I don't really like replicant, and yeah it feels weird that the Tempest seems to be designed around dealing with on specific unit only. But beyond that ...
1. Please stop the "OMG Blizzard is dumbing down the game to make it easier to play, so that they can get money from noobies and it will ruin competition". That's the same kind of nonsense BW ayatollah were throwing at WoL during beta, and they were proven wrong. Bowder's team brought WoL to the state it's in (i.e : a game able to support a growth rarelly experienced during ESport's history), there is like NO reason not to carry on trusting them.
2. Dustin Bowder clearly said in TL Interview that all that was presented during Blizzcon was still subject to testing, could go out, change, etc. So there is really no point arguing like it's in the game tomorrow. Thus most of the OP and of the responses are really pointless.
3. Althought feedback on the new units was asked for by Blizzard (which is why they relased all that non final stuff), there is a line between usefull feedbacks and clueless complaints. i think it was crossed there.
On October 26 2011 17:13 Kroml. wrote: I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not advocating SC2, yes I like BW more but BW also has it's spells
Zerg: -Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell) -Queen Spawn Broodling -Queen Ensnare -Queen Parasite -Defiler Dark Swarm -Defiler Plague -Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss: -High Templar Psionic Storm -High Templar Hallucination -Arbiter Recall -Arbiter Statis Field -Dark Archon Mind Control -Dark Archon Feedback -Dark Archon Maelstrom -Corsair Disruption Web
That's not much at all to be honest.How about showing us the HotS spells?
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking
We don't need pathing changes, we need collision box changes so that ground units just don't stand on top of each other.
I don't claim to know how hard this is in a 3d game like sc2, but it was pretty easy to change when i used to mess around with mugen.
Sc2 is a game of blizzard and they are allowed to do anything with it, but what they aim for is copies sold.
If there are 100 users in TL who say that replicant dosnt belong in sc, but they still all buy HotS, it means that the replicant was not a mistake in game desing. They could not care less if you are happy or not with the game you buy, aslong as you buy. That is why we lack certain features.
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking
We don't need pathing changes, we need collision box changes so that ground units just don't stand on top of each other.
I don't claim to know how hard this is in a 3d game like sc2, but it was pretty easy to change when i used to mess around with mugen.
Doing the change is easy. Evaluating its consequences / side effects is far more difficult. Looks like it would invalidate every existing map for example ( every ramp/ size would be off).
On October 26 2011 17:13 Kroml. wrote: I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not advocating SC2, yes I like BW more but BW also has it's spells
Zerg: -Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell) -Queen Spawn Broodling -Queen Ensnare -Queen Parasite -Defiler Dark Swarm -Defiler Plague -Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss: -High Templar Psionic Storm -High Templar Hallucination -Arbiter Recall -Arbiter Statis Field -Dark Archon Mind Control -Dark Archon Feedback -Dark Archon Maelstrom -Corsair Disruption Web
That's not much at all to be honest.How about showing us the HotS spells?
Not to mention half of those bw spells are strictly situational, or really really rare/specific strategy use (optic flare).
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking
We don't need pathing changes, we need collision box changes so that ground units just don't stand on top of each other.
I don't claim to know how hard this is in a 3d game like sc2, but it was pretty easy to change when i used to mess around with mugen.
Doing the change is easy. Evaluating its consequences / side effects is far more difficult. Looks like it would invalidate every existing map for example ( every ramp/ size would be off).
I assume it is possible to code a collision box that ignores buildings and terrain but only interacts with other units? Thats just a hunch though.
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking
We don't need pathing changes, we need collision box changes so that ground units just don't stand on top of each other.
I don't claim to know how hard this is in a 3d game like sc2, but it was pretty easy to change when i used to mess around with mugen.
Doing the change is easy. Evaluating its consequences / side effects is far more difficult. Looks like it would invalidate every existing map for example ( every ramp/ size would be off).
I assume it is possible to code a collision box that ignores buildings and terrain but only interacts with other units? Thats just a hunch though.
Probably, but at this stage of the development (i.e : game released, etc.) this is like a huge huge change, and thus bears huge huge risks.
I am honestly unimpressed with all of the hots reveals. I'm sure blinding cloud will be good but when I look at the swarm host I just keep thinking the lurker would be better in almost everysingle way.
1 question about the tempest though isn't that unit good against anything in the air? My concern is lategame colossus, how am I going to ever kill those things with corruptors now if there are tempest around. Its going to be like a better voidray colossus combo.
On October 26 2011 15:16 Ryder. wrote: Why does everyone keep saying wait for the beta? How many units were added/removed in WoL beta? As far as I know not a single one. They changed some abilities and stats around but units as a whole weren't... Now is the best time for community to show whether or not they like the DESIGN of the new units (he isn't whining about stats but the design) and I agree with most things he said.
And lol whoever said replicant had 'lots of uses' well no shit it can change into any unit, doesn't mean we WANT to use other races units. And changing it to your own is difficult since you already need to have one of the units already anyway, yeah it will make tech switching easier but at a HUGE cost since 200/200 is more expensive than anything you can copy.
Yes, Blizzard is unlikely to remove units that make it to beta. But the point that they are generally making is that beta is when we know what we'll be getting.
Granted, as something of a historian of SC2's development, I can tell you right now that between mid-2008 and beta, exactly one unit was cut: the Lurker. Units were shuffled around, Hydras and Roaches traded tiers weekly, etc. But only the Lurker was cut in a 2-years span.
In general, if Blizzard shows a unit, they plan to ship with it.
That being said, I find the main problem with the units to be cost, not their abilities. Vipers are damn expensive if you just want mobile detection. Tempests seem to cost far too much for something that does so little damage.
Also, the Replicant is not more expensive than the Viper (in terms of gas).
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
I don't agree with this, ff should come with at least one photon cannon so you can spot the burrowed banelings. In case the banelings wanted to go a deeper base (main), it would be easier to just drop them.
The purpose of the burrowed Bling is to repel possible timings from Terran like 2 tanks and 12 marines. Right now you must have luck to do so with banelings :/
I thought Burrow Bling was hive tech? I still think one of the biggest issues with Star2 is the clumping mechanic. Makes death balls and AoE so strong
Yeah, I think removing the clumping would solve quite a few problems. I even think battles would last longer. If you just increase the hitboxes of each unit, the game get's a lot deeper and more complex. At least that's what I got out of trying out that No Deathballs custom map. And marines didn't really seem too strong. Clumping on top of making AoE strong, also makes ranged DPS too effective. Marines get this because they are small and ranged, so clumping benefits terran infantry the most. If this ever happens though, I think splash would have to increase as well.
This has been discussed to death and it's just not going to happen. Also you seem to argue from the point that the marine IS overpowered which is highly debatable, especially considering that there will be new units/abilities that probably will do very well against them in HotS.
this is the marine from a protoss' point of view
do i have AoE yes - i win the battle no - everything i have dies, no chance
that ofc isnt factoring in emp/vikings to deal with the AoE i would have, the marine isnt OP but the fact that you are REQUIRED to get AoE to deal with it because of the clumping is just bs
But that's how it's always been for the Protoss in TvP. In SC1, you didn't see Marines because Protoss could pull out Reavers, which would murder Marines by the dozen. That's why Terrans go Mech in TvP; they didn't really have a choice.
In SC2, Immortals basically turn Mech into insta-lose. But since Colossi aren't anywhere near as potent as Reavers, and since Terrans have Marauders now, Bio can actually win. But in all cases, Marines die to AoE. It's their crippling weakness, and what keeps Marines from being OP.
Not Spellcasting. It ain't micro.
Spellcasting isn't micro. Really? That's what you're going with?
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking
We don't need pathing changes, we need collision box changes so that ground units just don't stand on top of each other.
I don't claim to know how hard this is in a 3d game like sc2, but it was pretty easy to change when i used to mess around with mugen.
Doing the change is easy. Evaluating its consequences / side effects is far more difficult. Looks like it would invalidate every existing map for example ( every ramp/ size would be off).
I assume it is possible to code a collision box that ignores buildings and terrain but only interacts with other units? Thats just a hunch though.
If the only way to make an RTS good is to either code deliberately broken AI routines or add hacks like having the unit collision radius be different from the terrain collision radius, then RTS gameplay is fundamentally broken.
And since I don't believe that RTS gameplay is fundamentally broken, then it therefore stands to reason that the best way to make an RTS good is not necessarily to do either of those things.
On October 26 2011 17:13 Kroml. wrote: I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not advocating SC2, yes I like BW more but BW also has it's spells
Zerg: -Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell) -Queen Spawn Broodling -Queen Ensnare -Queen Parasite -Defiler Dark Swarm -Defiler Plague -Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss: -High Templar Psionic Storm -High Templar Hallucination -Arbiter Recall -Arbiter Statis Field -Dark Archon Mind Control -Dark Archon Feedback -Dark Archon Maelstrom -Corsair Disruption Web
That's not much at all to be honest.How about showing us the HotS spells?
BW Protoss Recall Stasis Field Disruption Web Feedback Mind Control Maelstrom Psionic Storm Hallucination
total 8
Edit: about RTS gameplay. Some RTS engines just automatically spread out units into a formation when they reach a waypoint instead of packing as tightly together like in SC2. Does that mean its broken? The way they solve the problem of unit clumping doesn't really matter the point is that "death balls" are ugly to look at in most peoples opinion. I doubt blizzard will do anything about it but there is still legacy of the void right?
On October 26 2011 17:13 Kroml. wrote: I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not advocating SC2, yes I like BW more but BW also has it's spells
Zerg: -Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell) -Queen Spawn Broodling -Queen Ensnare -Queen Parasite -Defiler Dark Swarm -Defiler Plague -Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss: -High Templar Psionic Storm -High Templar Hallucination -Arbiter Recall -Arbiter Statis Field -Dark Archon Mind Control -Dark Archon Feedback -Dark Archon Maelstrom -Corsair Disruption Web
That's not much at all to be honest.How about showing us the HotS spells?
BW Protoss Recall Stasis Field Disruption Web Feedback Mind Control Maelstrom Psionic Storm Hallucination
total 8
Well as you can see they are not only more but we use more than half of them every game we play.Whilst BW spells were very situational and depending on composition.I'm pretty sure that Mind Control and Hallucination were not used almost at all.Look at the HotS spells.In WoL we use Chrono Boost,Forcefield,Feedback,Psionic Storm and Hallucination every game we play and if we go phoenix we use Graviton Beam instead of Psi-storm.
Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up.
It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game.
On October 26 2011 17:13 Kroml. wrote: I've made a list of energy based abilities in Brood War, I am not advocating SC2, yes I like BW more but BW also has it's spells
Zerg: -Queen Infestation (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and is a spell) -Queen Spawn Broodling -Queen Ensnare -Queen Parasite -Defiler Dark Swarm -Defiler Plague -Defiler Consume (Not a pure energy based ability, but from a spellcaster, and directly affects energy)
Protoss: -High Templar Psionic Storm -High Templar Hallucination -Arbiter Recall -Arbiter Statis Field -Dark Archon Mind Control -Dark Archon Feedback -Dark Archon Maelstrom -Corsair Disruption Web
That's not much at all to be honest.How about showing us the HotS spells?
BW Protoss Recall Stasis Field Disruption Web Feedback Mind Control Maelstrom Psionic Storm Hallucination
total 8
Well as you can see they are not only more but we use more than half of them every game we play.Whilst BW spells were very situational and depending on composition.I'm pretty sure that Mind Control and Hallucination were not used almost at all.Look at the HotS spells.In WoL we use Chrono Boost,Forcefield,Feedback,Psionic Storm and Hallucination every game we play and if we go phoenix we use Graviton Beam instead of Psi-storm.
It was also hard as hell to cast spells in broodwar. The SC2 engine makes casting spells a thousand times easier which makes it easier to include more spells. (not saying if that is good or bad)
There are people who think SC2 is good enough as it is, and has done well.
They are people who weren't around for most of pro BW. For anyone who has been around then, the only reasonable reaction is that SC2 has been a failure. It has not taken off in Korea. It has not spawned successful leagues worldwide past GSL. It has a lower viewership than LoL!
To be honest, if anyone has inside information, I can only expect Blizzard themselves to be disappointed. They built the entire business model around leeching off of tournaments, but other than the GSL, none have been able to stand on its own feet.
When DOTA2 comes around it's going to gobble up a ton of mindshare, viewers, and players. It's a better game at the top-end (more faithful to the original), and more accessible to casuals.
The thing is that there's nothing to say about SC2. No decent player is going to go up to their friends and be like, man this game has amazing gameplay - because it doesn't. It's worse than BW, there's no way to go around that.
The only lesson that should be taken away is that it's a bad idea to intentionally make a poor product.
On October 26 2011 17:50 architecture wrote: There are people who think SC2 is good enough as it is, and has done well.
They are people who weren't around for most of pro BW. For anyone who has been around then, the only reasonable reaction is that SC2 has been a failure. It has not taken off in Korea. It has not spawned successful leagues worldwide past GSL. It has a lower viewership than LoL!
To be honest, if anyone has inside information, I can only expect Blizzard themselves to be disappointed. They built the entire business model around leeching off of tournaments, but other than the GSL, none have been able to stand on its own feet.
When DOTA2 comes around it's going to gobble up a ton of mindshare, viewers, and players. It's a better game at the top-end (more faithful to the original), and more accessible to casuals.
The thing is that there's nothing to say about SC2. No decent player is going to go up to their friends and be like, man this game has amazing gameplay - because it doesn't. It's worse than BW, there's no way to go around that.
The only lesson that should be taken away is that it's a bad idea to intentionally make a poor product.
why are you comparing 2 games of different genres with each other? not to mention that dota requires very little individual skill to play post 6.48~ when almost every build was figured out and posted on the website.
On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote: Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up.
It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game.
Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it.
On October 26 2011 14:18 pzea469 wrote: The game isn't even in beta. That being said though, I fully agree. But not because of what the HOTS units look like. The game has no micro period, and also doesn't have a much flexibility to be creative. So maybe in SC2, such changes are actually required. Since a lot of flexibility and freedom is gone, perhaps adding units that specifically solve a problem is the way to go for SC2. I really don't know though. It's a completely different game than bw unfortunately. It's its own game.
Are you kidding?
terran buildings have about the same micro in bw ;
On October 26 2011 17:50 architecture wrote: There are people who think SC2 is good enough as it is, and has done well.
They are people who weren't around for most of pro BW. For anyone who has been around then, the only reasonable reaction is that SC2 has been a failure. It has not taken off in Korea. It has not spawned successful leagues worldwide past GSL. It has a lower viewership than LoL!
To be honest, if anyone has inside information, I can only expect Blizzard themselves to be disappointed. They built the entire business model around leeching off of tournaments, but other than the GSL, none have been able to stand on its own feet.
When DOTA2 comes around it's going to gobble up a ton of mindshare, viewers, and players. It's a better game at the top-end (more faithful to the original), and more accessible to casuals.
The thing is that there's nothing to say about SC2. No decent player is going to go up to their friends and be like, man this game has amazing gameplay - because it doesn't. It's worse than BW, there's no way to go around that.
The only lesson that should be taken away is that it's a bad idea to intentionally make a poor product.
why are you comparing 2 games of different genres with each other? not to mention that dota requires very little individual skill to play post 6.48~ when almost every build was figured out and posted on the website.
I think what he's saying is that since SC2 was made so noob friendly for casuals, it's going to lose the casuals soon too because many casuals are just going to jump boat to the next game. The next game being Dota 2. I think it's a fair opinion, but I don't fully agree with it. Blizzard was smart to separate the expansions. That guarantees success for SC2 as long as the next expansion is still on its way. I find that horrible, but yeah. SC2 will probably suffer because of Dota 2, however I don't think it will be THAT bad. Especially once hots comes out.
EPT
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