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I think TT1 has a point, tho I don't necessarily agree with all of what he said. I was talking to a friend about it today and we both agreed that we wish Blizzard took the same approach to tweaking Protoss as they appear to have done to Terran and Zerg. They were quite clear at Blizzcon that the Battle Hellion is meant to fix the specific problem Terran has in the lategame vs mass chargelots, and the Wahound is meant to fix the specific problem of fending off mutalisks while also solving the specific problem of dealing with mech.
The Viper gives Zerg a way to engage entrenched positions (tho goes overboard imo) and deal with "heavy-hitters) in death-ball armies. The Swarm Host attempts to solve the Zerg problem of zone control (why is this not the lurker, Blizzard? For the love...).
The changes to Protoss (except the Tempest perhaps) do not seem to have followed this same sort of, "here's a problem, let's fix it" logic. The Oracle is allegedly for Protoss scouting and harassment, but these roles are adequately filled already by existing Protoss units (blink, DTs, observers, phoenixes, warp prisms). The Replicant goes overboard by plugging every hole in the Protoss army in a single unit, and is the lazy developer's way of adding a unit to the game without actually having to design a new unit. At least the Tempest fills a role against late-game mass muta, but this too is a role that one could easily argue is also already filled by phoenices, archons, and storm.
I really am worried about the changes they are making to Protoss in particular because I think they are fundamentally game-changing in such a fashion as to kill strategic thinking rather than promote it. Mass recall on the Nexus means Protoss wins every base race scenario, and never has to worry about counter attacks. Arc shield makes early aggression trivial and stops drops and muta harassment cold, especially combined with the existing warp-in mechanic. These sorts of changes make the game LESS interesting because they reduce the amount of decisions players have to make regarding strategy and make the reduce the risk-reward aspect of the game to uninteresting levels.
EDIT: As a tangential side note, I would gladly trade burrow tech on banelings altogether for lurkers.  Why Blizzard? WHY!?
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You have a point now that I think about it, I don't watch much BW but I saw Fantasy vs JangBi and yes it does focus a lot on micro, and I agree with the fact that many P units come only in specific situations, but I wouldn't say that SC2 is heading in a wrong direction until you know how the game would turn out with all this new units.
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Why do people keep saying wait until beta?
Here is what Protoss got:
A unit that does nothing but turn into existing units = not a new unit.
A beefy corsair that replaces the current best unit in the protoss arsenal that never really got any love in the a.i. + buff department unlike its terran counterpart.
And a harass unit (measured by how effective they are at killing workers. Period.) as Tyler said, the counter to this will be the same as phoenix harass; expand again.
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Why does everyone keep saying wait for the beta? How many units were added/removed in WoL beta? As far as I know not a single one. They changed some abilities and stats around but units as a whole weren't... Now is the best time for community to show whether or not they like the DESIGN of the new units (he isn't whining about stats but the design) and I agree with most things he said.
Well there's going to at least be another YEAR before alpha is even released. Furthermore, they have said they plan to add more units, explicitly, and that they think they are going to change what they already added.
Also, in WOL, in alpha (which HOTS isn't even at yet btw) they removed a TON of units. Reavers, lurkers, Tempests (as 'dark templar carriers'), nomads, melee roaches, twilight archons, soul hunters, purifiers, and swarm lords were all units that existed at the same point where HOTS is today for WOL.
Also, people don't seem to understand the new Swarm Host at all. The unit is extremely worthless, in the sense it is horrible in combat. They are NOTHING like lurkers at all. They do not control space at all, you can't just have a few swarm hosts that prevent the opponent from coming through. You will never add these to your army, they are pitifully bad. What they DO do, very well, is when your opponent is turtling, especially terran, you plant a few outside their base and it just releases constant pressure. It's a great way to annoy someone who is turtling when you have a lead, and you can't just bust in.
It may also have application against the 3 base rine/tank push when they try to contain you. But it is NOT a combat unit at all, and everyone's reaction to it was "Wow this unit sucks ass in combat". It has an extremely limited role, that's very good. Every zerg knows what it's like when we are owning someone, then they turtle on 2-3 bases, and we have to play another 20 minutes because turtles are impossibly hard for us to break.
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On October 27 2011 05:47 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Why does everyone keep saying wait for the beta? How many units were added/removed in WoL beta? As far as I know not a single one. They changed some abilities and stats around but units as a whole weren't... Now is the best time for community to show whether or not they like the DESIGN of the new units (he isn't whining about stats but the design) and I agree with most things he said. Well there's going to at least be another YEAR before alpha is even released. Furthermore, they have said they plan to add more units, explicitly, and that they think they are going to change what they already added. Also, in WOL, in alpha (which HOTS isn't even at yet btw) they removed a TON of units. Reavers, lurkers, Tempests (as 'dark templar carriers'), nomads, melee roaches, twilight archons, soul hunters, purifiers, and swarm lords were all units that existed at the same point where HOTS is today for WOL.
I agree completely. The alpha/beta units for WoL kept changing, starting from Brood War and getting all the way to where they are now, with some crazy points in between.
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Edit: Holy wall of text. If you're bored I recommend just reading the last four paragraphs (new ideas); there's actually an interesting idea there, maybe.
I don't disagree in the least, the new nexus mechanics add very little to the game's potential and will likely just be a band-aid in the case of mistakes. Both need to be axed and replaced with something else, clearly.
Analysis of Protoss HOTS Units
On the topic of units, I think both the tempest and replicant won't actually make protoss more fun or interesting. Protoss seems to suffer from cool art design or things that sound cool when described, but which feel fucking awful.
Take the tempest. A unit with a big, slow aoe attack in the air isn't any more fun than the unit with the big, slow aoe attack on the ground (colossus). It's hardly an improvement on the carrier, even if it does have more of a role and sees more use, because it just isn't nearly as cool. I'm never going to see a tempest in a game and go "fuck yeah, tempests!" It's never going to give me a wow moment (ever).
The replicant is slightly different. It could definitely lead to a "wow that's cool" moment, like getting a siege tank and then it getting 20 marine kills, or something, but it would never make me happy if I played protoss. If anything, it'd make me want to switch races. Going "oh, I stole his awesome fucking swarm host and now I'm sieging him from the highground with stalker/sentry/swarmhost, this is sweet" makes me want to play zerg, not protoss. Even if it functions well it doesn't really have a good place in the game. Stealing enemy spellcasters so we can EMP battle? That's not cool, why not just alter the feedback/EMP/Snipe dynamic? No function I can see the replicant having will ever be 'fun' as I see it, even if it works, and it definitely doesn't make me think starcraft.
The oracle could actually be a cool unit, though not as it currently stands. The 'forcefield minerals' mechanic is a really interesting idea, but phasing buildings/tech out and nullifying static defense is way too good. Similarly, seeing someone's entire tech, including research, is just weird. "Oh, you threw down an evo? Well I know you're getting upgrades, but you could still be going almost anything" vs "Oh, you're researching +1 missle attacks? Well I'll stop building zealots then" is a huge difference. Similarly, seeing things like blue flame vs siege tech will let you know if/when there's a timing, which would actually take away from game sense. The entire concept is weird.
The thing is, every stargate unit is harass-focused currently (that doesn't require further tech). Adding another one without taking anything away (at stargate level tech) doesn't actually add anything. The fundamental problem with stargate is that, no matter how much harass you can pull off, that's all you can possibly do. A zerg never goes "oh shit, he killed 12 drones, now I might not have the eco to hold off the carrier timing". vT he might think "Oh shit, I lost 10 drones to cloaked banshee and have 0 map control, what if he's doing a marine/medivac/tank timing" but against protoss he just knows that stargate did nothing to add to the strength of a push. During the entire harass window his response is "make more drones".
New Ideas
It's a weird dynamic. Currently the stargate never actually sets back zerg eco because it inherently weakens any possible push following. Beyond a few gimmicky voidray/zealot/sentry pushes there's no actual attacks involving stargate units.
So what's actually missing isn't another harass unit. It's a stable army unit. Instead of focusing on weakening the 'protoss deathball', why not add alternatives to it? The void ray has almost no application beyond all-ins/harass outside of the death ball; why not cut it for a real air unit?
Imagine a world where protoss goes stargate/robotics and doesn't build a colossus; instead he gets a warp prism, a few of this 'sturdy air unit', some immortals, some zealots and sentries/stalkers. That's his army composition. He can poke/prod all over the map, and even push if he sees a window. He can expand behind it. He can play like a fucking 'starcraft' protoss (BW). Imagine that.
Fuck the deathball. Fuck void rays and colossus; they're both boring as shit. Glass cannons aren't interesting, even if you put a wall in between them and the opponent (stalkers). Give a real alternative, and maybe people will actually like watching protoss again.
Give me back the manly race.
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On October 27 2011 05:43 CellTech wrote:
Why do people keep saying wait until beta?
Here is what Protoss got:
A unit that does nothing but turn into existing units = not a new unit.
A beefy corsair that replaces the current best unit in the protoss arsenal that never really got any love in the a.i. + buff department unlike its terran counterpart.
And a harass unit (measured by how effective they are at killing workers. Period.) as Tyler said, the counter to this will be the same as phoenix harass; expand again.
Because blizz presented a very unpolished product at blizzcon? I mean they even said on the panel that it is not unlikely that they will just outright kill some of the things that we saw. Some were hardly even tested but they thought "what the hell, we show this anyway and see where it leads us". And even if the replicant make BETA, it's not even sure that it will make the end product.
I too dislike some of the things showed at blizzcon and I also dont like the design of some of the units in the game as of now, but it's pretty obvious they need to do some rather radical things and Rebalance the game to create new gameplay. I'm quite certain we'll see more and more additions and even removals of units before this even hits beta, and at that point we'll see ATLEAST alot of numbertweaking and changes made to alot of units including current ones.
I honestly dont see a need for this thread at this moment, it just have bad timing imho.
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Given that we've seen the pro's (and meta game in general) do the weirdest and most unexpected things with the current roster of units, I think speculating anything about the evolution of Starcraft is pretty silly at this point.
Trying to be smart or clever by predicting what's going to happen is a complete waste of time.
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The protoss HotS units are trash, plain and simple. we get a unit that does not belong in competitive RTS, a harassment unit that accomplishes nothing, and an OK capital ship.
this is why I'm switching to Zerg. their new units are awesome
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On October 27 2011 06:03 BoxedLunch wrote:
The protoss HotS units are trash, plain and simple. we get a unit that does not belong in competitive RTS, a harassment unit that accomplishes nothing, and an OK capital ship.
this is why I'm switching to Zerg. their new units are awesome
Why does the Replicator not belong in competitive RTS? The only reason I've seen anyone give is "because it's dumb and I don't like it".
Pretty much every RTS I can think of has a mechanic for stealing your opponent's units. The Replicator is a neat unit that creates a huge wealth of possibilities as well as resolving some existing balance issues.
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I agree with the OP. I am not in favor of this expansion to any degree, and I hope none of the changes make it into competitive play or even casual play.
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The game has yet to be released, and changes in the metagame will still occur. There was a time in BW when Terran was regarded as very underpowered. Then a man named Slayers Boxer revolutionized the gameplay of Terran and Terran has had much success in BW and SC2. As for many of the new units, there will be changes made. Overseers used to spawn infested terrans, and voidrays had flux vanes.
While there has been an emphasis on Protoss spellcasters, it remains to be seen how they will be used in pro games. Who knows, they may one day become iconic as the High Templar.
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On October 27 2011 06:25 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 06:03 BoxedLunch wrote:
The protoss HotS units are trash, plain and simple. we get a unit that does not belong in competitive RTS, a harassment unit that accomplishes nothing, and an OK capital ship.
this is why I'm switching to Zerg. their new units are awesome Why does the Replicator not belong in competitive RTS? The only reason I've seen anyone give is "because it's dumb and I don't like it". Pretty much every RTS I can think of has a mechanic for stealing your opponent's units. The Replicator is a neat unit that creates a huge wealth of possibilities as well as resolving some existing balance issues.
It doesn't fix any balance issues or add anything to protoss. It adds a huge amount of opportunity for things, but for it to be balanced the opportunity can never be effective (ie. it must never be cost effective). It's just stupidly situational and likely won't even be used in 80% of games.
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Other than the replicant, which I think is terrible, terrible design and should be removed, I'm willing to give everything a shot. Like for example, the tempest, which looks useless to me at the moment, could be made better or more cost-effective and then it'd start to excite me.
Also, keep the carriers in the game, even if you have to (lol) nerf them. I mean, how much work would it take to put the carrier back in as a bw throwback that we can use as a victory cigar?
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On October 27 2011 02:44 Medzo wrote:
Disagree on everything in OP besides the replicator. I really dont like the replicator. My biggest concern is that it will be awkward to watch. Every game the casters will have to 'explain' the replicator to all the starcraft noobs watching.
"It's a Protoss unit that can permanently turn into any non-massive unit it can see."
Gee, that was hard.
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Take the tempest. A unit with a big, slow aoe attack in the air isn't any more fun than the unit with the big, slow aoe attack on the ground (colossus). It's hardly an improvement on the carrier, even if it does have more of a role and sees more use, because it just isn't nearly as cool. I'm never going to see a tempest in a game and go "fuck yeah, tempests!" It's never going to give me a wow moment (ever).
As someone who played the Tempest, I can tell you it's really fucking badass, and everyone else who played it - balance issues aside - said the unit was the most fun unit ever. Of course, they explicitly put it on the show floor as completely OP just for concept, but it was fun.
. Even if it functions well it doesn't really have a good place in the game. Stealing enemy spellcasters so we can EMP battle? That's not cool, why not just alter the feedback/EMP/Snipe dynamic? No function I can see the replicant having will ever be 'fun' as I see it, even if it works, and it definitely doesn't make me think starcraft.
Replicant is just to give protoss more strategies. That's it. If someone even comes up with a single new strat for it, like replicating a dropship to heal zealots, then it's worth it. Every new unit had a reason, the replicant was created to help with the problem of protoss not having enough strategies.
The oracle could actually be a cool unit, though not as it currently stands. The 'forcefield minerals' mechanic is a really interesting idea, but phasing buildings/tech out and nullifying static defense is way too good. Similarly, seeing someone's entire tech, including research, is just weird. "Oh, you threw down an evo? Well I know you're getting upgrades, but you could still be going almost anything" vs "Oh, you're researching +1 missle attacks? Well I'll stop building zealots then" is a huge difference. Similarly, seeing things like blue flame vs siege tech will let you know if/when there's a timing, which would actually take away from game sense. The entire concept is weird.
Dude, we aren't even near alpha yet, and WOL JUST got balanced recently. Quit discussing balance, so damn annoying.
The thing is, every stargate unit is harass-focused currently (that doesn't require further tech). Adding another one without taking anything away (at stargate level tech) doesn't actually add anything. The fundamental problem with stargate is that, no matter how much harass you can pull off, that's all you can possibly do. A zerg never goes "oh shit, he killed 12 drones, now I might not have the eco to hold off the carrier timing". vT he might think "Oh shit, I lost 10 drones to cloaked banshee and have 0 map control, what if he's doing a marine/medivac/tank timing" but against protoss he just knows that stargate did nothing to add to the strength of a push. During the entire harass window his response is "make more drones".
um void rays do a ton to add to the strength of an army, and the new Oracle is supposed to solve this problem as well, as it's supposed to be a relatively cheap harass unit that is usable all game long, unlike, say, banshees when eventually the opponent throws up enough static D, or reapers when the opponent gets an army going. Now, with stargate, you can make the oracle and just harass all game long. It also has great scouting utility so you can perfectly counter the opponent with your push (or your defense against his push), and delay him so you can get an expo up.
It's a weird dynamic. Currently the stargate never actually sets back zerg eco because it inherently weakens any possible push following. Beyond a few gimmicky voidray/zealot/sentry pushes there's no actual attacks involving stargate units.
Maybe you should stop playing protoss as "open X into 2 BASE ALL IN YEAAAA" and think of it as "open pressure, secure expansion, pressure again, secure expansion". Terran understand that the 2 base timing push is bad play, protoss should understand it too. There's no 2 base push that zerg or terran can do that is 'good play', so it shouldn't be a revelation that 2 base protoss pushes are bad too.
The protoss HotS units are trash, plain and simple. we get a unit that does not belong in competitive RTS, a harassment unit that accomplishes nothing, and an OK capital ship.
this is why I'm switching to Zerg. their new units are awesome
I can assure you that the swarm host is quite useless. All Zerg got was the viper, extremely slow (yet of course undeniably awesome) support caster that's quite expensive. Protoss definitely got the best of HOTS, with the new nexus abilities and their new units, trust me.
Swarm host is pretty useless. It fills a niche role of pressuring a turtle on 2 bases when you have a huge lead as zerg. Which is an extremely useful role, don't get me wrong, there are so many games I play where it's 30+ minutes and the opponent just mines out his 2 bases and a-moves, and it's really obnoxious. So i LOVE the swarm host, but it's a completely unnecessary unit and in it's current form not useful in a back and forth competitive game. It will never win a game for you, it will just secure a win sooner that you already had.
Pretty much every RTS I can think of has a mechanic for stealing your opponent's units. The Replicator is a neat unit that creates a huge wealth of possibilities as well as resolving some existing balance issues.
Replicator is not about balance, we already know that Protoss is pretty well balanced right now (except in KR GM, which is being addressed with emp nerf anyways in both hots and patch 1.4.2). It's about giving new strats to protoss, to be creative with. It's the new warp prism, that's all.
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I agree with the fact that starcraft 2 centers around spellcasters a bit too much. A few EMPs or storms can end the game right there, even if the loser had been ahead for quite long. It's quite sad. I do like the EMP change, however.
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If replicant will force sc2 into a macro-only game, then I T-Down this unit. I belive SC2 has to have place for both 1/1/1 and 1 rax expand builds.
Hum, don't forget that terran also have new units, which means 1/1/1 will be different. New TvT mech is stronger than old TvT mech, the new mech-warrior unit is strong versus siege tanks. You will not copy a siege tank and be safe versus a 1/1/1.
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TT1 had a lot of good points, but I wouldn't expect everything Blizzard intoduced at Blizzcon to go live, especially the Protoss stuff. Also, although I disagree with his gripe with the in-game timer, that is just a small nitpick as a lot of the other stuff was spot on. Granted, BW will never be like SC2 if only because of improvements in programming technology, but I just don't see anything in SC2 that truly separates the noobs from the masters, that vividly shows just how puny the commoners are compared to the pros AND allows the pros to use their skills in the coolest ways possible. I'm talking about the units like the reaver that not only highlighted the skill differential, but also allowed pros to use their talent to the best of their abilities. I really wish SC2 had that emphasis on micro, or at least more of it than it does now, instead of just macro and decision-making.
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EPT
