|
I'm honestly agree with the OP and to be frank, it seems to me SC2 is just going to turn out to be a casting fest.
As far as I'm concerned there isn't going to be anything fun about watching a game where you see emps, storms, units morphing into others (replcant), hooks and the cloud ability (vipers), fungals (infestors), disrupt enemy ecomony casts (oracle).
Let's all be honest here, do these abilities require micro as much as marine splits, banelings splits, marine stutter step, force fields, blink ect. Not exactly, it's really just get your unit within range and press that casting hotkey. I feel what makes this game so fun is seeing this type of micro... NOT seeing "Oh, there was an oracle who just stopped mining production whilst AT the same time we seen a storm go off!" Really, woopdy fkn doo!
I think Blizzard is heading in the wrong direction, first of they need to look at the core units of toss and figure out exactly what the problem is...yes they might be strong... but they really need to change things up from just making it a 1 A timing race (no offence inteded here). Zerg are just seem to be given all these casting abilites, as far as I'm concered it's not very zerg like. Now, finally Terran.... shall I call it Transformers instead? With other races, particularly zerg now (seeing what units zerg will be getting) ghosts will become compulsory and will be seen more of a core unit. Terran will have to EMP vipers, infestors, replicants, oracles, and snipe broods, vipers, swarm hosts.
Can you guys see what I'm getting at here, it's not exactly micro....it's just going to be a cast off session, whoevers casters get taken out first will pretty much lose. We will see zergs who can fungal, burrow, hook enemy units, cast blinding cloud, underground charge abilies whilst they can still mass up (I would like to add here that it would have been better to see the ultralisk just simply walk all over their own units such as lings and blings when they run to attack their army, it woulve looked more zerg like). We will see toss who can shapeshift, lock down enemy buildings, block mineral mining, blink, forcefield, cloak (DT's), feedback, storm and lastly we will see terran who can emp and ummmm cloak (banshees). If any of the races has stayed more true to itself then others so far, I would have to say Terran.
I probably haven't mentioned all casting abilites here, but I'm sure you get the picture. Melee is sooo much more fun to watch then a simple cast off session.
Yeah, we don't know what units are going to be OP or whatever until the beta is released... but ask yourself this question. Do you want SC2 to stay true to itself? Or would you like it to turn into a game of DOTA, just en mase? Obviously Blizzard gets the last say in this, i just hope the game dosen't turn into the latter. Yeah, a few abilites is fine, but now they are just overcrowding it with all these extra abilites.
As far as I've seen though, I really hope Starcraft doesn't turn into Spellcraft.
|
On October 26 2011 15:48 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:42 OmniscientSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 15:25 Baha wrote:On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
I don't agree with this, ff should come with at least one photon cannon so you can spot the burrowed banelings. In case the banelings wanted to go a deeper base (main), it would be easier to just drop them. The purpose of the burrowed Bling is to repel possible timings from Terran like 2 tanks and 12 marines. Right now you must have luck to do so with banelings :/ I thought Burrow Bling was hive tech? I still think one of the biggest issues with Star2 is the clumping mechanic. Makes death balls and AoE so strong Yeah, I think removing the clumping would solve quite a few problems. I even think battles would last longer. If you just increase the hitboxes of each unit, the game get's a lot deeper and more complex. At least that's what I got out of trying out that No Deathballs custom map. And marines didn't really seem too strong. Clumping on top of making AoE strong, also makes ranged DPS too effective. Marines get this because they are small and ranged, so clumping benefits terran infantry the most. If this ever happens though, I think splash would have to increase as well.
QFT my friend.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2011 16:23 Kroml. wrote:Everything has gone clear when Dustin Browder said "If you want the same game go play Brood War it is an awesome game, bu this is a different game" during Kennigit's interview. Before that, I was thinking the same way with you, but if the game maker says that they have no intentions to make this game feel like Brood War, unfortunately there is not much to say. What I mean is, SC2 was already going in the wrong direction when they start to design it at the beginning, because of their way of thinking I mentioned above... Unless there will be a company, shows up and says to starcraft fans, "Guys, we know what you want and we will create it, except it's name won't be Starcraft because of the copyright issues", or Unless the Shadow Man who specifically ordered/commanded SC2 Design team, not to have LAN support, goes says "Guys, I command you to change your direction on SC2, make it more Brood War-like, or you will be fired" all we can do is giving negative feedback and hope it works, unless you want to go "Occupy Blizzard" 
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
i promise u that in a huge majority of the games p users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/collo army comps =/,
also, about this:
In Blizzcon, they've already said that they find Protoss army comp good enough so they've tried to create units those cannot be used very effectively in this comp, that's why they made role-oriented units.
What I am trying to say is, Dynamic Duo doesn't want P users to change their army compositions anyway...they say "This comp is fine, we are not planning to change it, we are putting role-oriented units in to the game"
|
I agree 100% with TT1. I have been saying this to everyone who asks my opinion on HoTs. I didn't reply anything was op or whatever, because it is silly to say so without playing the game. The game design, is appalling.
This is Starcraft 2. We are army generals who gives instructions to our units, operate our bases. We are not here to play with cute spells. We are here to outplay our opponent, see who has better gamesense, wits, knowledge of the game, knowing timings, mutitasking, controlling our units, giving orders to your production facility, making perfect amounts of units, positioning your army, engaging your enemy, mind games.
Not Spellcasting. It ain't micro.
We are heading in the wrong direction.
Go play LoL WoW DoTa HoN or whatever you want if you like to use magic all day.
|
On October 26 2011 11:50 Gamegene wrote:
Hear hear!
Did protoss really need more gimmicky shit?
How about better base units instead of idiotic spellcasters.
E: Reavers were amazing harass units, but their role wasn't limited to simple worker kills. They had a unique (OP!) attack/ammunition and a really fucking slow movement speed which lead to awesome shuttle play in big battles AND economic harassment.
You could do so much from killing other reavers, dragoons hydras tanks, scvs drones probes, picking up your own before a scarab hit it's mark or even blow up 2 armories and win the OSL.
This. Problem with SCII and its balance seems to be that Blizzard made P to be a gimmicky race form the start.
|
tl;dr:
1) People's mechanics are still bad, as even some pros figured out
2) People, especially the foreign scene, have such a bad approach towards strategies that they don't even notice how bad it is. "Long macro game" equals being inactive until 3 bases are up, "short games" are 2base/1base all ins.
3) We should start to blame OURSELVES instead of the game, it's getting old.
----
Actual post:
....
The problem is that the general SC2 Player, and the foreign pro, often stays inactive for 20 minutes before doing ANYTHING.
Blizzard is trying hard to make YOU not only SAY that you are active, but also want you to actually BE active.
Let's face it:
There are 2 general approaches in the SC2 scene:
1)
Stay inactive for 20 minutes with some minor harrasment that makes you lose more than your opponent and then a-move your 200/200 balls into each other
2) All in off of 2 or 1 base.
People don't attack with 4 mutalisks because they don't have the micro skills to handle them,
people don't attack when they have just a minor advantage so that they could actually get more ahead whilst attacking,
people don't go for a baneling drop in the lategame even though it's most effective then, they do it like 12 minutes into the game and then complain when the 2base colossi push hits and they have no army because they spent half their resources into proper tech.
I want to quote QXC for this because he is right:
"We are still fucking bad at this game."(not his exact words but something like this).
You don't even have to get DotA-Like games into this, just look at brood war:
When do people attack?
Right when the first units are out, because they want to secure their advantage, expand and do all this stuff WHILE attacking, harrassing and killing your opponent.
I hate it how people blame it all on blizzard while the only fault is that they play the game like an idiot that does nothing but building drones and tech.
It's always annoying to see that someone with 30 roaches clearly SEES that he could at least TRY to make a move and attack but instead decides to say in his base and watch his queens gather energy(that they don't even spend because they don't cycle through them)
I think blizzards adds more gimmicky and caster-like stuff because otherwise people would never try to do anything,
people would always be inactive because they don't have the mechanics to actually do otheriwse. Thats pretty smart of blizzard.
I don't talk about specific units because nothing is clear about that, but I like the idea of adding more units that require you to be active and actually do stuff instead of just looking at your base.
God damnit guys,
it's so easy to blame the game, how about blaming yourself!?
There are SO many things that we still have to learn and the mechanics are not even NEAR where they could be, so why the F*** are you guys complaining about how bad the patching direction is?!
Note:
I'm not even saying that I'm any better, I just want to point out how bad it is to say
"Oh yea we have problems CLEARLY IT MUST BE BLIZZARD'S fault".
And yea, I DO know that there are some exceptions, but these are usually the guys dominating the scene. Go figure.
|
Um, not really. The reason burrowed roaches suck against Robo is FFs (they don't wall, but they still segment, delay damage, and make you sacrifice a large chunk of your army to get under them) and Immortals. Also storm isn't robo tech. Also burrowed roaches w/ the upgrade heal right around as fast as storm can do damage. Now colossus OTOH....
So burrowed roaches, which have much more life, and regen, suck against FF, but... you think burrowed banelings won't? Also, baneling burrow is hive tech, you'll get storm eventually, but if you don't, a single colossi works fine.
|
BW had more spell casters than sc2 does now, and some were pretty damn situational as well, how will this be any different (worse) ?
|
On October 26 2011 16:43 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:35 ThePlayer33 wrote:
I agree 100% with TT1. I have been saying this to everyone who asks my opinion on HoTs. I didn't reply anything was op or whatever, because it is silly to say so without playing the game. The game design, is appalling.
This is Starcraft 2. We are army generals who gives instructions to our units, operate our bases. We are not here to play with cute spells. We are here to outplay our opponent, see who has better gamesense, wits, knowledge of the game, knowing timings, mutitasking, controlling our units, giving orders to your production facility, making perfect amounts of units, positioning your army, engaging your enemy, mind games.
Not Spellcasting. It ain't micro.
We are heading in the wrong direction.
Go play LoL WoW DoTa HoN or whatever you want if you like to use magic all day.
The problem is that the general SC2 Player, and the foreign pro, often stays inactive for 20 minutes before doing ANYTHING. Blizzard is trying hard to make YOU not only SAY that you are active, but also want you to actually BE active. Let's face it: There are 2 general approaches in the SC2 scene: 1) Stay inactive for 20 minutes with some minor harrasment that makes you lose more than your opponent and then a-move your 200/200 balls into each other 2) All in off of 2 or 1 base. People don't attack with 4 mutalisks because they don't have the micro skills to handle them, people don't attack when they have just a minor advantage so that they could actually get more ahead whilst attacking, people don't go for a baneling drop in the lategame even though it's most effective then, they do it like 12 minutes into the game and then complain when the 2base colossi push hits and they have no army because they spent half their resources into proper tech. I want to quote QXC for this because he is right: "We are still fucking bad at this game."(not his exact words but something like this). You don't even have to get DotA-Like games into this, just look at brood war: When do people attack? Right when the first units are out, because they want to secure their advantage, expand and do all this stuff WHILE attacking, harrassing and killing your opponent. I hate it how people blame it all on blizzard while the only fault is that they play the game like an idiot that does nothing but building drones and tech. It's always annoying to see that someone with 30 roaches clearly SEES that he could at least TRY to make a move and attack but instead decides to say in his base and watch his queens gather energy(that they don't even spend because they don't cycle through them) God damnit guys, it's so easy to blame the game, how about blaming yourself!? There are SO many things that we still have to learn and the mechanics are not even NEAR where they could be, so why the F*** are you guys complaining about how bad the patching direction is?!
So you would prefer a DOTA game, just en masse?
|
On October 26 2011 11:35 Techno wrote:
Your putting words into Blizzards mouth then disagreeing with them.
EDIT: You have somewhat of a point about the Protoss units, but the game isn't out yet: maybe tempest/siege tank will be the new hotshit. And you don't consider what Protoss would do vs Terran Mech, cause I bet it aint Colossus/Gateway!
Ye its gonna be immortal gw with ghosts being copied in case any shows up
|
Most of flaws you guys bring up were there from the core.
Also it's fun to read :
- People pretending they played BW and arguing dumb shit, like both games are about the same.
- People that don't pretend but still talk about things they don't know (like comparing bling / marine to stork's reaver control)
- People that actually played both on a decent level and that bleed not seeing HOTs beeing a turnover to more competitive scaled game.
- People beeing bad at the new game and throwing nonsense around thinking they're entitled to because it's a forum.
Now I'm saying this because you got 13 pages here with the op beeing from quite a good BW / sc2 player, and it doens't spur even 1 good post out of 30. So basically if he wanted to have anything voiced and discussed, it's a waste.
What we're debating about is that the expansion looks like it's going to even players even more with new abilities / easy buttons inserted into the gameplay, that allow you to correct the game flow artificially, a supply depot drop for instance is a timelapse in the game course.
Now it's fun to hear actually this from TT1 because he was the kind of foreign hardcore player in BW I thought would win a few things around in sc2 but actually doesn't, prolly because you have now maybe better overall protoss players around, but that's beside the point.
From what I see from tournaments games and results, so far, the games revolve much more around balance and the way strats balance out against each other rather than unique and creative tactical styles (special tactics !).
Comebacks are so few and only happen in TVZ where micro and tactical play can give somewhat of an advantage for the terran, while zerg looks still all about the pattern you chose to stick to and play the slowest and safest way possible.
Sc2 balance is mostly about countering things at the right time. TT1 is right about it, they are narrowing even more the unit's roles in the gameplay while they should rather make units more potent against diverse things.
Corsairs were made to hard counter mutalisks in starcraft, but air control for instance was much more important in bw than in sc2 for many reasons. So corsair wasn't used only to wash out mutas of the map not to mention that once you add scourges to mutas the hard counter is canceled and it turns into control ability from the players.
Sc mechanics had just more complexity mainly because of the variance every unit almost was capabe of.
They need to bring in more diversity in play with their new expansion, just like they did in broodwar.
edit : oh i posted from my gf's account again -_-
edit 2 : oh and she has a mood icon an everything the hell
|
On October 26 2011 16:48 ZorBa.G wrote:
So you would prefer a DOTA game, just en masse?
Did you even read what I wrote?
No, I would just like to have players being ACTIVE in the game rather than looking at their base half of the game.
The best comparison is imho bw, it's no bash, I love SC2, I'm talking about players here.
Could you imagine flash owning nerds so hard with the way SC2 players play?
And don't say SC2 doesn't "require" such a playstyle, because I know that 99% of the people here would be overwhelmed if flash would come with 4 marines/2scvs to your base with his 2rax expand(not all in or smth), or even MVP, because I'm sure MVP is not looking at his base the whole game long as well. There ARE SC2 Players that got it and they are dominating the scene.
Imho it's all up to the players and they are not near where they could be so complaining about this is not the right approach.
Yea, I agree that Blizzard should balance the game and don't add stupid things into the game, but you are going at it from clearly the wrong perspective imho. It feels like the usual SC2 player just wants another unit he can throw into his 200/200 ball after 20 minutes.
EDIT:
All I'm saying is that, before we start to complain about the game, we should try everything to it's full extent.
|
I hope they redo protoss entirely. Buff the gateway units, move warpgate to a higher tech, get rid of colossus/tempest. They want protoss to feel like they can harass too when they give them few options with units that hardly function outside of a ball. Instead they leave us inside the ball with units that take away from the ball, rather than getting rid of it.
|
On October 26 2011 16:57 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:48 ZorBa.G wrote:
So you would prefer a DOTA game, just en masse? Did you even read what I wrote? No, I would just like to have players being ACTIVE in the game rather than looking at their base half of the game. The best comparison is imho bw, it's no bash, I love SC2, I'm talking about players here. Could you imagine flash owning nerds so hard with the way SC2 players play? And don't say SC2 doesn't "require" such a playstyle, because I know that 99% of the people here would be overwhelmed if flash would come with 4 marines/2scvs to your base with his 2rax expand(not all in or smth), or even MVP, because I'm sure MVP is not looking at his base the whole game long as well. There ARE SC2 Players that got it and they are dominating the scene. Imho it's all up to the players and they are not near where they could be so complaining about this is not the right approach. Yea, I agree that Blizzard should balance the game and don't add stupid things into the game, but you are going at it from clearly the wrong perspective imho. It feels like the usual SC2 player just wants another unit he can throw into his 200/200 ball after 20 minutes.
So then, what does this have to do with the thread? Or, are you saying the reason we are getting "Spellcraft" is becuase people camp in their bases? I'm not arguing with you upoun the fact if people camp in their bases or not. I'm arguing the fact that I don't think Starcraft should be heading into the Spellcraft direction.
|
The replicant will just be a deathball unit, don't kid yourself. I think it's an interesting design and in the right hands could have a lot of fun applications, but I don't think protoss as a race is ready for it. Since as we all know, you're just going to make replicants so you can transform into a raven to make your colossi impossible to attack for vikings. There are infinite ways to abuse this sort of thing and now you can't make ravens against protoss anymore at all or you'll have to nerf colossi somehow, i.e. the unit's a bad idea.
|
Artosis was surprisingly positive about the new units on tonight's stog. I must admit he changed my mind on some things. I would recommend watching it. I also think this post is way too early. Protoss has 3 casters now. In BW protoss had 3 casters. The Dark Archon, HT, and Arbiter. I don't see the difference in having a sentry, HT and oracle.
If someone without as much weight as TT1 made this post it would probably be in jeopardy of being closed for all the whine and "this is how I think sc2 should be"
|
On October 26 2011 17:08 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:57 KeksX wrote:On October 26 2011 16:48 ZorBa.G wrote:
So you would prefer a DOTA game, just en masse? Did you even read what I wrote? No, I would just like to have players being ACTIVE in the game rather than looking at their base half of the game. The best comparison is imho bw, it's no bash, I love SC2, I'm talking about players here. Could you imagine flash owning nerds so hard with the way SC2 players play? And don't say SC2 doesn't "require" such a playstyle, because I know that 99% of the people here would be overwhelmed if flash would come with 4 marines/2scvs to your base with his 2rax expand(not all in or smth), or even MVP, because I'm sure MVP is not looking at his base the whole game long as well. There ARE SC2 Players that got it and they are dominating the scene. Imho it's all up to the players and they are not near where they could be so complaining about this is not the right approach. Yea, I agree that Blizzard should balance the game and don't add stupid things into the game, but you are going at it from clearly the wrong perspective imho. It feels like the usual SC2 player just wants another unit he can throw into his 200/200 ball after 20 minutes. So then, what does this have to do with the thread? Or, are you saying the reason we are getting "Spellcraft" is becuase people camp in their bases? I'm not arguing with you upoun the fact if people camp in their bases or not. I'm arguing the fact that I don't think Starcraft should be heading into the Spellcraft direction.
Yes, in a way this is right.
We are getting units that require you to DO stuff to be efficient so that people actually start doing it.
Much like the warp prism:
It was good before it got buffed but people didn't use it before blizzard raised their shield's hp.
It was an educational buff.
I'm not saying blizzard is basing their whole expansion around this but the fact that these units require you to be more active in the game has the same effect, and before we start to complain about that being bad we should "practice" WoL in a way that we can actually judge whether or not it is good enough because I think we aren't even using WoL units to their full potential. But this is not blizzard's fault but ours(hence the points about players having a bad playstyle). If we did reach the point where there is such a great usage of everything and then blizzard does something like this and we think it's bad it's a totally different story, but at this point this is not the case. We have to consider that, I don't think it doesn't belong into this topic.
I'm not indicating that "It's clear that the unis in HotS will be good" or something like that, I'm talking about the approach that blizzard has about adding more stuff into it so people actually do more stuff as well.
And please don't call it spellcraft just because it sounds nice, I mean brood war has many "spellcasters" or units with abilities as well, so...
|
I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not saying Brood War is a spellfest too. Made the list so ppl who didn't play BW could picture it.
Brood War Energy Based Abilities:
Terran:
-ComSat Scan
-Medic Healing
-Medic Optical Flare
-Medic Restoration
-Ghost Cloak
-Ghost Lockdown
-Science Vessel Defensive Matrix
-Science Vessel Irridiate
-Wraith Cloak
-Battlecruiser Yamato Gun
Zerg:
-Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell)
-Queen Spawn Broodling
-Queen Ensnare
-Queen Parasite
-Defiler Dark Swarm
-Defiler Plague
-Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss:
-High Templar Psionic Storm
-High Templar Hallucination
-Arbiter Recall
-Arbiter Statis Field
-Dark Archon Mind Control
-Dark Archon Feedback
-Dark Archon Maelstrom
-Corsair Disruption Web
|
On October 26 2011 16:01 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 15:53 MooMooMugi wrote:
The thing is they didnt introduce the replicant to counter the 1/1/1, everything they added to HOTS did had a specific purpose, the replicant's was to introduce more diverse strategies. Are other races really okay with the Replicant....it's going to cause so many problems. Look Protoss in general just don't think it's good for gameplay. A lot of potential abuse, that Zerg and Terran shouldn't look forward to. Replicant, and Viper death-grip need to go.
Doubt its going to cause a huge problem because of its cost, 200/200 4 supply for each unit copied? This will only apply to late game and there are only a few units from the other races that are WORTH the supply/cost to copy such as the ghost, infestor, siege tank.
|
biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
