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4713 Posts
I don't think SC 2 is going in the wrong direction, at least as far as Terran and Zergs are concerned.
The Battle Helion and Warhound make mech Terran viable probably in all match ups and it will be really exciting to see all the new possible strategies in all matches, the new counters, compositions and meta game shifts.
The Shredder is nice for positional control and fits nice with the rest of the terran arsenal, and I'll love pairing it up with tanks, bunkers and planetary fortresses.
The Viper helps the zerg in the kind of situation where it matters. Zerg only had one caster, now they have two, and this is another caster that helps with positional warfare. You can place some of those clouds to either help destroy the enemy army or force the enemy into unfavorable positions. And the Viper is also great for sniping high value targets like Colossus, Vikings and, BS etc. I feel that this ability will probably be better against Protoss because it can bypass Forcefields.
The Swarm host is awesome in the role it fulfills, besieging enemy lines, swarming the enemy with tons of expendable stuff, forcing the enemy to make mistakes.
From this point on it looks like SC 2 was going in a good direction and the Terran and Zerg are also going well. It is the protoss here that is going in the wrong direction.
I like the Oracle because it is a different take on harass. It has low survivability but it doesn't need to expose itself as much because it doesn't kill units, it also doesn't risk dying from static defense because it can shut that down as well. I like the unit.
However lets not kid ourselves, the Replicator won't make it out of beta, it is a balancing nightmare from all points of view, and we all know it, and it also doesn't fit the protoss. Protoss is too proud of their own technology and their warrior spirit to be reduced to such a low level as to copy enemy units, and even when they started running low on healthy protoss they build strong machines of war like Colossus.
Dusting Browder talked about the Replicator in an interview and he already was talking about putting restrictions on the Replicator so it can't replicate SCVs, and Drones, which is a fair point since it would be broken. He also mentioned not wanting to Replicator to be used on Energy units, which is again interesting. And in his own words he said that when a unit has so many restrictions will not make it live.
The point of the Replicator is, it has infinite potential, it can become anything and fit into any composition in millions of ways we can't even think of. You can't balance infinite potential with 200/200, you need a cost to match. You also get into stupid scenarios where people are either try to not make a certain unit, which Blizz said they don't want, or you get into a even more stupid scenario where you become super defensive and try to snipe obs so your enemy can't copy units.
Also, because of balacing problems it will either become completely useless or broken, it won't be possible to balance it.
The Tempest however disappoints me most. Not because it is a big, boring mass aoe, a move unit, but because Blizz didn't bother to try and fix the carrier, one of the most iconic units of SC, and just decided to axe it in favor of this.
And now when I do talk about the tempest, yes it probably does help in the niche situation where mass air becomes a problem, but it doesn't detract from the fact it is incredibly expensive, very hard to get to and is still a boring a move unit.
I would have preferred to rework the Carrier in a way to fit the role of the Tempest, or rework the phoenix so it can fulfill the the mass anti-air role and then re-work the Carrier to fulfill another role in the Protoss arsenal, oh and reduce the damn build time already.
I feel like Protoss have been going haywire ever since WoL beta, the combination of FF + WG forced the protoss army to be weak and the replicator is trying to fix the problem in a wrong way.
If protoss GW units where strong to begin with the 1/1/1 wouldn't be so strong that it could outright kill the Protoss, but because of the design you can't make GW units any stronger.
I really feel like the Protoss needs to be reworked a lot and then new units be considered.
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It is way too early to get too upset over things imo. For all we know the replicator might change into a unit for 40 seconds before returning to its replicator state. Now trying to retain your replicator numbers could be huge and cause interesting strategies. Just don't lose them to zerglings like you guys like to do with your sentry's 
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I think you could put very many design decisions in a nutshell if you know both wc3 and BW - blizz tries to make sc2 be exactly in the middle of these games
spellcasters, one-basing, "ball"-style of play reminds of wc3, macro reminds of BW...though the mechanics itself are wc3-ish (mbs, etc.)
although protoss definitely gets more and more behind with 3 units that all serve a very specific role
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On October 26 2011 18:34 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:22 Carryz wrote:On October 26 2011 17:58 Snorkle wrote:On October 26 2011 17:47 Carryz wrote:Before I even get into my post, I'd just like to address how funny forums work. It gives people the chance to sit around and share their opinions. It sounds great until you have your bronze-diamond level player trying to voice their opinions. Of course it's hard for opinions to be wrong but in this case... PLEASE kindly shut the fuck up. + Show Spoiler [ranting] +It's mind boggling and REALLY hard to hold back flaming when you see such low level players talking like they know what they're talking about. Not only that, but to call an actual pro-player an idiot? Seriously? ROFL. There's a reason why he's a professional player and you're sitting there trying to figure out how to get out of the platinum league.
News flash: Most of you lower level players think you know more than you actually do. Just because you're able to follow the GSL and listen to what Tastosis says does NOT mean you have even the slightest idea of what's going on in the game if you were just spectating and analyzing it yourself. And it's astounding to me that it's these people that feel the need to chime in with their terribly and simply put, WRONG opinion.
The whole point is that their IDEA of these new units are so flawed and just so horribly designed that it needs to be complained about now before it even has a chance to make it into the beta.
If everyone went along with the dumb fuck idea of, "Oh, it's only in alpha. Just wait until it's finally released before you pass judgment," the game would be in shambles because of the imbalances and general discontent from the pro players. When a professional player gives his opinion, it's worth a lot more than your bronze level knowledge of the game.
With that in mind, I find it very hard to disagree with TT1 unless like I mentioned before, you really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
A lot of the new units and specifically spell caster units are gimmicky. There's no other way to explain it. It's obvious that Blizzard is finding influence from WoW. Every potential new spell has a huge similarity to its WoW counterpart. The Viper's grip-like pull? Death Grip. Pulling your own friendly units back? Leap of Faith. Replica? The same retarded move that Death Knights have that copy the opponent's spells.
As cringing as it is comparing SC2 to WoW, you cannot deny that some of the new spells are disturbingly close mirrors of the spells in WoW. They're gimmicky spells that will just simply dumb down SC2, and that not even mentioning the new fail-safe abilities on the Nexus. SC2 isn't going to be the micro-intensive fights that you would see in BW. It's better off being called Spellcraft at this rate. It's bad enough that a few EMPs in a battle can potentially end the game. Now they're adding more spells that will outright fuck the game. Your main point is that the almighty TT1's opinion is the consensus of all pro players and infallible. Guess what, TT1 isn't the only pro in the world and others have differing opinions. If the game is broken for top level play guess what happens? Tournaments keep using WoL. Blizzard already stated they don't care if tournaments keep playing WoL so like I said if its terrible broken we just won't play it. My main point is that a pro gamer's opinion is a thousand times more valuable than your average TL poster. And I guarantee that the majority of pro gamers feel the same way about the new units. If you don't see the new units as gimmicky and has no place in SC2, then just move right along and disregard my post. You just don't understand. A professional giving his feedback on what he has seen is what exactly Blizzard needs. The SC2 scene isn't based on low level play where the players are shitting themselves over having "cool" spells. So when someone of his stature actually takes their time to write a long post like that, it's invaluable. Also brilliant idea to just stick with WoL for tourney play if HotS does end up in shambles. Instead of giving Blizzard criticism now so they have more time to brainstorm better ideas, we'll just fall back on letting them do whatever and if it fails, at least we'll have WoL to play! Brilliant business model and a great future for HotS. lol. a fringe progamer getting on a high horse about balance is hardly worth anything to be honest. And any current player is going to be hopelessly biased towards their own race anyways. Tonight's State of the Game was a great opportunity to hear educated, high-level starcraft minds discuss the new additions. And it was hardly an OMG END OF THE WORLD consensus that so many people here want to believe it is. Listening to Artosis and Tyler discuss the new units in the context of how they add complexity and reward skill and strategic thinking means a billion times more than listening to TT1 ramble about how muta harass is somehow dead and the world of SC2 will be forever ruined.
I said right before the SOTG to someone that Artosis would pretty much obviously be positive about the units no matter what they were. You realize he has a stake in game succeeding right? Even in his casting he's over-hyping and exaggerated like every other caster is constantly; it's hilarious to hear 'amazing harass' or something for someone moving a banshee into a mineral line.
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The Replicant and its ability is the biggest joke of an unit design I have ever seen, how lazy and incompetent do you have to be to make something like that exist?
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On October 26 2011 20:02 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
it feels like each unit that were getting is extremely role oriented I didn't read anything else in to the but this, so I may be of topic. I totally agree that in SC2 there are WAY too many units that have a very specific role, whereas in BW, there were no such units. there was no I'm-specifically-there-to-harass-early-game-Reaper (etc.) unit.
They overall increased mobility and harassment options: Protoss got warp-in (warp prisms, pylons) and colossus walking over cliffs, Zerg got nydus worms and burrow movement, Terrans got the reaper, also walking over cliffs. I dunno if the reaper was just meant for early game or if it just played out not to be viable later. Maybe it's not even true that it's not viable later - the game is young and in BW, the vulture took on its very important role after years of people thinking it's useless if I remember correctly.
I think it's a great idea to add mobility, speed and dynamic to the game and channel apm that is no longer needed to micro retarded dragoons and select buildings individually into meaningful actions like harassment and surprise attacks. I'm not sure how far that idea worked out, but as long as I see progamers a-moving their infestors with their 1 control group army into death I won't listen to anyone who suggests some kind of skill cap has already been reached.
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im actually starting to like the replicant, depending on the build-time and cost...
i kinda wish you could replicate collosus, but i guess it'd be pretty bad if you could then copy a new terran thor, or have like dual mothership (if motherships makes it back in).
it also depends on what the tech path is, and where it's built from. Because if it's from robo bay, i dont see why you'd be choosing to replicate a seige tank when you can get the immortal, especially against a 1/1/1
as the immortal would mitigate the marauder/seige push (and choosing a siege tank wouldn't do much against the banshee anyway) (and choosing the banshee may be risky with the marines (although they'd have to save a scan i guess if u banshee cloak)....
it'd be fun to see if you can replicate a hallucination and get access to stargate tech without a stargate
but yes, i think that sc2 is going in the wrong direction and it's feeling more and more like C&C
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The OP seems quite biased when talking about the protoss units. The devs said themselves that the tempest is supposed to be a viable unit to mass produce, not just build a couple to counter mutas. Just from the top of my head i'd imagine that getting a good tempest volley on a terrans medivac clump would prove to be very very damaging.
Oracles used to shut down production or mining while the enemy moves out might prove to be good too. Kinda feels like this thread would be considered trash if it wasn't for TT1 posting the OP instead of someone unknown.
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Can't believe the OP can make statements about this stuff in pre beta...
You have no idea how fast burrowed banelings will move, if they go pretty slow then using overlord drops would be faster, plus a protoss army with an observer (any protoss army) would easily spot the banelings coming, especially when they see them crawl under forcefields.
As for Arc Shield that's 25 nexus energy wasted to not attack one area for 20 seconds (if you don't want to take any damage - alternatively you could just kill the freaking building with the turret on it) so it really isn't the end of the world to go to another area (even in the same base!) then come back after they've wasted that nexus energy.
Finally... "vastly different?"
I feel you're believing the Blizzard videos a little too much, the warhound/hellion example worked great in the video with single siege tanks and three clumps of marines but when the hell does a player set up like that? I cannot see main army compositions vastly changing but a few of these units will no doubt be added in... the OP seems a complete overreaction
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How can there be a discussion when there are so many people who not only don't recognize the current superiority of BW, but also think that the game is really good already?
It's not that SC2 has to be inherently worse than BW, it's that they intentionally made it worse with bullshit like marauders and colossus.
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On October 27 2011 00:51 architecture wrote:
How can there be a discussion when there are so many people who not only don't recognize the current superiority of BW, but also think that the game is really good already?
It's not that SC2 has to be inherently worse than BW, it's that they intentionally made it worse with bullshit like marauders and colossus.
its quite funny that pretty much every units that was new to Sc2 is pretty much worse and the cause of major problems in at least one of the match-ups, while the old BW units that have been ported in are ok.
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I agree with this. I hate the idea of a race like protoss wanting to replicate other races technology. They feel like they appreciate purity and that kind of stuff. Mind controlling is much different and in bw it was mainly used against other protoss (talking about single player).
Then again I remember being really critical about so many of the things blizzard have announced in the past It feels like it might be fine in the end.
For example I remember when I first learned that TFT would have buildable shops, god I hated that idea but it worked out well imo.
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SC2 is going exactly in the right direction. People nowadays will always complain. The whole micro aspect of BW is dead, get over it. It was a byproduct of the game engine. People complain about lack of spell casters, defenders advantage, and positional units... Blizzard adds all that... and people complain more. It's ridiculous.
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On October 26 2011 11:44 Tektos wrote:
I respect your opinion but I disagree, I like the direction SC2 is heading.
me too!
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Right, the player that has a timer on their desk should be at an advantage, fuck blizzard!
I'm not sure if the game will get 'easier' with the new expansion, but I do know that no pros currently have come close to reaching the game's skill ceiling. Always seems strange whining about "easy" things that no one can do perfectly...
As for the replicant not belonging in SC2... just because you can think of a single purpose that probably won't even exist in the metagame doesn't mean that's the sole idea behind it. Mind control abilities were in SC1 and WC3... blog please.
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I've felt like from the very beginning that the main issue with SC2 was the fact that it felt like so many units and abilities were designed to be used in a certain way. A very pigeonholed way. There was very little I could creatively do with a unit, or a combination of units, that didn't feel intuitive.
Tempest is a good example of this. It's big, slow and hard hitting. It fulfills a very particular niche of gameplay because of it's cost and AtA AOE. Go hog wild and theory craft. What can I do with it that's creative in anyway? Got nothing? Me neither.
Furthermore, aspects of the game that were creative, rare and interesting, they got rid of. Archon Toilet. Gone. WTF. Huge potential to change games, very high tension, interesting. Gone.
Baneling drops from OL's during engagements. Gone (essentially). We have burrow now which nullifies FF's. GL with that P.
Just pisses me off.
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On October 27 2011 01:03 oxxo wrote:
SC2 is going exactly in the right direction. People nowadays will always complain. The whole micro aspect of BW is dead, get over it. It was a byproduct of the game engine. People complain about lack of spell casters, defenders advantage, and positional units... Blizzard adds all that... and people complain more. It's ridiculous.
The micro aspect of BW isn't dead, it's very much alive and the same skills definitely still apply to any RTS game right now.
Saying it was a byproduct of the game engine doesn't take anything away from how good it was, it's just a matter-of-fact statement.
People complain about everything, but what you're doing is completely misinterpreting the OP's argument.
I really hate saying this and I hope I'm wrong, but sometimes I feel like the success attributed to Dustin Browder is more likely a result of luck of circumstances than knowledge.
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On October 26 2011 12:22 iaguz wrote:
I wish I had an archive of threads from 13 years ago complaining about the new units added to Broodwar. It could look like this:
"Lurker is a dumb name, doesn't sound Zerg at all! It should be the Spiderlisk."
"Disruption web looks so pointless, Corsair is so gimmicky. Should remove this unit imo."
"Why no love for the Scout unit?"
"Oh, thanks for putting Valkyries in the game, that just shuts down mutalisks so hard! Why bother making this unit now! Fucking blizzard can't design for shit"
"A PERMANENTLY invisible unit that 1 shots workers, requires no upgrade to do so and comes from the same tech as psi storm? Explain how protoss lose now kk."
"Stim Marines are gonna be so op with medics supporting then ><"
Or they could've complained about Spawning Pools being 150 minerals.
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May need an official replicant hate thread, lol. I know everyone has said this already, but I absolutely hate the idea of it. That is all.
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Tempest will also be good against clumps of vikings. Hell, a lategame Colossi/Tempest composition would own. This is pure theorycraft, though, I don't see that being viable AT ALL.
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EPT
