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On October 26 2011 19:29 Mithriel wrote:
Blizzard is always trying to make their games full retard prove, because that's the majority of their customers. I can't say I'm surprised though, just look at what they did to WoW.
I wish they were not such thing as democracy or republic or human kindness, just elitism. Retards would not be allow to vote or post in a forum like this one.
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On October 26 2011 19:29 Mithriel wrote:
Blizzard is always trying to make their games full retard prove, because that's the majority of their customers. I can't say I'm surprised though, just look at what they did to WoW.
Made the endgame skill-based instead of grind-based?
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On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community)
i agree with the idea of removing shit pre-beta but there is a paradox at work. we as a community really have no fuckin clue whatsoever what will actually make it to beta. potentially nothing, though more likely half or more of this stuff will make it to beta. more importantly, things we could never account for, like new units that get traded in for ones that turn out to be shit, and other random upgrades and general statistical revisions, will just show up in our face in beta and we'll be all "WTF YOU DIDN'T SHOW THAT AT BLIZZCON." then we'll be all butthurt and stuff because we had no say and it turns out the things we have no say *magically* happen to have extreme volatility. at some point you just have to put faith of some kind in blizzard even though my faith is tested at best.
i totally agree that blizzard almost needs to be coddled to not make retarded mistakes, and sometimes they make retarded mistakes anyways by not listening or by not involving the community with their decisions or by the community just being ignorant of the grand scheme at times. but HOTS is not really going to involve the community until at least some kind of open beta stage where a significantly small amount of things can be removed or changed, i'm like 99% sure of this. so the "wait till the game comes out" response has validity to it.
hopefully blizzard will realize the issue and at least give important community members (i.e. people who know their shit) an alpha version for testing and be open to suggestions because they won't be able to get a community-wide set of opinions.
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burrowed banelings > removes ovie/bane drop vs gate unit/collo balls micro battles in pvz, having burrowed banes in the late game just makes ff's useless so z's wont need to upg drop anymore
like you wouldnt have a observer there anyway for burrowed roaches
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I think as community we should create an esport counsil that will have a siege at blizzard and have a voice of this kind of choice.
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We're having to many of these topics, at the very least use proper capitalization of "I" and "I'm" aswell as "please" instead of "plz" when you're trying to make a point... makes you seem less like a 12 year old.
I just think there's to many abilities and it won't make the game better since no human can harness the overall speed of SC2 + all the new idiotic abilities making for shitty labile battles that end the game to fast.
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100% agree with OP, I had the exact same response to the Protoss additions in HOTS. Not only did Blizzard not fix the real issues with Protoss, but they also added WAY too many caster units. One thing I would like to add is that having a pure caster as a harass unit (oracle) is retarded. It doesn't take any skill or control, you just pop in your opponent's base and use its abilities.
They're trying to wow players by bringing in "cool" new units, but that doesn't work so well for the game. Bottom line problem is that Blizzard is looking to sell the product to the most people possible, and 99% of those people are NOT high-level gamers.
Thankfully Zerg and Terran changes are still pretty good (they make sense for the MOST part), but the Protoss additions are just horrible and don't belong in this game. Blizzard should promote micro/multitasking, like it did with the new hellion and shredder for Terran, and the caster unit for Zerg.
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t_t some more?
User was warned for this post
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See, phoenixes were intended to counter muta play in WoL.
Problem: They don't
Solution: Give carriers an AOE air attack.
???
Carriers are supposed to be the endgame flying power unit for Toss.
Problem: They take too long to build, interceptors are murdered by marines (which are bound to have better upgrades), and are also murdered by corruptors and vikings.
Solution: Give them an AOE air attack and some kind of ground attack, but let's change this unit altogether!
???
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On October 26 2011 12:56 roymarthyup wrote:
also i think its good to note that dustin said they pretty much thought up crap and put it in without testing it, and they said they arent afraid to remove most if not all of the units if they decide it should be removed
History seems to show infact they are stubborn and won't remove certain things though; like Collosus or the Thor which is still in the game in some form despite not being wanted or needed.
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On October 26 2011 19:54 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:56 roymarthyup wrote:
also i think its good to note that dustin said they pretty much thought up crap and put it in without testing it, and they said they arent afraid to remove most if not all of the units if they decide it should be removed History seems to show infact they are stubborn and won't remove certain things though; like Collosus or the Thor which is still in the game in some form despite not being wanted or needed.
2 years ago we said the Thor, Mothership and the Colossus were a shitty idea. We said the game centered too much around ball vs ball combat instead of large scale, front-like positional battles (like in real war and BW).
Few days ago...
Dustin Browder: Guys, we've recognised that we have some problems with these units...
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On October 26 2011 19:25 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:08 Tump wrote:
Tempest is good. Mobile AOE anti air was needed...Archons and High Templar are both ground units, and slow. Storm can be dodged easily, Archons can be magic boxed and ripped apart.
Oracle needs to be altered but it's not that bad. The Disruption Web/disable style thing and Mineral block seem pretty cool. I think they should get rid of the thing that lets you see research/unit building. That's like C&C stuff.
Replicant should be ditched all together, or severely nerfed. 1 base robo, see what Terran is doing, if he's expanding take a SCV and you can expo in base while teching Colossus? What?! Even if that gets removed, the first tank he has out you can have one instantly safe in your main as long as you have an Observer on top of his Factory. Oh, and it has Siege Mode. What?!?!! I play Protoss, and would just laugh at the hilarity of it, but it's honestly not Starcraft. I'd rather have a balanced game, the Replicator is seriously broken. It needs to not be unlimited range, that's just absurd in my opinion considering the Observer is on the same tech. Another idea is to bring back the Dark Archon. Dark Archon would be pretty damn good versus 1-1-1. Maelstrom would reduce the Marine count significantly (it's a biological AOE stun that lasts a good amount of time), so you could deal with the Tanks and Banshees more easily. Also it would make 1-1-1 require more skill to pull off, since you'd want to get a good spread with your Marines to avoid a big Maelstrom hit. Than you'd have your Mind Control which would be similar, albeit not as powerful to what the Replicator is trying to do. Feedback is on HT in SC2, so you could put a new spell here.
Arc Shield needs to only work on Nexus and possibly have a shorter duration. I think something like Arc Shield was warranted, as it can be insanely hard to stop aggression with 16 Nexus and 1 Gate expo. I dunno, it seems like they should just make it a Shield Battery effect. That would be sick, and would probably also help make PvP better.
Nexus Recall should be 100 energy. I think it's a cool idea but it shouldn't come cheap. It should be used strategically. The more energy you have to save up, the better. It's a very strong ability so you don't want to rely on it as a means to defend harass. You wanna run in, Forcefield an expansion off, kill the Hatch/Command Center, and Recall back. Wasting 4 Chrono Boosts to defend harass you should have been able to do without Recall sucks. Maybe they should reduce the Nexus Recall spell bubble by a good amount, so it's similar to that of the Arbiter in BW. That way you would lose something, or have to choose the expensive units to come home (Colossus, Sentries), or bring everything except the Stalkers and then rely on Blink to escape with them...
Call Down: supply should be replaced with something cool, that ability is simply a crutch.
Thor change is dumb imo, and the new unit isn't really that cool. I'd rather just see that change get reverted and the Warhound removed/replaced/reworked. Hero units are dumb.
its way too early to discuss the replicant in terms of specific usage as it will likely be changed quite a bit before the beta. But for fun, the replicant gambit you proposed would be extremely risky. You would need a ton of gas to get robo, observer, replicant, and would be very vulnerable during that time. If he goes marine marauder(quite common in TvP, I hear) you have nothing worthwhile to copy and are proposing sinking that on an SCV to build a CC in base. Ok, you might be safe if you managed to get out enough sentries in the midst of all that gas spending. Your colossus tech is going to be quite late on 1 base with all that gas already spent and medivacs are heading your way very, very soon. Even if you don't die, you are going to have to build a depot and then a barracks before you can even morph the orbital and begin reaping the benefits of the mule. Assuming you don't die right away because you are rushing observer-replicant and assuming you dont die when your replicant becomes a 200 gas worker and assuming you dont die while your minerals are being spent on worthless terran infrastructure you may be okay. But I'm hard-pressed to believe you would even be on even footing with the terran at that point. For the record, I think the replicant stealing an scv could be a strong mid-late to late game play in PvT assuming a few things arent changed, but I dont think it would be powerful or prevalent enough to become silly. And seeing it used a few times by super creative players would be really cool. The replicant will surely be hard to balance, but the fact that it costs 200 gas and is built in the robo is a pretty good start. There are very few ways 200 gas could safely be spent to copy one unit. Yeah, it wouldn't be that strong until people figure out exactly how to abuse the worker steal. At that point it'd be ridiculous, especially with unlimited range. I still think we won't even get to see worker steal still be in-game come beta.
Still though, unless they make the cost, tech requirements, build time, or supply harsher, I think building Siege Tanks early against Protoss would be more of a benefit to them than Terran. Yeah they might cost more already, but you have Warpgate units combined with Siege Tanks. I think that'd be nuts, 1v1 is not balanced for that.
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I still strongly dislike the Colossus.
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On October 26 2011 13:51 architecture wrote:
There is a huge, oft-repeated, fallacy that SC2 can only be popular if it is different from BW.
To give you four simple counterexamples:
1. DOTA2, will start as more or less a clone of DOTA
2. HON, started as clone of DOTA
3. QL, faithful to Q3
4. CS:GO, faithful to CSS
What these other companies understand, that Blizzard apparently does not, is that people will play a good product/game. Making it different, doesn't make it better by default.
In fact the game would be 10x better if Blizzard had started by cloning the BW multiplayer, and made adjustments to that based on the new engine. Expansions could expand on the new possibilities added by a modern engine.
Instead, they pretty much threw the baby out with the bathwater - and we are left with a game that is struggling to achieve the complexity that the original so effortlessly captured.
Brood War did NOT effortlessly capture complexity, it was developed over 10 years. Don't get all romantic on me.
Honestly, you're just wrong..you want this game to be BW, atleast you're honest, but that's not the point of SC2. It's a new modern rethinking of a balanced three race metagame, that is still dayum good despite differences from BW.
You know, I hate when people compare BW to god, because BW is so much better.
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I was first also like "WTF is this unit doing in SC2" when I first heard about it. But then listening to Dustin Browder in Blizzcon I kinda liked how they are thinking with new units.
He basically said that sometimes they just need to stop thinking metagame and how the unit will turn out but just throw the unit out there in testing and see how it plays out.
It's not like it's set in stone that this unit will be in HoTS if it comes to a point where they think they can't balance the unit correctly or fit it in.
I kinda agree that a unit like this design wise doesn't quite fit SC, on the other hand I got a little smile on my face when they threw this unit out there. It was really a bold move and I like them trying out some new territory while they have their chance, aka it is going to go through beta and a lots of testing before even hitting the game.
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The game is not even in Beta testing yet and your already complaining!?
Just wait for release before you pass judgement when you don't know how these things will be used
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented
I didn't read anything else in to the but this, so I may be of topic.
I totally agree that in SC2 there are WAY too many units that have a very specific role, whereas in BW, there were no such units. there was no I'm-specifically-there-to-harass-early-game-Reaper (etc.) unit.
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i agree with TT1 and i think blizzard should nerf a bit Kotick
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Sounds more like the topic should be "I don't like where the protoss race is going". I can agree somewhat with that because toss got the worst units but I think zerg and terran units like swarm host, viper and shredder is taking sc2 in good direction.
The burrowed banelings is not really a good example if it's going to be on hive tech and it's not likely that the will burrow especially fast underground either. With the arc shield it feels more like you have to think of the conecpt since they can balance energy cost and damage later, maybe it will be good for 6min but then not worth the energy dump when you have recall availible? We can't really know that now.
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On October 26 2011 20:01 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:51 architecture wrote:
There is a huge, oft-repeated, fallacy that SC2 can only be popular if it is different from BW.
To give you four simple counterexamples:
1. DOTA2, will start as more or less a clone of DOTA
2. HON, started as clone of DOTA
3. QL, faithful to Q3
4. CS:GO, faithful to CSS
What these other companies understand, that Blizzard apparently does not, is that people will play a good product/game. Making it different, doesn't make it better by default.
In fact the game would be 10x better if Blizzard had started by cloning the BW multiplayer, and made adjustments to that based on the new engine. Expansions could expand on the new possibilities added by a modern engine.
Instead, they pretty much threw the baby out with the bathwater - and we are left with a game that is struggling to achieve the complexity that the original so effortlessly captured.
Brood War did NOT effortlessly capture complexity, it was developed over 10 years. Don't get all romantic on me. Honestly, you're just wrong..you want this game to be BW, atleast you're honest, but that's not the point of SC2. It's a new modern rethinking of a balanced three race metagame, that is still dayum good despite differences from BW. You know, I hate when people compare BW to god, because BW is so much better.
wrong point son, BW was thought of as a conceptually simple game when it came out. It had an understated elegance, to be sure. but it was not in development for 10 years.
the game has been evolving for 10 years because the players have gradually recognised that it is, in fact, very complex strategically and mechanically demanding.
i dont think sc2 should be bw2, but i think that blizzard has failed to capture what made bw such a good game and apply those lessons to sc2.
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