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SC2 is heading in the wrong direction - Page 22

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[]Phase[]
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium927 Posts
October 26 2011 17:20 GMT
#421
OWYEAH lets make another thread about a game that isn't coming out for a couple of months, and blizz said themselves they are still balancing stuff.
Hattori_Hanzo
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore1229 Posts
October 26 2011 17:24 GMT
#422
I like replicator. The Protoss numbers were decimated and lost their home world. How else could they adapt? Entire clans and technology were wiped out in an instant. (events of Sc1 and BW)

The replicator is very DTish, why innovate when you can steal?
Besides given how advanced technologically the Protoss are, they probably had replicators in civilian use for some eons. So they made a military version. I'm okay with this.

The oracle on the other hand... If it was a Protoss ship instead of a glowing ball, I could see it being the navigator clan of Protoss... Or something.
Cauterize the area
GDbushido
Profile Joined March 2011
United States926 Posts
October 26 2011 17:27 GMT
#423
On October 27 2011 02:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I like replicator. The Protoss numbers were decimated and lost their home world. How else could they adapt? Entire clans and technology were wiped out in an instant. (events of Sc1 and BW)

The replicator is very DTish, why innovate when you can steal?
Besides given how advanced technologically the Protoss are, they probably had replicators in civilian use for some eons. So they made a military version. I'm okay with this.

The oracle on the other hand... If it was a Protoss ship instead of a glowing ball, I could see it being the navigator clan of Protoss... Or something.
lore is fluff. gameplay is the only thing that matters.
remember not to think too much and your trip will be numbingly pleasant
galivet
Profile Joined February 2011
288 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 17:29:20
October 26 2011 17:27 GMT
#424
On October 27 2011 02:18 alexey350 wrote:
Lol, some random complaining about the possible metagame of a game that's still in alpha phase. That's really hilarious, From watching ITG and SOTG last night I can see that the pros are actually pretty excited about the units/changes over all, but they acknowledge that they are no where near balanced and will go through stages of re-balancing by the time the game released. When I see people that literally make this game their livelihood get excited about new additions/subtractions in HOTS: that gives me a lot more hope than some randoms QQing on TL all day long. You don't like it, simple, don't buy the game and stop playing SC2... problem solved, why waste energy getting frustrated and trying to manipulate your so called foresight of this expansion that isn't even possible at this stage?


I guess you didn't realize that the OP, TT1, is a progamer himself. Might want to check your facts next time before you leap in with some thread-shitting flame post. Hope you get banned, along with everyone else who tried to criticize TT1 as if he's some platinum scrub whose opinion doesn't matter.
urdak
Profile Joined December 2010
Russian Federation89 Posts
October 26 2011 17:27 GMT
#425
Nothing is final. Every unit that was shown has a big chance of being changed/removed. Don't panic. Yet.
ckcornflake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States53 Posts
October 26 2011 17:27 GMT
#426
I don't understand the OP of this thread. You're not saying the replicant isn't OP or UP, just that "it isn't what starcraft is all about." What does that even mean? What you think Stracraft "should be" isn't what everyone else thinks Starcraft "should be." It almost comes across as "Blizzard isn't making the game *I* want, therefore they are bad game designers."

A game designer's main goal when adding new units should be to make the game balanced and fun for as many people as possible. Now with that in mind, I think the replicant MIGHT achieve these goals. Yes, it looks like it will do a good job with the certain strategies that currently exist in the metagame. But that doesn't mean that it's a bubble gum fix, and there aren't other uses for it that we haven't seen yet. It definitely seems like it will be hard to balance (but not like the Mothership, which I believe is impossible to balance across all skill levels). But if it is balanced in a way that we see it's utility in all matchups, it will be really fun for Protoss players to expirement with all the possible synergies. It could be a great addition if Blizzard finds a way to balance it. I think they will find out after enough testing whether this unit really is capable of being balanced or not. So if it's really as bad as some people fear, it won't make the cut.
fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 17:29:55
October 26 2011 17:27 GMT
#427
On October 27 2011 02:08 sabas123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 01:49 Chill wrote:
On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.

It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.

Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.

your not the only 1 chill lol. is it me or am i the only 14 year 1 who understand that harder work is better than qq and writing stuff to blizz??? i asked eg.incontrol a while back about it and this is what he wrote

even if the game is imbalanced all we can do is continue to work with the game itself.. unless you are d browder that is the best you can do!

and come on, the only way to know when its imbalced is that you played near PERFECT and the other did played WAY WAY less. so plz stop QQing till your gm, even if pro' struggele with something, you can lissen but dont go make your own QQ sesion until you got suport of good ppl.

i think this goes in general

this might be true for BW where the rules are set into stone because people knew there won't be a patch and for sure no expansion.

but this is such a wrong way to approach a BETA of a yet to release EXPANSION. in the wings of liberty beta there were plenty of great posts on this site that changed the way blizzard balanced the game. the post of lalush introduced moving shot for phoenixes as an example (though this was not exactly what he suggested )
the community has great ideas sometimes and opinions of pros should be always welcome.
thatsundowner
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada312 Posts
October 26 2011 17:28 GMT
#428
On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.

It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.


How much of the rules of the game changing has to do with the constant whining about balance, though?
"you're gonna fail" in latin
Aneon
Profile Joined November 2010
14 Posts
October 26 2011 17:29 GMT
#429
It's true that the protoss death ball will likely become weaker, at least against zerg that will now have vipers and faster hydras. However, this has also been one of the most common OP complaints in SC2, that colossi and the protoss death ball are just too strong. It's not unusual to hear people whine about how protoss can just a-move into the enemy base and always win, especially in lower leagues and in PvZ.

Some state that pro-level PvT late game is better balanced, as terrans can counter colossi with vikings. In HotS, terrans get some alternative mech units, which I think will help players in the lower leagues who lack the viking micro and always get owned by colossi. On higher levels, these units will hopefully just lead to alternative tech paths and more varied games without underpowering the protoss main units, as long as they can be countered with the correct unit composition (e.g. immortals).

In PvZ, protoss will be forced to start harassing and make heavy use of the oracle, as they can no longer rely as much on a frontal death ball push. I don't see this as a bad thing, especially as many have complained that protoss need less apm/strategic decisions than the other races. Rather, I think it'll start forcing protoss players to use heavier micro and more harass, which will lead to more interesting games.

TvZ late game will be very interesting, although I sincerely hope that the stronger zerg late game will also indirectly make it easier for zerg in the early game.

My main concerns are some balancing issues with the shredder and the replicator, although I'm not too worried about the replicator. If they keep it, it'll likely be too expensive to be used in greater numbers, and would most likely be used strategically for early defense or harass. However, I'm a bit worried about the loss of the overseer, as zerg lose a very important early scouting unit, and they're so dependant on early scouting.
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
October 26 2011 17:30 GMT
#430
as bad as this post is TT1, I kind have to agree lol. Replicant is complete trash.

But I mean, did we really expect SC2 to be all that we want? THe company is entirely diff since SC1 to SC2, for not good reasons. :-/
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
October 26 2011 17:31 GMT
#431
On October 27 2011 01:49 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 01:37 Condor Hero wrote:
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote:
Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.

It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.

Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.


give the game its expansions and some stability and hopefully we will see that.
There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
October 26 2011 17:35 GMT
#432
Your 100% right. They are making good decisions by adding shredder and warhound to buff mech, and with the new z units which are just great. They don't give me the impression of knowing what they want toss to play like. I really hope they replace the replicant and change the design of the oracle by a lot, otherwise I'm sorry but there's no way they will work (don't start about making statements before playing hots, get over it the toss units suck)
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
October 26 2011 17:37 GMT
#433
The replicator takes away all that is unique to each race. Its not starcraft-esque and hsould be removed. Its a stupid concept and completely unoriginal...they call it a friggin replicator for christ sake>< But in all seriousness i feel like they ran out of ideas and couldn't think of anything else. Why not put in the dark archon as a new spellcaster? Protoss only has 2 casters ;( cmon now
TL+ Member
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
October 26 2011 17:39 GMT
#434
On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.

Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.

So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community)


This should be a stickied post at the top of every HotS discussion thread. There are so many people claiming we should wait until beta to even criticise the new units.

Too many times, Blizzard has not received enough negative feedback, and thought: "oh, it must be a good idea then", and stuck with it.

Example: LAN. Browder's reasoning now for not having it ever is "well, we didn't have it when WoL came out, and it would be too big a change now".

Example: Colossus. Everybody played with it in Beta and thought: "what a senseless A-move unit", but people waited to see too long before complaining about it, so Blizzard got it into the actual game.

Example: Roach/Marauder/Immortal. All very durable, slower, low tech, ranged units that somehow made the final cut, the Roach kicking aside the Hydra, the Marauder making bio favoured over mech, and the Immortal designed only as a counter to other units (Roaches, Marauders, Tanks).

I would say the only remotely successful one of these is the Immortal, because they can't form the bulk of your army. Yet this is the only one Blizzard has criticised, saying that the Hardened Shield mechanic wasn't as interesting as they hoped.
Hattori_Hanzo
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 17:46:30
October 26 2011 17:43 GMT
#435
On October 27 2011 02:27 GDbushido wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 02:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I like replicator. The Protoss numbers were decimated and lost their home world. How else could they adapt? Entire clans and technology were wiped out in an instant. (events of Sc1 and BW)

The replicator is very DTish, why innovate when you can steal?
Besides given how advanced technologically the Protoss are, they probably had replicators in civilian use for some eons. So they made a military version. I'm okay with this.

The oracle on the other hand... If it was a Protoss ship instead of a glowing ball, I could see it being the navigator clan of Protoss... Or something.
lore is fluff. gameplay is the only thing that matters.


I was addressing the OP's lore statement that replicators didn't fit into the race. I'm saying it does.
Replicators balance just fine, they have one up over DA's Mind Control is that goingo robo hatch/CC FE is actually possible and a feasible BO. The problem is actually holding the expansion as any sane opponent will try to force the cancel on the expansion, which IMO is easier for Terran as sniping the replicated SCV means construction's halted and another 200/200 replicator has to be made. Just this meta game knowledge means that reaper FEs will be compulsory vs Protoss.
Edit: English
Cauterize the area
Medzo
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States627 Posts
October 26 2011 17:44 GMT
#436
Disagree on everything in OP besides the replicator. I really dont like the replicator. My biggest concern is that it will be awkward to watch. Every game the casters will have to 'explain' the replicator to all the starcraft noobs watching.
Kireak
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden358 Posts
October 26 2011 17:48 GMT
#437
So sad that protoss didnt get any "real" army unit. Sucks.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 17:50:20
October 26 2011 17:50 GMT
#438
People trying to compare Replicator to DA need to realize the replicator exists to turn into another races unit and nothing more. DA is a spellcaster unit that had a variety of very powerful situational spells. They are nothing alike. Personally I am torn, I don't know if Replicator is stupid or just the laziest attempt at balance ever.
Mindflow
Profile Joined November 2010
Korea (South)320 Posts
October 26 2011 17:54 GMT
#439
HotS is going to shoot sc down if the proper specifications are not corrected.
Vapaach
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland994 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 18:00:01
October 26 2011 17:56 GMT
#440
Burrowed banelings movement = I think this is completely okay, as this will just people bring detection with them if facing banelings. It will alter the metagame and make some army compositions (such as heavy sentries) not so great, but still there will be ways to deal with it.

Arc shield = I have trouble understanding why this was added. It just allows easy defense from drops/mutas for the cost of energy, and possible some gimmicky cheese plays. I feel like this change is unnecessary.

Replicant = I am not sure what to think of this. I can't help but feel that it is a VERY gimmicky unit, and that it's use is mostly situational as the effectiviness relies on the opponent's army composition and it is very hard to make replicants a solid part of your game plan. I might be wrong about this though.

Oracle and Tempest = Cool, why not!

Replicant = Please, give protoss something more consistent and reliable.

I would also like to add that mass recall for 75 energy from nexus is completely ludicrous just as a concept, and the concept needs to be revamped or dropped completely from the game. Just look at what people did with just that 1 recall from the mothership. You can snipe a base and there is very little the opponent can do to prevent it. Now imagine you can do that way earlier and way more often with a significantly smaller investment/commitment. See the problem?

Just my 5 cents anyway.
If you never try you never know. Sase - Mana - TLO - WhiteRa - Naniwa - Sheth - HuK
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