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On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. ![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/n54e14.gif) Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision.
Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize.
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On October 26 2011 15:05 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision. Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize.
there also hasnt been a decade to have macro so ingrained into a person that its just second nature for them to do it...leaving more room for people to micro.
People keep judging sc2 and saying theres little micro. I think in 3 or 4 yrs we'll be seeing insane micro...where people arent relying on 1 control group..and just use control groups to focus their camera while boxing units to keep your units contsantly spread while marching across the map.
however i do agree i think alot of the ideas posed for hots were pretty bad. i think the collo as a unit has painted protos into such a tough corner that everything added to the game is more about what works with collo and not what adds to the race.
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Why does everyone keep saying wait for the beta? How many units were added/removed in WoL beta? As far as I know not a single one. They changed some abilities and stats around but units as a whole weren't... Now is the best time for community to show whether or not they like the DESIGN of the new units (he isn't whining about stats but the design) and I agree with most things he said.
And lol whoever said replicant had 'lots of uses' well no shit it can change into any unit, doesn't mean we WANT to use other races units. And changing it to your own is difficult since you already need to have one of the units already anyway, yeah it will make tech switching easier but at a HUGE cost since 200/200 is more expensive than anything you can copy.
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Nal_rA: "wat does cute lil thing do?"
Huge Nal_rA fanboy(aka me): "uhhhhhhh well kangmin hyung there was a certain build in sc2 that had a 90% winrate in tvp so blizzard decided to make a unit that allowed p users to copy a tank in order to defend it"
Nal_rA: "LOL"
I want to hear that conversation
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I think you are for one really overestimating the arcshield, and second burrowed banes will porbably not replace banlingdrops since if they have an obs which they will (if burrowed banes become the norm) more banelings would die before they reach the target then they will if dropping.
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On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding?
Oh hey you used the GIF I made.
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HOTS will be heading to beta and balancing and patches and then, Another expansion following that
I'm a fan of that
Soo I'm a fan of the direction the game is heading
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If your response to "The Replicant unit design is crap." is "Wait till Beta before complainining.", then you either don't know what "Beta" means, or you're simply an idiot, sorry to say.
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
I don't agree with this, ff should come with at least one photon cannon so you can spot the burrowed banelings. In case the banelings wanted to go a deeper base (main), it would be easier to just drop them.
The purpose of the burrowed Bling is to repel possible timings from Terran like 2 tanks and 12 marines. Right now you must have luck to do so with banelings :/
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i agree completely with tt1, personally the moment i saw the colossus i knew i was going to hate it so much, and then protoss got balanced around it T____T
i was really hoping for a good gateway unit, aka a gateway unit that doesnt suck, as for the replicator i didnt choose protoss to play terran or zerg, its nice as a possibility vs someone who is far inferior in play but terrible for actual competitive play
i have felt it from the start, there are so many things in this game vs bw that just level out the skill differences so that inferior players are rewarded more than the players who legitimately work at the game and get better at it, in bw most people would never be able to come close to crushing a A/B ranked player (iccup) without a TON of practice and understanding of the game, however in sc2 its possible for a low masters/high diamond player to get lucky and play evenly against a high masters/gm player -_-
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On October 26 2011 15:15 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:05 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision. Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize. there also hasnt been a decade to have macro so ingrained into a person that its just second nature for them to do it...leaving more room for people to micro. People keep judging sc2 and saying theres little micro. I think in 3 or 4 yrs we'll be seeing insane micro...where people arent relying on 1 control group..and just use control groups to focus their camera while boxing units to keep your units contsantly spread while marching across the map. however i do agree i think alot of the ideas posed for hots were pretty bad. i think the collo as a unit has painted protos into such a tough corner that everything added to the game is more about what works with collo and not what adds to the race.
No way man. To say that we just need more time so that everyone gets used to macro is also silly. I mean first of all SC2 macro is ridiculously easy compared to bw macro. I really don't think anyone can argue that, it's pretty much fact as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, I don't mind that, but it's true. Not to mention the fact that many people in SC2 come from bw, so boxer and Nada, and July, and all the other pros that didn't make it big at all in bw, all have the macro down almost perfect I'd assume. I really don't agree with the idea that they'll get better at macroing. I think they're about as good as it's going to get in that area, unless severe macro changes take place in hots, which I don't think are needed.
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Dustin Browder has said that they're just going all out with these ideas and haven't really thought about balance because if they don't, they would not be able to change a single thing. They would be too scared too. While I may not like some of the ideas they presented, at least they are not afraid to go come up with something new. Some things are a bit of a throwback but there are some things that are new. Of course they will balance it the best they can but can't always do so because the metagame shifts and it is impossible to see all the possibilities of a unit right away. Much like the way it was for hellions before. It took months for them to realize that the blue flame upgrade was way overpowered and it happened only when people realized how good hellions actually were when they were controlled properly.
In addition, Blizzard has also mentioned that they are not worried with a race being broken in beta because no one has paid for the game yet. But they will not release a game that has obviously broken race.
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On October 26 2011 15:27 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:15 Falcor wrote:On October 26 2011 15:05 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision. Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize. there also hasnt been a decade to have macro so ingrained into a person that its just second nature for them to do it...leaving more room for people to micro. People keep judging sc2 and saying theres little micro. I think in 3 or 4 yrs we'll be seeing insane micro...where people arent relying on 1 control group..and just use control groups to focus their camera while boxing units to keep your units contsantly spread while marching across the map. however i do agree i think alot of the ideas posed for hots were pretty bad. i think the collo as a unit has painted protos into such a tough corner that everything added to the game is more about what works with collo and not what adds to the race. No way man. To say that we just need more time so that everyone gets used to macro is also silly. I mean first of all SC2 macro is ridiculously easy compared to bw macro. I really don't think anyone can argue that, it's pretty much fact as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, I don't mind that, but it's true. Not to mention the fact that many people in SC2 come from bw, so boxer and Nada, and July, and all the other pros that didn't make it big at all in bw, all have the macro down almost perfect I'd assume. I really don't agree with the idea that they'll get better at macroing. I think they're about as good as it's going to get in that area, unless severe macro changes take place in hots, which I don't think are needed.
You going to give yourself an aneurism waiting for SC2:BW. Its not happening. SC2 it will be its beast for better or worse. They should improve the traits SC2 is specialized in instead if trying to remake whats already done and in a completely different game. Different AI system, Different Units, Different abilities, Different maps, different game. If different is automatically bad, then you will never ever like SC2.
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
also i just wanted to briefly talk about the new protoss units in HOTS, it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented as opposed to the other races, for example the viper/swarm host are good all around units which are going to work well within and vs almost any unit compo, the same can be said for the terran units to an extent.. the t/z army mixs are going to be vastly different from the ones that weve been seeing in WoL but does anyone honestly think that the protoss army compositions are going to be any different? the tempest is an extremely role oriented unit(that is extremely expensive and psi heavy aswell) which will only be made if z goes for a heavy muta composition, the oracle is a harasser and the replicant is a horrible unit design that i dont want to waste time talking about, i promise u that in a huge majority of the games p users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/collo army comps =/, our unit variety seriously sucks
I don't play Protoss, and I agree with this part.
Gateway/colossus is still going to be Protoss's main strategy. And that's really boring.
Personally I think the replicant is a fairly useless addition to high level play. It may be fun in lower leagues and team matches, but it's not going to affect high level play.
The Oracle seems poorly balanced atm.
I fear the Tempest, especially since Protoss already have the colossus to counter literally everything on the ground, but we'll see. I don't think they should remove the carrier for it.
On October 26 2011 14:16 Belial88 wrote:
No it doesn't. Burrow move banes move as slow as burrow roaches. There's a reason why burrow move roaches suck ass against robotech. 1 storm will just kill all of them trying to move past FF's. It's also hive tech, so most people agree that the baneling burrow move option is useless. It's cool, but Zerg's lategame is already strong. No one is saying Zerg lategame is a problem (at least, as in too weak).
Um, not really. The reason burrowed roaches suck against Robo is FFs (they don't wall, but they still segment, delay damage, and make you sacrifice a large chunk of your army to get under them) and Immortals. Also storm isn't robo tech. Also burrowed roaches w/ the upgrade heal right around as fast as storm can do damage. Now colossus OTOH....
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On October 26 2011 15:27 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:15 Falcor wrote:On October 26 2011 15:05 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision. Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize. there also hasnt been a decade to have macro so ingrained into a person that its just second nature for them to do it...leaving more room for people to micro. People keep judging sc2 and saying theres little micro. I think in 3 or 4 yrs we'll be seeing insane micro...where people arent relying on 1 control group..and just use control groups to focus their camera while boxing units to keep your units contsantly spread while marching across the map. however i do agree i think alot of the ideas posed for hots were pretty bad. i think the collo as a unit has painted protos into such a tough corner that everything added to the game is more about what works with collo and not what adds to the race. No way man. To say that we just need more time so that everyone gets used to macro is also silly. I mean first of all SC2 macro is ridiculously easy compared to bw macro. I really don't think anyone can argue that, it's pretty much fact as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, I don't mind that, but it's true. Not to mention the fact that many people in SC2 come from bw, so boxer and Nada, and July, and all the other pros that didn't make it big at all in bw, all have the macro down almost perfect I'd assume. I really don't agree with the idea that they'll get better at macroing. I think they're about as good as it's going to get in that area, unless severe macro changes take place in hots, which I don't think are needed.
Boxer is kinda known for his builds, micro and sloppy macro so what you're saying isn't really true.
Neither MMA nor MVP had perfect macro in the GSL finals, and those two are considered cream of the crop in SC2. Both supplyblock themselves (even in the early game) and float alot of money so the stuff about "having the macro down almost perfect" isn't true at all, seems more like you want it to be true for your argument's sake.
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I hope they really change or completely remove the replicant. It just feels so incredibly out of place. I think they should give more options for core units, kind of like how they did with Terran. Mech will be much more viable with the new hellions and warhounds. Changes like that allow for a choice between bio and mech. The replicator seems like a dumb gimmick that will either be OP as fuck or completely useless.
Still, I have hope, since they changed a lot of things before WoL came out. I'm sure they won't fuck it up badly.
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I honestly didn't read beyond the first paragraph because of how poorly this was written. I felt like I was reading a txt from my 14 year old sister the entire time. I legitimately cannot take this post seriously because it felt severely unprofessional and not serious at all. Sorry mate, that's the price you pay when you can't actually type out words completely.
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On October 26 2011 15:34 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:27 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 15:15 Falcor wrote:On October 26 2011 15:05 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:56 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:51 pzea469 wrote:On October 26 2011 14:22 Alzadar wrote:On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote:
The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game. Are you kidding? Yeah, sorry, I forgot marines could stim and kite.... Honestly that is micro, but there is very little of that in this game. You realize I could just post a video of someone splitting their workers at the beginning of each bw game and it would require more skill than that right? And it's not about speed, it's about control. I don't mean to hate on SC2, it's a great game. But it could be so much more. Now you're being silly. Every single BW pro can split his workers perfectly. How many SC2 pros have MKP's marine control, or MC's forcefield speed and precision? Both games require incredible control with speed and precision. Yeah maybe that was silly. I guess I just mean that to me the control in SC2 pales to that of BW. I know they both take skill to play, but don't find sc2 micro as impressive. It's probably just because a lot less small skirmishes happen, or because everything is so clumped. Idk, maybe i'm going off too hard. I apologize. there also hasnt been a decade to have macro so ingrained into a person that its just second nature for them to do it...leaving more room for people to micro. People keep judging sc2 and saying theres little micro. I think in 3 or 4 yrs we'll be seeing insane micro...where people arent relying on 1 control group..and just use control groups to focus their camera while boxing units to keep your units contsantly spread while marching across the map. however i do agree i think alot of the ideas posed for hots were pretty bad. i think the collo as a unit has painted protos into such a tough corner that everything added to the game is more about what works with collo and not what adds to the race. No way man. To say that we just need more time so that everyone gets used to macro is also silly. I mean first of all SC2 macro is ridiculously easy compared to bw macro. I really don't think anyone can argue that, it's pretty much fact as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, I don't mind that, but it's true. Not to mention the fact that many people in SC2 come from bw, so boxer and Nada, and July, and all the other pros that didn't make it big at all in bw, all have the macro down almost perfect I'd assume. I really don't agree with the idea that they'll get better at macroing. I think they're about as good as it's going to get in that area, unless severe macro changes take place in hots, which I don't think are needed. You going to give yourself an aneurism waiting for SC2:BW. Its not happening. SC2 it will be its beast for better or worse. They should improve the traits SC2 is specialized in instead if trying to remake whats already done and in a completely different game. Different AI system, Different Units, Different abilities, Different maps, different game. If different is automatically bad, then you will never ever like SC2.
I understand, but in what you quoted i never said anything about sc2 being worse, or that it having less macro is a bad thing. I even said that I don't think any changes in macro are needed. I simply stated the fact that bw macro was harder due to obvious reasons. But I don't think that macro being harder was a good thing.
That being said, I do have a lot of built up feelings about sc2 regarding it's comparisons to bw and, and you're right. I might as well put it to rest.
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On October 26 2011 15:25 Baha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
I don't agree with this, ff should come with at least one photon cannon so you can spot the burrowed banelings. In case the banelings wanted to go a deeper base (main), it would be easier to just drop them. The purpose of the burrowed Bling is to repel possible timings from Terran like 2 tanks and 12 marines. Right now you must have luck to do so with banelings :/
I thought Burrow Bling was hive tech? I still think one of the biggest issues with Star2 is the clumping mechanic. Makes death balls and AoE so strong
Saying "you dont have to upgrade drop" is kinda... Lol. How fast do burrow banes move? I thought they'd be the same speed as burrowed roaches. No way they'll be worth using to kill units unless it's marines or sentries early game (which can't happen since it's hive tech, no? Please correct me if I'm wrong about that)
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On October 26 2011 15:16 Ryder. wrote:
Why does everyone keep saying wait for the beta? How many units were added/removed in WoL beta? As far as I know not a single one. They changed some abilities and stats around but units as a whole weren't... Now is the best time for community to show whether or not they like the DESIGN of the new units (he isn't whining about stats but the design) and I agree with most things he said.
And lol whoever said replicant had 'lots of uses' well no shit it can change into any unit, doesn't mean we WANT to use other races units. And changing it to your own is difficult since you already need to have one of the units already anyway, yeah it will make tech switching easier but at a HUGE cost since 200/200 is more expensive than anything you can copy.
but units from the alpha were removed or were significantly different.
Phoenix used to have an ability which implodes their shield for AOE damage.
Mothership used to have an ability to stop all projectiles and vortex didn't bring back the enemy units sucked into it.
There was a tempest back in the beta which was like a capital ship like the carrier that shot melee attackers called shurikens.
Also a unit called the relic, which was more akin to the arbiter.
and the much hated soul hunters which was a zealot on surfboard that got stronger the more kills it got.
vikings were originally produced from teh factory as a ground unit that could turn to a flying unit instead of what it is now.
a unit called the cobra, which was like the diamondbacks in the campaign.
There used to be a unit called the Nomad that now turned into a raven. The nomad was a spell caster that could also build certain things and repair air units.
There are several more minor changes but these are the more major ones. For more info, you can check out this page:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12876
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EPT
