EPTSC2 is heading in the wrong direction - Page 18
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wDDelete
103 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Oracle needs to be altered but it's not that bad. The Disruption Web/disable style thing and Mineral block seem pretty cool. I think they should get rid of the thing that lets you see research/unit building. That's like C&C stuff. Replicant should be ditched all together, or severely nerfed. 1 base robo, see what Terran is doing, if he's expanding take a SCV and you can expo in base while teching Colossus? What?! Even if that gets removed, the first tank he has out you can have one instantly safe in your main as long as you have an Observer on top of his Factory. Oh, and it has Siege Mode. What?!?!! I play Protoss, and would just laugh at the hilarity of it, but it's honestly not Starcraft. I'd rather have a balanced game, the Replicator is seriously broken. It needs to not be unlimited range, that's just absurd in my opinion considering the Observer is on the same tech. Another idea is to bring back the Dark Archon. Dark Archon would be pretty damn good versus 1-1-1. Maelstrom would reduce the Marine count significantly (it's a biological AOE stun that lasts a good amount of time), so you could deal with the Tanks and Banshees more easily. Also it would make 1-1-1 require more skill to pull off, since you'd want to get a good spread with your Marines to avoid a big Maelstrom hit. Than you'd have your Mind Control which would be similar, albeit not as powerful to what the Replicator is trying to do. Feedback is on HT in SC2, so you could put a new spell here. Arc Shield needs to only work on Nexus and possibly have a shorter duration. I think something like Arc Shield was warranted, as it can be insanely hard to stop aggression with 16 Nexus and 1 Gate expo. I dunno, it seems like they should just make it a Shield Battery effect. That would be sick, and would probably also help make PvP better. Nexus Recall should be 100 energy. I think it's a cool idea but it shouldn't come cheap. It should be used strategically. The more energy you have to save up, the better. It's a very strong ability so you don't want to rely on it as a means to defend harass. You wanna run in, Forcefield an expansion off, kill the Hatch/Command Center, and Recall back. Wasting 4 Chrono Boosts to defend harass you should have been able to do without Recall sucks. Maybe they should reduce the Nexus Recall spell bubble by a good amount, so it's similar to that of the Arbiter in BW. That way you would lose something, or have to choose the expensive units to come home (Colossus, Sentries), or bring everything except the Stalkers and then rely on Blink to escape with them... Call Down: supply should be replaced with something cool, that ability is simply a crutch. Thor change is dumb imo, and the new unit isn't really that cool. I'd rather just see that change get reverted and the Warhound removed/replaced/reworked. Hero units are dumb. | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:01 skypacer wrote: I agree with most of what you said, Mr.TT1. 1、Starcraft should be a mele-oriented game rather than a caster based one. Adding in too many casters means a risk of breaking the unique flavor of starcraft. 2、The philosophy of fixing issues by simply making things easier is neither fun nor cool, it will always results in the elimination of interesting gaming mechanics and challenging skill sets. there is literally ONE new battle caster being added to the game. | ||
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Carryz
United States67 Posts
On October 26 2011 18:47 Kerm wrote: The point did not flew over my head, but i probably made the mistake of adressing globally many answer while quoting only yours. However i'm quite capable of reading things like : So yeah you are clearly attacking the game design skills of Bowder's team, so i'm totally on point, despite your brash try to make me look like a fool. The same kind of critiques, coming also from some pro players, have been made back during beta, about "dumbing down the game", "skill ceiling", "removing micro" and stuff, and obviously they have been proven wrong by the success of SC2 in esport. So i respect you valuating Pro gamer's opinion, and Bowder obviously does too. I agree also that when talking about how the game works, the opinion of a pro player is probably more valuable than that of an amateur one. Although I would not deny casual players to give their opinions. But my point is that those pro players are not game designers, and that the solution is not to blindly take their criticisms on the new unit design as the way to go toward a successful product. They have been proven wrong in the past, and that's normal because their job is to play the game, not to make it. And Bowder has brought the game where it is now (which is : a fairly balanced game, and the most competitive RTS of the market), so I don't see any ground for anyone to brag they know better about SC2 design than them. I'll pass on your time zone teasing (congratz on calculating the time difference, huge feat), because after reading you i'm not sure if I should go back to school or stay in it. But i'll tell you a secret : i'm at office atm. Peace. A professional gamer gives his/her criticism and feedback on the game's balance. The way the new units are looking, the idea behind it is not going to make the unit to be balanced well. Hence, the unit design is bad. There's a big difference between Blizzard designing a bad unit and designing a bad game. The game is great, the new upcoming units however are not. That is the complaint. For the 2nd time, no one is saying that Blizzard is making a piece of shit game. You can stop repeating yourself, no one is that stupid. The reason why the game is as balanced as it is, is because of the pro scene. They play and experiment every unit to its maximum potential. Obviously not everything is explored yet, but the point remains. What is seen there is than leaked to the community and the message gets out to the Blizzard team. Blizzard is an amazing company, but they're not balancing the game by themselves. No one is doubting that Blizzard can create a game better than any of us, which is a point that you keep coming back to for some reason. The pro players obviously know what they're talking about, regardless if they're a low/mid/high tier of caliber. Their feedback is the most important and the fact that a large amount of people are shooting it down to place their own amateur(at best) opinion is retarded to see. And once again, the gamers give balance feedback. They do not create the game nor do they claim they can create a game better than Blizzard. | ||
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Merlimoo
France192 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:01 Carryz wrote: [...] In TT1's case, he's complaining about the potential fail-safes. In particular, the abilities that the Nexus is receiving. I'm sure that he's well aware that the game is in alpha stages and anything can happen. But based on Blizzard's current ideas and plans for the new units, it's going the wrong direction. No one is saying HotS is going to be a piece of shit. We're just saying that based on what Blizzard has currently done, the future isn't looking too great. His other complaint are the new units. Like I said in my previous posts, I see them to be very gimmicky. Micro-intensive battles between non-casting units will not be as important as the spell caster battles. This draws back to the BW model. Yes, spell caster units was big in BW but it doesn't play a big as a role as the units in SC2 do. There are countless games where a battle has been decided just based on a few spell caster units. I'm not complaining about that, I'm complaining that adding MORE game changing spells is going to turn SC2 into SpellCraft. The grip ability is just too out of this world, that simply doesn't belong in SC2. The idea behind it is alright, but in an RTS game like SC2? That just doesn't make sense. The Replica unit is also out of its element in SC2. Being able to just simply copy another unit? If that stays in the game, you will see games revolving around replicating one of the other two opposing races and one player playing two races. That's just too wild, and in a bad way. There is the direction you want, labeling the other as the wrong ones, and there is the direction they want, that you probably cannot envision. For instance, having less micro, i.e. less nerds playing for hours to do something great, and emphasizing spell choices (that still need micro to be effective) and potentiality (like a unit that can decide really late what it is), thus trying the prevail the power of scout, and decision making is a good path for an Real Time Strategy game, not Real Time Micro game. You seems to worry about the fact that protoss will play 2 races. That is a potential abuse, that I think they don't want too. To avoid that (for now), having a tank at 4 pop, and 200 200, with latter tech, can be a good way to avoid that. You simply cannot have the same tank army as the terran with the same amount of support units, that are different anyway. They have to be sure that tank marine is still more powerful that tank blink stalker for instance, if it is even possible to pull it off. What I want to say is, for this unit in particular, if they is not (we don't know it yet) big flaw that can came out of it, like raven copy, seeker in marines in an instant, that blew terran, they can make some tweaks to make it work. If you try to see want they could want for that units (OP aside). It can be great to watch. Terran is versatile race, that can adapt reasonably. With this units, the terran player will have to see if the game will be a standard TvP or more like a TvP-T. That can be really nice to watch the decision making of each players in this case. You obviously cannot copy tank and go colossus at the same time for instance. At which moment will it be decided, can it be easily switched ? Theses are the real questions... I am much more worried about detection for zerg and shredders... | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:01 Carryz wrote: I'll be glad to. If you haven't noticed already, games as of late have been produced to cater to casuals. You see it in all games, everything has become a lot easier and more newbie friendly. An example would be any of the CoD series or WoW. Any advancements or expansions of these games comes with much more ease to play. Of course this isn't about FPS or MMOs, but it holds the same concept. I'm aware that SC2 is a VERY new game. I'm aware that it takes a very long to balance and perfect an RTS game. I am also very aware that SC2 and BW are two seperate games. Let's just get those out of the way. There's a very simple reason why people are overreacting to something that is in its alpha stages. The idea and plan behind the new units are lacking and simply dull. On the other hand, if it's something that is "interesting," it's on the other extreme of being completely out of place in a SC2 game. The reason why people keep referring back to BW is because it's a good model to take ideas from. It's essentially the perfect and most well balanced RTS game. It's not unreasonable for people to want the game to be similar. The game differs mechanically, but you can still derive other aspects of BW and implement it into SC2. In TT1's case, he's complaining about the potential fail-safes. In particular, the abilities that the Nexus is receiving. I'm sure that he's well aware that the game is in alpha stages and anything can happen. But based on Blizzard's current ideas and plans for the new units, it's going the wrong direction. No one is saying HotS is going to be a piece of shit. We're just saying that based on what Blizzard has currently done, the future isn't looking too great. His other complaint are the new units. Like I said in my previous posts, I see them to be very gimmicky. Micro-intensive battles between non-casting units will not be as important as the spell caster battles. This draws back to the BW model. Yes, spell caster units was big in BW but it doesn't play a big as a role as the units in SC2 do. There are countless games where a battle has been decided just based on a few spell caster units. I'm not complaining about that, I'm complaining that adding MORE game changing spells is going to turn SC2 into SpellCraft. The grip ability is just too out of this world, that simply doesn't belong in SC2. The idea behind it is alright, but in an RTS game like SC2? That just doesn't make sense. The Replica unit is also out of its element in SC2. Being able to just simply copy another unit? If that stays in the game, you will see games revolving around replicating one of the other two opposing races and one player playing two races. That's just too wild, and in a bad way. Not gonna go deep into every aspect of your post, but reading it makes me think you just used the wrong wording when saying "cringe worthy deisgn of the new units". Out of the 8 (I believe.... shredder/warhound/battle hellion/viper/swarm host/tempest/replica/oracle.... did I miss anyone?) new units, you complained about 1. Or rather 1+1/3, since the the grip is 1 of the 3 spells the viper has. So if only 1.33 out of 8 new units have bad designs, is that really "cringe worthy"? The game having too many spells i guess is a valid complaint, although I'm guessing a lot of people disagree there too, but thats another topic. But thats not really related to "unit design", but rather "battle design" (couldnt find a better word for it, but you get my point) on a larger scale. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
I was hoping SC2 would move away from this kind of design for the expansions, see that the units that were designed like this were the least interesting ones but I guess not. | ||
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Merlimoo
France192 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:13 Carryz wrote: A professional gamer gives his/her criticism and feedback on the game's balance. The way the new units are looking, the idea behind it is not going to make the unit to be balanced well. Hence, the unit design is bad. There's a big difference between Blizzard designing a bad unit and designing a bad game. The game is great, the new upcoming units however are not. That is the complaint. For the 2nd time, no one is saying that Blizzard is making a piece of shit game. You can stop repeating yourself, no one is that stupid. The reason why the game is as balanced as it is, is because of the pro scene. They play and experiment every unit to its maximum potential. Obviously not everything is explored yet, but the point remains. What is seen there is than leaked to the community and the message gets out to the Blizzard team. Blizzard is an amazing company, but they're not balancing the game by themselves. No one is doubting that Blizzard can create a game better than any of us, which is a point that you keep coming back to for some reason. The pro players obviously know what they're talking about, regardless if they're a low/mid/high tier of caliber. Their feedback is the most important and the fact that a large amount of people are shooting it down to place their own amateur(at best) opinion is retarded to see. And once again, the gamers give balance feedback. They do not create the game nor do they claim they can create a game better than Blizzard. Pro players can only said, after hours of test, it works, it can works with tweaks maybe or it does not work at all. EDIT: it is hard to say if it can really not work or if we have not find a way yet... | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On October 26 2011 18:51 Yaotzin wrote: The philosophy of Starcraft is to have 3 very different races - as opposed to something like Age of Empires which has numerous races with small differences. The replicant goes against this, melding Terran and Zerg with Protoss. Protoss would no longer be unique - they would just steal the best of all worlds. The balancing would be a nightmare also, for this reason. I really wish they had stuck to the themes more though. Zerg being squishy but large in numbers, until the surprise ending when Ultras come out. Protoss being strong, efficient, but expensive and thus few. And Terran being the map control race of perfect positioning and defense, but vs zerg being the mobile infantry race. The themes are really confused now, and I understand why. Roach didn't work out as intended so they made it this tank unit for zerg which doesn't make sense since it's bread and butter for zerg now. Gateway units are weak now because of warpin. In bw protoss units and their spells were really good. So they nerfed the units due to warp in, meaning the units now rely completely and absolutely on spells and non gateway units. And terran bio was intentionally made very viable by giving terran the marauder which is infantry but it's super good vs armored, so massing that with marines and stim works. Terran is somewhat closer to what it was in bw though, since it still has this choice of mech vs infantry, and this seems to be made better in hots. This is not a discussion of balance, balance wise everything is fine. But design wise, idk what's going on. | ||
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Merlimoo
France192 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:18 pezit wrote: We already have rock/paper/scissor mechanics in the game where the colossus is probably the biggest offender in the game. Every game where the protoss builds a colossus turns into how many vikings/corruptors does he have versus my colossus, there's almost nothing else to it which is just extremely uninteresting and that's only one of many problems with the colossus. I guess you could argue that carriers and goliath has the same thing going in BW? But at least in that game it came down a lot to maneuvering since the goliath was on the ground. There is no such thing as rock/paper/scissor in sc2. Just a lack of scouting and a lack of capability to evaluate possibilities. | ||
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TI15
3 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Merlimoo
France192 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:22 TI15 wrote: I agree with OP Noted... -.-' | ||
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TI15
3 Posts
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j0ker
275 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:08 Tump wrote: Tempest is good. Mobile AOE anti air was needed...Archons and High Templar are both ground units, and slow. Storm can be dodged easily, Archons can be magic boxed and ripped apart. Oracle needs to be altered but it's not that bad. The Disruption Web/disable style thing and Mineral block seem pretty cool. I think they should get rid of the thing that lets you see research/unit building. That's like C&C stuff. Replicant should be ditched all together, or severely nerfed. 1 base robo, see what Terran is doing, if he's expanding take a SCV and you can expo in base while teching Colossus? What?! Even if that gets removed, the first tank he has out you can have one instantly safe in your main as long as you have an Observer on top of his Factory. Oh, and it has Siege Mode. What?!?!! I play Protoss, and would just laugh at the hilarity of it, but it's honestly not Starcraft. I'd rather have a balanced game, the Replicator is seriously broken. It needs to not be unlimited range, that's just absurd in my opinion considering the Observer is on the same tech. Another idea is to bring back the Dark Archon. Dark Archon would be pretty damn good versus 1-1-1. Maelstrom would reduce the Marine count significantly (it's a biological AOE stun that lasts a good amount of time), so you could deal with the Tanks and Banshees more easily. Also it would make 1-1-1 require more skill to pull off, since you'd want to get a good spread with your Marines to avoid a big Maelstrom hit. Than you'd have your Mind Control which would be similar, albeit not as powerful to what the Replicator is trying to do. Feedback is on HT in SC2, so you could put a new spell here. Arc Shield needs to only work on Nexus and possibly have a shorter duration. I think something like Arc Shield was warranted, as it can be insanely hard to stop aggression with 16 Nexus and 1 Gate expo. I dunno, it seems like they should just make it a Shield Battery effect. That would be sick, and would probably also help make PvP better. Nexus Recall should be 100 energy. I think it's a cool idea but it shouldn't come cheap. It should be used strategically. The more energy you have to save up, the better. It's a very strong ability so you don't want to rely on it as a means to defend harass. You wanna run in, Forcefield an expansion off, kill the Hatch/Command Center, and Recall back. Wasting 4 Chrono Boosts to defend harass you should have been able to do without Recall sucks. Maybe they should reduce the Nexus Recall spell bubble by a good amount, so it's similar to that of the Arbiter in BW. That way you would lose something, or have to choose the expensive units to come home (Colossus, Sentries), or bring everything except the Stalkers and then rely on Blink to escape with them... Call Down: supply should be replaced with something cool, that ability is simply a crutch. Thor change is dumb imo, and the new unit isn't really that cool. I'd rather just see that change get reverted and the Warhound removed/replaced/reworked. Hero units are dumb. its way too early to discuss the replicant in terms of specific usage as it will likely be changed quite a bit before the beta. But for fun, the replicant gambit you proposed would be extremely risky. You would need a ton of gas to get robo, observer, replicant, and would be very vulnerable during that time. If he goes marine marauder(quite common in TvP, I hear) you have nothing worthwhile to copy and are proposing sinking that on an SCV to build a CC in base. Ok, you might be safe if you managed to get out enough sentries in the midst of all that gas spending. Your colossus tech is going to be quite late on 1 base with all that gas already spent and medivacs are heading your way very, very soon. Even if you don't die, you are going to have to build a depot and then a barracks before you can even morph the orbital and begin reaping the benefits of the mule. Assuming you don't die right away because you are rushing observer-replicant and assuming you dont die when your replicant becomes a 200 gas worker and assuming you dont die while your minerals are being spent on worthless terran infrastructure you may be okay. But I'm hard-pressed to believe you would even be on even footing with the terran at that point. For the record, I think the replicant stealing an scv could be a strong mid-late to late game play in PvT assuming a few things arent changed, but I dont think it would be powerful or prevalent enough to become silly. And seeing it used a few times by super creative players would be really cool. The replicant will surely be hard to balance, but the fact that it costs 200 gas and is built in the robo is a pretty good start. There are very few ways 200 gas could safely be spent to copy one unit. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
They are trying to create interesting new addititions without simply adding an extra unit to the deathball. I also don't think P will just be same unit combo's all over, the tempest for example looks to be a massable unit just like carriers of BW in PvT. So far I only think the swam host and oracle suck immensely, replicant isn't too exciting either but I do see the possibility for cool strategies with it though I dislike the 'I punish you for making a banshee/raven" aspect of it. | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:18 pezit wrote: We already have rock/paper/scissor mechanics in the game where the colossus is probably the biggest offender in the game. Every game where the protoss builds a colossus turns into how many vikings/corruptors does he have versus my colossus, there's almost nothing else to it which is just extremely uninteresting and that's only one of many problems with the colossus. I guess you could argue that carriers and goliath has the same thing going in BW? But at least in that game it came down a lot to maneuvering since the goliath was on the ground. I was hoping SC2 would move away from this kind of design for the expansions, see that the units that were designed like this were the least interesting ones but I guess not. there is absolutely nothing rock/paper/scissors in starcraft 2 aside from possibly pvp. being prepared for colossi is simply a matter of scouting and if you think there is no maneuvering involved with colossi-based toss armies you are sadly mistaken. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:24 TI15 wrote: also; the tempest is pretty much usless. It wil be used even less often than the carrier(unless the ground attack is actually good) A unit designed to kill everything airborne is useless? Interesting opinion. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:24 TI15 wrote: also; the tempest is pretty much usless. It wil be used even less often than the carrier(unless the ground attack is actually good) 35 damage at ~6 range in the Blizzcon demo. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:20 Merlimoo wrote: There is no such thing as rock/paper/scissor in sc2. Just a lack of scouting and a lack of capability to evaluate possibilities. I didn't mean the random element of RPS but the fact that it is a hard counter AND the only counter. You either get vikings or you die. And then once you have vikings it's almost only numbers and nothing about control. | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
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