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These are just ideas for hots, we might not even see them in beta in the future.
finger crossed.
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On October 26 2011 18:26 Zelniq wrote:
yeah I think they kind of have the right idea with not wanting to add more units to the deathball, except they didn't address the current death ball..why is the colossus not changed? it's like the worst designed unit in the game and practically forces games to go to giant ball armies clashing, due to their high mobility /strength.
the way they splash also basically eliminates the point of trying to micro, it just melts everything too strongly with the perpendicular line of attack..trying to split is pointless. why couldnt they make it like the lurker where it starts from the foot of the colossus and shoots out in a line, encouraging players to fan units out/dodge the beams?
I feel like the only reason they have the colossus in the game and haven't removed it..is because it looks cool. And they think maybe that's what the majority of their customers care about.
I agree with you 100%. 3 things I was hoping for Hots is to fix Colossi, hydra and ultras. I got 1 and a half of those (I don't agree with their version of hydra fix although anything is better then nothing)
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i kinda agree with tt1 here
i like the way hots is heading for terran (tvp mech?) and zerg (both viper and swarm hosts are good units that will change zerg gameplay a lot)
for the protoss though, tempest looks ok as does the oracle. both of these units we will see a lot, especially the oracle will be very good for shutting early upgrades and eco harass. the replicant is a bad unit idea i hope they will cut it. but the thing is these unit won't change the way protoss plays out - collosus with support units ball.
the only thing that might change this is the recall, which will allow protoss to be in more little skirmishes are harass not worrying about losing their units, which is just a try to patch their bad game design, that protoss is built around the collosus (because it was apparently another "cool" unit thats just A move)
(ps. hero thor? come on t_t)
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On October 26 2011 18:16 Shewklad wrote:Show nested quote +the beauty of sc1 was that the game revolved moslty around melee(or attacking units) while having a few spellcasters as the supporting unit Brood War is still an existing game. You are free to go play it whenever you feel like. But I'm pretty sure you switched either cause you think this is the better game or cause you weren't good enough in BW.
You do realize the entire SC2 scene is made up of 90% of people who weren't good enough at BW.
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On October 26 2011 18:23 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:
Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up.
It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. News flash : game design is a real, hard, qualified job. The fact that random people or pro gamer thinks they can do better that industry veteran like Bowder is as real as saying that Bowder could kick their ass in a Bo3. Give TT1 or any smart ass in that thread saying HoTS unit design are "obviously flawed" a millions buck budget, and a team to design the ideal SC2, and you 100% know what you get : a shitty product and tons of wasted money. So i suggest to take your stupid elitism where it belong : in the end game chat , complaining about balance after having your bottom wiped by some GM that plays better than you. Let pro gamer play the game, and make meaningfull constructive feedbacks if they whish, but don't go ahead and bombard them game designers, they are not.
News flash: Your reading skills are lacking, go back to school. If you can't decipher a few simple paragraphs and make some sense of it, don't bother posting.
The point obviously flew over your head. No one is bashing Blizzard's ability to technically create a game. They have created some of the best games on PC. The criticism here is that their idea and the design of the new units are cringe worthy, hence "flawed."
And lol @ the elitism. I'd rather read an elitist pro player's opinion rather than the opinion of a player that has no idea what they're talking about.
I'm not even going to get started on your rant about losing to GM players.
It's about 11:30am in France, stay in school man.
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
i promise u that in a huge majority of the games p users are still gonna stick to their gate unit/collo army comps =/, our unit variety seriously sucks
blizzard said at blizzcon they didnt want to add units in HotS that could get along with ur already OP deathball (as well as terran's ball), thats why they're adding role units and/or spell casters. Its useless to theorycraft even before the beta started, every units shown at blizzcon wont make it through.
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On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol.
Yeah! pro-players opinions have divine messages embedded. They are 100 000 times worth mine.
Even if I agree with you, that they may have a better understanding of the game, along with their 100 000 more hours of practice, this kind of argumentation is the worst.
Since I am a Ph.D student znd since most of pro-players have stopped their studies after high-school, I am then 100 000 smarter that them. So I don't need the 100 000 more hours to grasp the game. So my opinions are all mighty.
Do you see WTF here ?
For the record, I don't believe that any indicator like studies or performance in a tournament is a good indicator for knowing if a person will be able to introspect the game. It's like saying that successful people in life have understood it and that we shall all follow their lead and try to be MrDuck.
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On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol.
a fringe progamer getting on a high horse about balance is hardly worth anything to be honest. And any current player is going to be hopelessly biased towards their own race anyways. Tonight's State of the Game was a great opportunity to hear educated, high-level starcraft minds discuss the new additions. And it was hardly an OMG END OF THE WORLD consensus that so many people here want to believe it is. Listening to Artosis and Tyler discuss the new units in the context of how they add complexity and reward skill and strategic thinking means a billion times more than listening to TT1 ramble about how muta harass is somehow dead and the world of SC2 will be forever ruined.
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On October 26 2011 18:32 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. Yeah! pro-players opinions have divine messages embedded. They are 100 000 times worth mine. Even if I agree with you, that they may have a better understanding of the game, along with their 100 000 more hours of practice, this kind of argumentation is the worst. Since I am a Ph.D student znd since most of pro-players have stopped their studies after high-school, I am then 100 000 smarter that them. So I don't need the 100 000 more hours to grasp the game. So my opinions are all mighty. Do you see WTF here ? For the record, I don't believe that any indicator like studies or performance in a tournament is a good indicator for knowing if a person will be able to introspect the game. It's like saying that successful people in life have understood it and that we shall all follow their lead and try to be MrDuck.
... What in the fuck am I reading?
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On October 26 2011 18:35 Carryz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:32 Merlimoo wrote:On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. Yeah! pro-players opinions have divine messages embedded. They are 100 000 times worth mine. Even if I agree with you, that they may have a better understanding of the game, along with their 100 000 more hours of practice, this kind of argumentation is the worst. Since I am a Ph.D student znd since most of pro-players have stopped their studies after high-school, I am then 100 000 smarter that them. So I don't need the 100 000 more hours to grasp the game. So my opinions are all mighty. Do you see WTF here ? For the record, I don't believe that any indicator like studies or performance in a tournament is a good indicator for knowing if a person will be able to introspect the game. It's like saying that successful people in life have understood it and that we shall all follow their lead and try to be MrDuck. ... What in the fuck am I reading?
The same argumentation as yours... an horse shit!
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On October 26 2011 18:31 Carryz wrote:
The point obviously flew over your head. No one is bashing Blizzard's ability to technically create a game.
Game design is not about technically creating a game. That's programming.
Game design is creating the rules of a game. I don't see any reason why a progamer is automatically qualified to do that, or criticize it.
What a progamer is qualified to do is test a game to the limit, because they play it at a high enough level to find more flaws and imblances than others.
But this ability is the result of thousands of hours of practice. That means they can't magically determine how a proposed unit will function in an entirely new metagame.
People aren't arguing with TT1 here because they think they have a better idea of what will happen in HotS. They're arguing because he's making baseless assumptions about what will happen in HotS. It's too early to tell, and that's what beta and play testing is for.
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On October 26 2011 18:34 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. a fringe progamer getting on a high horse about balance is hardly worth anything to be honest. And any current player is going to be hopelessly biased towards their own race anyways. Tonight's State of the Game was a great opportunity to hear educated, high-level starcraft minds discuss the new additions. And it was hardly an OMG END OF THE WORLD consensus that so many people here want to believe it is. Listening to Artosis and Tyler discuss the new units in the context of how they add complexity and reward skill and strategic thinking means a billion times more than listening to TT1 ramble about how muta harass is somehow dead and the world of SC2 will be forever ruined.
Ok, just one thing.
HOW ON EARTH is TT1 as a "fringe" progamers opinion less worth than Tyler's (dunno why he even is a SC2 progamer, for sure not because of results) and Artosis (isn't progamer but basically makes money from hyping up SC2 and therefore is probably the most biased person to talk about SC2 ever...) say?
Because theire positive while earning money on a damn SC2-MLG-Hype podcast? ... ...
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On October 26 2011 18:31 Carryz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:23 Kerm wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:
Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up.
It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. News flash : game design is a real, hard, qualified job. The fact that random people or pro gamer thinks they can do better that industry veteran like Bowder is as real as saying that Bowder could kick their ass in a Bo3. Give TT1 or any smart ass in that thread saying HoTS unit design are "obviously flawed" a millions buck budget, and a team to design the ideal SC2, and you 100% know what you get : a shitty product and tons of wasted money. So i suggest to take your stupid elitism where it belong : in the end game chat , complaining about balance after having your bottom wiped by some GM that plays better than you. Let pro gamer play the game, and make meaningfull constructive feedbacks if they whish, but don't go ahead and bombard them game designers, they are not. News flash: Your reading skills are lacking, go back to school. If you can't decipher a few simple paragraphs and make some sense of it, don't bother posting. The point obviously flew over your head. No one is bashing Blizzard's ability to technically create a game. They have created some of the best games on PC. The criticism here is that their idea and the design of the new units are cringe worthy, hence "flawed." And lol @ the elitism. I'd rather read an elitist pro player's opinion rather than the opinion of a player that has no idea what they're talking about. I'm not even going to get started on your rant about losing to GM players. It's about 11:30am in France, stay in school man.
So, care to explain the cringe worthiness of the new unit designs? I think a lot of people dont see it. Enlighten us.
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The amount of overreaction to this reveal in general is astonishing. Complain when something is actually in the game and is looking like it's actually bad for the game, not about a unit they said themselves they're not at all sure about (replicant) and has every chance of being cut. Or abilities (eg arc shield) that haven't been balanced at all, yet you jump to conclusions about muta harass dying etc.
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On October 26 2011 18:28 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:25 gwaihir wrote:
its so ridiculous how people act towards the upcoming expansion...i mean, i understand some of your concerns BUT...blizzard said 100 times that they will TRY it out....there will be a beta and they said its possible some stuff wont make it in OR getting reworked before getting in.
people act like its already 100% certain....so plz stop the whine and wait for the beta, and even more important wait for the release where you see whats coming in for sure! even if yyour name is TT1 and i admire you, plz stop this whining and panicing!!!!! When you have to look at the units they have shown in the previews it's hard to just "wait for it" whiteout becoming an extremly negative person. Add into this that they say they don't want to make Deathballs stronger BUT at the same time add in stuff that basically only exists to disrupt harassing (Shredder, Protoss-Cannon-Thing)... It just makes absolutely no sense..
the toss cannon-like ability is not going to massively nerf harassment, its more of an early game utility spell that strengthens the very, very weak and sentry-reliant toss early game. 1 marauder renders infinity energy of that spell useless. adding a powerful harass tool like the oracle nerfs deathball play in that it uses up supply that would be added to that ball. the recall spell(assuming it gets balanced) allows toss to split of parts of their army, a terrifying notion for current toss players. the zerg seige unit weakens deathball play. burrowmove banes weaken deathball play. new zerg spell weakens deathball play. terran being quietly guided towards mech weakens deathball play.
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the heated discussion about HotS got to stop. The units that were revealed and the other alterations are pre-beta suggestions. Another thing to note is that in their design process the new units are intentionally OP to see how they are used in the game because the developers wants to know how they are used. From there on they nerf the units to balance them with regards to damage, speed, abilities and cost. Another thing that was made clear is they would rather have feedback know in the early stages rather than during the beta when most units are rooted in the game. This means that the feedback they received meant that they could remove some of the units completely or modify them heavily.
TLDR: Keep your heads cool, HotS is in pre-beta perhaps even in the alpha stage.
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On October 26 2011 18:34 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. a fringe progamer getting on a high horse about balance is hardly worth anything to be honest. And any current player is going to be hopelessly biased towards their own race anyways. Tonight's State of the Game was a great opportunity to hear educated, high-level starcraft minds discuss the new additions. And it was hardly an OMG END OF THE WORLD consensus that so many people here want to believe it is. Listening to Artosis and Tyler discuss the new units in the context of how they add complexity and reward skill and strategic thinking means a billion times more than listening to TT1 ramble about how muta harass is somehow dead and the world of SC2 will be forever ruined.
In regards to your earlier post, my point is that Blizzard is running out of ideas that actually make sense. Instead of coming up with something original or rather something that isn't completely out of the elements of SC2, they're reusing ideas from their OWN game. I'm aware that these abilities aren't original, it's the fact that they're using reusing abilities from a dying game.
With WoL out for a while now, it's a lot easier to tell how a few new spells are going to affect SC2. Of course no one knew what was going on coming into WoL and every new unit/balance being potentially out of control. But this is an expansion pack, not a completely new game.
Artosis has become one of the spokesperson for SC2. It wouldn't go over very well if he came out and said everything is fucking terrible. That would drive the community wild and Blizzard wouldn't be very happy with that.
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On October 26 2011 18:37 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:31 Carryz wrote:
The point obviously flew over your head. No one is bashing Blizzard's ability to technically create a game. Game design is not about technically creating a game. That's programming. Game design is creating the rules of a game. I don't see any reason why a progamer is automatically qualified to do that, or criticize it. What a progamer is qualified to do is test a game to the limit, because they play it at a high enough level to find more flaws and imblances than others. But this ability is the result of thousands of hours of practice. That means they can't magically determine how a proposed unit will function in an entirely new metagame. People aren't arguing with TT1 here because they think they have a better idea of what will happen in HotS. They're arguing because he's making baseless assumptions about what will happen in HotS. It's too early to tell, and that's what beta and play testing is for.
Ahh that is the most valuable post I have seen here. That is basically what I wanted to say before I got caught by an urge to laugh at a mysterious elitist man who have no clue about what he says.
Thanks.
What I want to add is that very few people are able to foresee (with errors) what a small change will lead to. Even DK says that they didn't know, but wanted to try theses things out. Because they only have an idea about what they wanted to do with it.
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On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC
Have to agree - a personal opinion of course, but Blizz _have_ been asking for feedback (maybe they read TL!). Replicant just feels like such a bad unit regardless of its utility within the game. A real cop-out fix-me-up for the race. I guess game balance is more important than the way the game `feels', but this is pushing pretty hard on that trade-off for me.
Regardless of balance questions, it really feels like protoss got the short end of the stick. Oh well, I'll be interested to see how the oracle pans out (sceptical btw).
PS Think the collo sucks as well! :p
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People really need to stop theorycrafting based on pretty much nothing, and assuming that everything we see will make it into the game.
There is a long time until HotS, and none of us have any idea what will make it into the game and what wont. And none of us has any idea how the different units will behave or fit into the "metagame" - not even the pros.
It's fine to talk about it and discuss how the different units could be used. But these doomsday threads where people make their own assumptions and then concludes something based on their own imagination. Maybe people should calm down and discuss how each unit should be designed instead of stubbornly just saying "THIS IS OP!!" when they really have no clue whatsoever.
We will have a beta, then people can truly test each unit. I do not understand how people will know what is going to be OP/UP or wont fit in the game based on a 20sec clip and a description of the unit.
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