EPTSC2 is heading in the wrong direction - Page 15
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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Akhee
Brazil811 Posts
On October 26 2011 15:37 fant0m wrote: I don't play Protoss, and I agree with this part. Gateway/colossus is still going to be Protoss's main strategy. And that's really boring. Personally I think the replicant is a fairly useless addition to high level play. It may be fun in lower leagues and team matches, but it's not going to affect high level play. The Oracle seems poorly balanced atm. I fear the Tempest, especially since Protoss already have the colossus to counter literally everything on the ground, but we'll see. I don't think they should remove the carrier for it. Um, not really. The reason burrowed roaches suck against Robo is FFs (they don't wall, but they still segment, delay damage, and make you sacrifice a large chunk of your army to get under them) and Immortals. Also storm isn't robo tech. Also burrowed roaches w/ the upgrade heal right around as fast as storm can do damage. Now colossus OTOH.... totally agree, nice post | ||
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iamlafore
Japan40 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
Dustin should gtfo back to his C&C. seriously, look at the design concept behind all of these new units. | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
one thing this expansion is going to do is massively widen the gap between the most skilled and lesser skilled players. whether or not you are a fan of spells and their respective casters, they take far more skill and far more strategy than mindlessly amoving a 200 supply army. 1 of the new toss units is a utility harass unit that will reward faster multitasking and strategic thinking. the replicant is going to be a nightmare to balance, but is going to be a situational unit that rewards on-the-fly decision making and allows for more in-depth strategical play. the new zerg units will add more importance on positional based play. the terran units make(or attempt to make) mech viable, making all 3 of their matchups more complicated and deeper strategically. moving burrowed banes place an incredible onus on detection. many of the unit changes are an attempt to fix silly things such as a small pack of marines endlessly kiting multiple ultralisks or a zerg remaxing on pure roach because hydras are worthless outside of a few situations. you claim that the expansions are removing key elements from gameplay but that is hardly the case. muta harass is dead because of a new nexus spell? unless the toss has full energy on 3 nexii, he is hardly going to be able to cover his whole base. quickly responding and casting the cannon ability on a structure covering the mineral line is just as skill based as 1a'ing a blob of stalkers there. the only thing that changes is a silly situation where toss can be pinned in his base for an unacceptable amount of time. furthermore, its hilarious to whine about a few, relatively minor, changes to game that has only been out a year. i dont know if there was a general consensus that the expansions were going to leave multiplayer untouched, but it was foolish if there was. every player and every pro player started playing starcraft 2 with the full understanding that there were still 2 expansions to be released along with dozens to hundreds of balance changes throughout. removing a few minor aspects while greatly expanding both the complexity and the skill ceiling of the game is a perfect direction for sc2 to be headed. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote: Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league. News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion. The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta. If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game. With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about. A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells. As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. You really need to get off your high horse. Cut out the first 3 paragraphs and I 100% agree with you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion weather you like it or not, or wether it's wrong or right. It's a shame the first 3 paragrahs were included, otherwise this would've been a great post. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10691 Posts
SC2 sure as hell does not need more Spellcasters or units with "exciting" abilities... It needs more "solid" unitchoices/mixes and more possibilities for "basic" unit micro. | ||
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Kerm
France467 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:50 architecture wrote: There are people who think SC2 is good enough as it is, and has done well. They are people who weren't around for most of pro BW. For anyone who has been around then, the only reasonable reaction is that SC2 has been a failure. It has not taken off in Korea. It has not spawned successful leagues worldwide past GSL. It has a lower viewership than LoL! To be honest, if anyone has inside information, I can only expect Blizzard themselves to be disappointed. They built the entire business model around leeching off of tournaments, but other than the GSL, none have been able to stand on its own feet. When DOTA2 comes around it's going to gobble up a ton of mindshare, viewers, and players. It's a better game at the top-end (more faithful to the original), and more accessible to casuals. The thing is that there's nothing to say about SC2. No decent player is going to go up to their friends and be like, man this game has amazing gameplay - because it doesn't. It's worse than BW, there's no way to go around that. The only lesson that should be taken away is that it's a bad idea to intentionally make a poor product. I don't get it. MLG viewership records ? IPL ? Dreamhack ? IEM ? Assembly ? I'm no Esport historian, but how many games ever had like major events every months, to a point people are saying it's too much ? When I hear the djWheat, the Day9, the Artosis and such, saying that finally they could make a living off of their passion, a real full time salary, you are calling that a failure ? I tell you what, just go and play BW if you like it, see you in 5 years. | ||
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Shewklad
Sweden482 Posts
the beauty of sc1 was that the game revolved moslty around melee(or attacking units) while having a few spellcasters as the supporting unit Brood War is still an existing game. You are free to go play it whenever you feel like. But I'm pretty sure you switched either cause you think this is the better game or cause you weren't good enough in BW. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
Your entire argument is based on a game that you have not played, that is barely alpha, and a whole bunch of hyperbole. You don't know that Arc Shield will nullify muta harass. You don't know how Replicants will work out in the metagame. Burrow moving banelings are negated in battles by having detection, in fact, their entire design purpose seems to be forcing more food into detection. I don't understand why half this thread is riding TT1's dick, because none of his arguments are based on the fact that he's a pro player, it's just a subjective tirade about a metagame that exists solely in his head. Well, I guess I do understand why. They agree with him, and are therefore co-opting him as an argument from authority fallacy to support their own opinions. SC2 is not Brood War. It's a similar game, but it's different. The claim that the game is made worse by spellcasters should not be jumbled in with "I don't like proposed HotS units", because it's a highly contentious one. You'd be hard pressed to find an SC2 zerg who doesn't like the infestor, and SC2 protoss is basically designed around the sentry. If you disagree with SC2 design on that basic a level, then it's really not a game for you. But to claim this game takes no micro is nonsense. The fact that you can choose to a-move doesn't mean that's the optimal way to play. We ooh and aah at pure stalker blink micro, but it should be entirely possible to blink your stalkers WHILE you forcefield and WHILE you protect your colossus and WHILE you focus with individual groups of zealots, in that 200/200 deathball vs MMM clash. | ||
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Merlimoo
France192 Posts
The point of the game is not to be able to play in this kind of way or this one. You do with what you have and shine with new strategies. Going into arguments, like its not how protoss is "supposed" to be played, it is not in the spirit of SC. WTF ? Who defined theses things ? I don't know, but I know who invented it. Not really the current SC2 balance team, since it's not the same guys as in BW. Anyway, if the game does not evolve, it dies. That's how life work. And that is why you BW fanboy does not play it anymore. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On October 26 2011 18:15 Kerm wrote: I don't get it. MLG viewership records ? IPL ? Dreamhack ? IEM ? Assembly ? I'm no Esport historian, but how many games ever had like major events every months, to a point people are saying it's too much ? When I hear the djWheat, the Day9, the Artosis and such, saying that finally they could make a living off of their passion, a real full time salary, you are calling that a failure ? I tell you what, just go and play BW if you like it, see you in 5 years. SC2 is doing great in my eyes. Here is hoping they don't srew it up with every expansion though..... | ||
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Carryz
United States67 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote: Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:15 bgx wrote: biggest flaw of SC2, is its game engine, when Dustin Browder said they wont change unit pathing because its to much work make me facepalm, so basically we are set for years with current physics, balls and stacking  He didn't say that. He thinks changing unit pathing is a terrible move for this game, even if it solves some of the problems you claim it solves. This is not Brood War HD. It's Starcraft 2. | ||
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Kerm
France467 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote: Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league. News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion. The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta. If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game. With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about. A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells. As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. News flash : game design is a real, hard, qualified job. The fact that random people or pro gamer thinks they can do better that industry veteran like Bowder is as real as saying that Bowder could kick their ass in a Bo3. Give TT1 or any smart ass in that thread saying HoTS unit design are "obviously flawed" a millions buck budget, and a team to develop the "ideal SC2", and you 100% know what you get : a shitty product and tons of wasted money. So i suggest to take your stupid elitism where it belong : in the end game chat , complaining about balance after having your bottom wiped by some GM that plays better than you. Let pro gamer play the game, and make meaningfull constructive feedbacks if they whish, but don't go ahead and bombard them game designers, they are not. | ||
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MotherOfRunes
Germany2862 Posts
people act like its already 100% certain....so plz stop the whine and wait for the beta, and even more important wait for the release where you see whats coming in for sure! even if yyour name is TT1 and i admire you, plz stop this whining and panicing!!!!! | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote: Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league. News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion. The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta. If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game. With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about. A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells. As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. i hate to be the bearer of bad news to you, but wow is not the first, and is far from the only, game to use a pull-like spell. brood war wasnt the first game to use a "storm"-like aoe damage spell. battlecruisers werent the first fictional spaceships with a powerful cannon. every spell that you see in games today has a counterpart from a game within the last 5 years which has another counterpart from a game older than that. science-fiction and fantasy has been beaten to death..every "original" idea was already thought of by some creative nerd in his mom's basement 10 years before that. did blizzard steal the pull from the DK? what about from HoN? LoL? Who knows. They probably didn't actively steal the idea from anywhere, but thought it would be a cool addition to a zerg caster. And it is. It punishes deathball play and rewards the faster fingers. Thats a good thing and in no possible way dumbs down the game. I love how spells somehow "dumb down" the game and eliminate micro. All of the new spells will make the micro battles MORE important, and place a much greater importance on positioning, something that is greatly missing with the deathball armies of sc2. When balanced, the nexus abilities are hardly going to be a failsafe but are going to add UTILITY, something that is missing for protoss. Does the call-down supply dumb down the terran race? Maybe a bit, but at the highest level it is RARELY seen and missing a mule can be the difference between winning and losing. We may not yet be at a point where perfect chronoboost usage is required for top, top play, but we will be. This game is only a year old and even the very best players are world's away from perfecting it. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
the way they splash also basically eliminates the point of trying to micro, it just melts everything too strongly with the perpendicular line of attack..trying to split is pointless. why couldnt they make it like the lurker where it starts from the foot of the colossus and shoots out in a line, encouraging players to fan units out/dodge the beams? I feel like the only reason they have the colossus in the game and haven't removed it..is because it looks cool. And they think maybe that's what the majority of their customers care about. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10691 Posts
On October 26 2011 18:25 gwaihir wrote: its so ridiculous how people act towards the upcoming expansion...i mean, i understand some of your concerns BUT...blizzard said 100 times that they will TRY it out....there will be a beta and they said its possible some stuff wont make it in OR getting reworked before getting in. people act like its already 100% certain....so plz stop the whine and wait for the beta, and even more important wait for the release where you see whats coming in for sure! even if yyour name is TT1 and i admire you, plz stop this whining and panicing!!!!! When you have to look at the units they have shown in the previews it's hard to just "wait for it" whiteout becoming an extremly negative person. Add into this that they say they don't want to make Deathballs stronger BUT at the same time add in stuff that basically only exists to disrupt harassing (Shredder, Protoss-Cannon-Thing)... It just makes absolutely no sense.. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote: My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. Yes it is, on things he has experience with. It's not based on anything when he's talking about a game that doesn't yet exist. I remember back in WoL beta a lot of pros didn't realize that the Sentry would be part of a mid-to-lategame army. | ||
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