amount of Spellcasting units, some people have made the comparison to WC3. I wish they wouldn't have introduced so many new units ... it's basically restarting the whole game and some aspects of the game pro's have been practicing for over a year (ie. Marine splitting) is not going to be used nearly as much as the vast array of units will overtake the role of other units. In layman's terms, I just think there's simply too much stuff.
You think people are going to stop splitting their marines in HotS... why? As far as I know banelings will still do splash damage and marine splitting will be just as essential against them, to avoid getting mucked.
Isn't adding more spell casters removing the 1a syndrome that we have had so far with sc2? Are people saying this is a bad thing?
I think the future is looking bright...more interesting games will definitely come out, and there is now rewards for splitting up armies (more map control units for races other than terran) so we can see a small forces engage at places across the map, without instantly being at a huge disadvantage.
On October 26 2011 14:03 ChroMaTe_ wrote: I do agree with the amount of Spellcasting units, some people have made the comparison to WC3. I wish they wouldn't have introduced so many new units ... it's basically restarting the whole game and some aspects of the game pro's have been practicing for over a year (ie. Marine splitting) is not going to be used nearly as much as the vast array of units will overtake the role of other units. In layman's terms, I just think there's simply too much stuff.
You think people are going to stop splitting their marines in HotS... why? As far as I know banelings will still do splash damage and marine splitting will be just as essential against them, to avoid getting mucked.
Clearly didn't understand my point. People are not going to stop splitting their marines randomly, they're going to stop splitting marines because marines won't be used.
Marines... won't be used..? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, why do you think marines won't be used?
On October 26 2011 14:03 ChroMaTe_ wrote: I do agree with the amount of Spellcasting units, some people have made the comparison to WC3. I wish they wouldn't have introduced so many new units ... it's basically restarting the whole game and some aspects of the game pro's have been practicing for over a year (ie. Marine splitting) is not going to be used nearly as much as the vast array of units will overtake the role of other units. In layman's terms, I just think there's simply too much stuff.
You think people are going to stop splitting their marines in HotS... why? As far as I know banelings will still do splash damage and marine splitting will be just as essential against them, to avoid getting mucked.
Clearly didn't understand my point. People are not going to stop splitting their marines randomly, they're going to stop splitting marines because marines won't be used.
Marines... won't be used..? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, why do you think marines won't be used?
Its ok, he's terran and has never needed to make a raven before. He just doesn't know. : )
On October 26 2011 11:48 brachester wrote: Also the shredder and the warhound looks like supreme commander units rather than sc2 lol
Well, they have a tendency to copy things, dont they XD
Anywho, the game kinda makes me think that zerg are gonna become even weaker, they are obviously going to seriously nerf swarm host, viper, energy cost for the pull will probably be 125/200total like with contaminate, and banelings can move when burrowed, ultras get burrow charge. Terran: AoE shredder destroys zergling swarms/chargelots Mech Hellions: stronger then pre blue flame nerf hellions? Mech,walker... thing: Cheaper thor/Terran Immortal? Protoss: Tempest: Big = expensive? Copycat thingy: only copy things that IT has seen (no siege tanks in PvZ) 3rd thingy XDDD: idk, havent seen much from it, didnt see any attacks
On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote: The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
Are you kidding?
Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. I'm going to keep playing it, but I'm just crossing my fingers for someone to make a promod.
On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote: The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
Are you kidding?
Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. I'm going to keep playing it, but I'm just crossing my fingers for someone to make a promod.
Hyperbole makes you sound dumb. While that bw video is impressive, it's not that far beyond what people can do in sc2. Albeit without a reaver it is impossible in sc2 but mechanically it's not so different from the pvp trend of warp prism immortals.
On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote: The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
Are you kidding?
Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more.
Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: im pretty sure that one of the main reasons why they created it was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terran's(plz note that i could care less whether or not the unit is OP or UP, what im trying to get at is that its role/function has no place in SC), adding a unit to the game just so that it can hardcounter a specific style is simply just horrible game design, could u ever imagine someone trying to explain what the role of the replicant is to a player like nal_ra?
I would just love to hardcounter !scouted! 1base All In's, because these are too strong and frustrating to play against in SC2 imo.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;;
Oh, the irony. Shall we count the ways?
First, of all of the "bitching about HotS units" threads, your "wall of text" is on the shorter side. Second, you managed to write your warning in ALL CAPS, but you must have used up the "shift" key, because you then refused to use capital letters at the start of sentences and with the word "I".
Also, punctuation doesn't come in pairs. It's one period at the end of a sentence, not two.
On to your actual points:
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
Observer. It costs 75 gas, and is on the way to a unit that you're going to want anyway. Hell, Zerg have to pay 200 gas just to turn a single unit into a mobile detector. And since Baneling Burrow-move is Tier 3, it's not like they're going to surprise you or anything. Baneling bombs are still going to be more effective.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: arc shield> removes any sort of threat of muta harass or dropplay(pvz and tvp), being able to defend drops/muta harass with ur units was a skill which tested ur multitasking abilities, now with arc shield their just making the game much easier to play for p users
Are you planning to line your mineral patches with Pylons and such? Because they can just take the damage from your Nexus firing. Also, doing this costs a Chrono-boost cycle, so even casting it does economic damage early-to-mid game.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/n54e14.gif)
