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On October 27 2011 01:17 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:22 iaguz wrote:
I wish I had an archive of threads from 13 years ago complaining about the new units added to Broodwar. It could look like this:
"Lurker is a dumb name, doesn't sound Zerg at all! It should be the Spiderlisk."
"Disruption web looks so pointless, Corsair is so gimmicky. Should remove this unit imo."
"Why no love for the Scout unit?"
"Oh, thanks for putting Valkyries in the game, that just shuts down mutalisks so hard! Why bother making this unit now! Fucking blizzard can't design for shit"
"A PERMANENTLY invisible unit that 1 shots workers, requires no upgrade to do so and comes from the same tech as psi storm? Explain how protoss lose now kk."
"Stim Marines are gonna be so op with medics supporting then ><" Or they could've complained about Spawning Pools being 150 minerals.
The problem with the post you're quoting is that he's holding battle.net threads to the same standard as TL threads. All of those are obviously absurd complaints looking back on them, and some of them are probably made up as well. What he's doing is attempting to discredit the OPs concerns with a terrible analogy by comparing it to bad complaints people (supposedly) made over a decade ago on a different forum.
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Calgary25998 Posts
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
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I understand that you are afraid of change. The unknown is a wicked beast that has defeated greater men than I. The problem with all of these threads is that there will be a beta. I think we, as a community, know this game well enough to take these units and abuse the hell out of them. If any of these units shouldn't be in the game, we'll flush them out. You just have to have faith in our nature to secure easy wins with broken strategies.
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David Kim said it best himself, which was that they prefer balancing spellcasters because their range of usage is lesser than say a marine or a stalker, so its easier that way.
This kind of reflects the whole experience in in HoTs, the units mainly have a very niche role so that Blizzards job balancing it is easier and it has less impact on overall balance.
But what happens to the game when you take this approach is that you force people into certain directions "hey ur supposed to do exactly this with this unit, go do it!".
The overall experience then feels akward because the units dont feel like they belong together and are more of a seperate entitity that you can play fun minigames with within the main game, zzz.
Dont like.
That said, I really doubt replicant would make it to beta, I've studied game design for 3 years and that particular unit is just wrong on so many levels that you could actually write a book about it.
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On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
Was this really true back in the very early days when BW was first releasing and blizzard was patching often? I mean, I'm sure after BW was 2-3 years old, all of the demanding balance changes mostly stopped, but in the super early days I would've expected there would be more talk about changing things. (Though, maybe less heated since esports was a lot less intense/ big then too?)
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This is blizzard designing a game/unit for multiplayer and not for Starcraft.
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Can't help but think if this was written by anyone other than a pro it would have been closed immediately, because truth be told it's a pretty terrible op.
The replicant obviously has more applications than simply defending a singular specific timing push. Let's not pretend like we somehow already know exactly how units that haven't been implemented will interact and come into play in competitive sc2.
Starcraft 2 can't be micro-intensive in the same way that brood war was, because it's an entirely different game with:
- hardly any collision sizes (200/200 armies are freaking 3cm^2 blobs floating around the map like some sort of liquid). Makes aoe ridiculously good, and positioning useless.
- auto-surround and clever ai, makes it so that the only feasible form of micro in this game is stutter stepping in a select few scenarios.
- spellcasting without selecting individual casters making it easier as well as aforementioned tiny army sizes allowing for t click t click t click to blanket an entire army with storm, etc etc. Very impressive.
In sc2 you distinguish yourself by having tight builds, scouting and making correct decisions. There is no hero reaver or impeccable vulture harass that'll tilt the direction of a game. There is no engagement where clever positioning, targeting the right units and individually microing your few but precious casters will overcome an army of bigger size, better upgrades or better composition.
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On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.
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On October 26 2011 20:02 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented I didn't read anything else in to the but this, so I may be of topic. I totally agree that in SC2 there are WAY too many units that have a very specific role, whereas in BW, there were no such units. there was no I'm-specifically-there-to-harass-early-game-Reaper (etc.) unit.
This is completely untrue. Many units in BW have very specific roles and are only built in very specific scenarios. Corsairs, Firebats, Valkyries, Devourers, Dropships, etc. If anything units in SC2 have less specific roles, like say the Medivac which can heal OR drop, and is worth getting for either of those purposes. All the AtA units have some form of utility that can be used against ground (unlike the Devourer and Valkyrie).
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On October 27 2011 01:36 hifriend wrote:
There is no engagement where clever positioning, targeting the right units and individually microing your few but precious casters will overcome an army of bigger size, better upgrades or better composition.
Because excellent marine splits don't completely counter very large amounts of banelings, or spreading mutas allowing for destroying thors, or getting off very good emps on a few sentries allow your armyto pick off large amounts of stalkers, or microing hellions well lets you kill off dozens of drones, or catching an opponent unsieged letting you pick off several tanks, or baiting marines over baneling mines with mutas, or microing 1-2 stalkers to kill 5+ marines and a few scvs, or microing a banshee to kill a dozen marines.
Yeah, unit control doesn't matter at all.
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I agree with OP
I do like the arc sheild though, i expect it will change by the time HOTS comes out
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Calgary25998 Posts
On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them. It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.
Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.
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On October 27 2011 01:45 Verator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 01:36 hifriend wrote:
There is no engagement where clever positioning, targeting the right units and individually microing your few but precious casters will overcome an army of bigger size, better upgrades or better composition. Because excellent marine splits don't completely counter very large amounts of banelings, or spreading mutas allowing for destroying thors, or getting off very good emps on a few sentries allow your armyto pick off large amounts of stalkers, or microing hellions well lets you kill off dozens of drones, or catching an opponent unsieged letting you pick off several tanks, or baiting marines over baneling mines with mutas, or microing 1-2 stalkers to kill 5+ marines and a few scvs, or microing a banshee to kill a dozen marines. Yeah, unit control doesn't matter at all.
Most of those things are pretty trivial in their execution, and those that aren't rarely ever happen, but more importantly you're talking about micro on a very small scale whereas I was focusing primarily on big engagement.
My point is this, in 99 times out of a 100 in starcraft 2, I'll be able to tell exactly which player ends up ahead prior to the engagement, and the same isn't true for brood war.
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On October 27 2011 01:45 Verator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 01:36 hifriend wrote:
There is no engagement where clever positioning, targeting the right units and individually microing your few but precious casters will overcome an army of bigger size, better upgrades or better composition. Because excellent marine splits don't completely counter very large amounts of banelings, or spreading mutas allowing for destroying thors, or getting off very good emps on a few sentries allow your armyto pick off large amounts of stalkers, or microing hellions well lets you kill off dozens of drones, or catching an opponent unsieged letting you pick off several tanks, or baiting marines over baneling mines with mutas, or microing 1-2 stalkers to kill 5+ marines and a few scvs, or microing a banshee to kill a dozen marines. Yeah, unit control doesn't matter at all.
If you are being outmacroed, or you got behind early on in e game. For example, It is almost impossible to defeat Protoss warp gate timings if you got slightly behind early. (eg you 10 pool it does nothing and he 4 gates).
If you just mass stalker colossus or mmm, your opponent will never defeat is army without better composition or numbers.
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It's interesting that this thread was made now since I believe that the game is, to a greater degree than before, heading in the right direction at the moment (shredders, swarm host, viper). I agree that replicators don't belong in an RTS game though.
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I see a lot of QQ before the game even comes out. Is this guy really metagaming before the game begins?
As useless and stupid as the Replicant may sound (after all, if I wanted Zerg/Terran units, I would play Zerg/Terran), I don't think it is a good idea to say it was created to counter the 1-1-1. Personally, I don't see any utility for the Replicant. I find that unit to be the most stupid thing ever to be made in any RTS. So, instead of giving Protoss a new unit, they give Protoss a unit that can become other units? I mean, it's the same as saying "Sorry, Toss, your race is garbage. Why don't you try copying those Tanks? Oh, sorry, no massive for you".
I mean, come on...
As for the Arc Shield: are you serious? Since the Arc Shield ability only works against light units, a marauder drop is just as effective as it has ever been.
As for the Zerg: Muta harass WILL NOT be stopped by the Arc Shield. Mutas are SO HARD TO DEAL WITH as Protoss, that Blizzard has added the Tempest solely for dealing with them. It's not like TvP and PvP come down to Air Battles, right?
Anyway, as sad as I am because of the new Protoss units, I find it hard to complain before actually playing the game. So I say this thread is pretty wrong.
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On October 27 2011 01:51 Micket wrote:
If you are being outmacroed, or you got behind early on in e game. For example, It is almost impossible to defeat Protoss warp gate timings if you got slightly behind early. (eg you 10 pool it does nothing and he 4 gates).
If you just mass stalker colossus or mmm, your opponent will never defeat is army without better composition or numbers.
Your complaint is basically that micro doesn't make strategy or macro mostly useless. Yes, if you do a weak early pressure build and do no damage, you will be notably behind someone that notices that and punishes it. It was the same in BW, you're not gonna just always survive no matter what as long as you can micro any unit, otherwise decisionmaking is useless. If you 4 pool in BW and do no damage and the opponent decides to attack you early to take advantage of that, you're not gonna hold it off really either, you got punished for taking a risk and losing.
And the number of games where great blink control or perfect storms or great forcefields or marine kiting allow engagements to completely change is a huge number. This isn't wc3 where all you need is hero micro to do everything, other skills do matter, and they did in BW too.
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On October 27 2011 01:49 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them. It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you. Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.
Everybody is just a wrong word, someone is always complaing. I do remmber top players gooing bat shit crazy about broodwar units and changes......those cries of lamment and hatred...especialy about dts.Nothing new here.
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On October 27 2011 01:49 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them. It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you. Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.
your not the only 1 chill lol. is it me or am i the only 14 year 1 who understand that harder work is better than qq and writing stuff to blizz??? i asked eg.incontrol a while back about it and this is what he wrote
even if the game is imbalanced all we can do is continue to work with the game itself.. unless you are d browder that is the best you can do!
and come on, the only way to know when its imbalced is that you played near PERFECT and the other did played WAY WAY less. so plz stop QQing till your gm, even if pro' struggele with something, you can lissen but dont go make your own QQ sesion until you got suport of good ppl.
i think this goes in general
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Lol, some random complaining about the possible metagame of a game that's still in alpha phase. That's really hilarious, From watching ITG and SOTG last night I can see that the pros are actually pretty excited about the units/changes over all, but they acknowledge that they are no where near balanced and will go through stages of re-balancing by the time the game released. When I see people that literally make this game their livelihood get excited about new additions/subtractions in HOTS: that gives me a lot more hope than some randoms QQing on TL all day long. You don't like it, simple, don't buy the game and stop playing SC2... problem solved, why waste energy getting frustrated and trying to manipulate your so called foresight of this expansion that isn't even possible at this stage?
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EPT
