On October 27 2011 02:44 Medzo wrote: Disagree on everything in OP besides the replicator. I really dont like the replicator. My biggest concern is that it will be awkward to watch. Every game the casters will have to 'explain' the replicator to all the starcraft noobs watching.
I think it's wonderful. Because it is summed up in one sentence, a unit copying unit except on massive units. Then they'll go into the possible application of it given its high cost: 1. Tech up 2. Clutch counter, replicate their banshees, infestors, etc. 3. Bolster current unit numbers to directly counter opponent's army. E.g. Move out with normal unit comp + 4 replicators. See that opponent had tech switched to Colossi, replicate their Colossi which yours has range upgrades and suddenly turn the battle. Or replicate your own Zealot for replicated Zealots have charge researched because you went blink stalkers.
Totally agree... Blizzard is messing up one of their best games. It's not true, but they give the impression that they don't have a single clue of what the hell they're doing... viper, shredder,wtf?
I feel like you are speculating about possible game changes when Browder already said that many of the units may be changed drastically or even removed.
On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote: Nal_rA: "wat does cute lil thing do?" Huge Nal_rA fanboy(aka me): "uhhhhhhh well kangmin hyung there was a certain build in sc2 that had a 90% winrate in tvp so blizzard decided to make a unit that allowed p users to copy a tank in order to defend it" Nal_rA: "LOL"
I agree with this idea of "fixing" 1-1-1 being absurd. thats pretty much it though.
On October 26 2011 18:48 Merlimoo wrote: Is it just because it is different than SC1 ? Did anybody say after BW release that is does not belong to SC because it is not like SC....0 ?!? mmm what ?? If starcraft 2 was called skywar 1, would it be okay to have a game like that ?
The philosophy of Starcraft is to have 3 very different races - as opposed to something like Age of Empires which has numerous races with small differences. The replicant goes against this, melding Terran and Zerg with Protoss. Protoss would no longer be unique - they would just steal the best of all worlds. The balancing would be a nightmare also, for this reason.
protoss has the most advanced technology of the 3 races and the replicant actually fits in with their lore. having the ability to copy a single unit for 200 gas in no way threatens a melding of the races anymore than neural parasite.
Neural and replicant are worlds apart. Neural steals a unit within range 7 for a short period. Replicant copies a unit permanently, and allows infinite more copies of it. So you could make an entire army of infestor/colossus/viper or templar/ghost/tank or such things. None of these armies would be Protoss armies anymore, thus diluting the unique nature of each race.
How are they not Protoss armies? Replicants are too expensive to be used a lot, so you can't just build anything with them. You have to use them on something that will be strong in small numbers (like 1 or 2). Cloaked Banshees, Ravens. I wouldn't even think Ghosts would be a good target, and Siege Tanks are right out; you'd need too many Replicants to make that worthwhile. Protoss need that gas for other stuff too. Also, to get a unit, the enemy has to make that unit. If a Terran doesn't go Mesh, you're not getting a Siege Tank.
Also, do we have confirmation that a Replicant can replicate other Replicant units? Or even units on your side?
Replicant is for being able to take a couple of enemy weapons and turn them against them. It's for giving Protoss a bit of flexibility, and it works as a way of saying, "You'd better think twice about that Cloaked Banshee, unless you want me to have 3 of them in your base." Giving Protoss a splash of other races does not mean that they aren't still Protoss.
Or protoss would be the race that can adapt at the last seconds, like warpgate allows to do. I agree it's not sc1 protoss, it is sc2 protoss.
It is too expensive to ever be used like this - you would be rolled by simple, cheap units like marine/marauder. But it has to be expensive or you'll copy a million ghosts/infestors.
It's a nightmare to balance, and an icky design that dilutes the uniqueness of the race. It should go.
Know what else is hard to balance? Siege Tanks.
They do high single-target damage. They have AoE, to deal with groups of low-Hp units. And they have ludicrous range, so the number of Siege Tanks that can be firing at any one target is gigantic compared to most other ranged units.
The only weaknesses of ST are that they can't shoot up and they can't move when they're in awesome mode. Their mere presence fundamentally alters how the game is played.
And yet people would have screamed bloody murder if their precious Siege Tanks had been cut from SC2.
Just because something is hard to balance doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile to have a shot at it. I'm sure the SC1 developers probably wanted to give up on STs at some point, but they persevered.
On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote: My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community)
This should be a stickied post at the top of every HotS discussion thread. There are so many people claiming we should wait until beta to even criticise the new units.
Too many times, Blizzard has not received enough negative feedback, and thought: "oh, it must be a good idea then", and stuck with it.
Example: LAN. Browder's reasoning now for not having it ever is "well, we didn't have it when WoL came out, and it would be too big a change now".
Example: Colossus. Everybody played with it in Beta and thought: "what a senseless A-move unit", but people waited to see too long before complaining about it, so Blizzard got it into the actual game.
Example: Roach/Marauder/Immortal. All very durable, slower, low tech, ranged units that somehow made the final cut, the Roach kicking aside the Hydra, the Marauder making bio favoured over mech, and the Immortal designed only as a counter to other units (Roaches, Marauders, Tanks).
I would say the only remotely successful one of these is the Immortal, because they can't form the bulk of your army. Yet this is the only one Blizzard has criticised, saying that the Hardened Shield mechanic wasn't as interesting as they hoped.
You seem to think that complaints actually get things done. People cried bloody murder over LAN; the complaining about it now is nothing compared to when it was first announced. People were saying that no LAN would kill the game competitively.
And yet despite all the complaining, we didn't get LAN.
The Colossus was not going to be removed. Ever. The original Colossus didn't even have AoE; that was bootstrapped in later. You could get every progamer on the planet bitching about Colossi, and it would have changed nothing.
The Marauder is the only thing that makes Marines and Bio in general useful outside of TvZ. And it's clear that Blizzard wants Bio to be useful outside of TvZ (and I wholeheartedly agree). No amount of complaining would change that.
The Roach and the Immortal were units that sort of became something else. Roaches weren't supposed to have high Hp; they were supposed to survive based on fast regen. But in balancing them, they went with high Hp over regen. Again, like the Colossus, Blizzard would rather change the unit that cut them. So complaints would have been meaningless.
If Blizzard sets their mind to something, complaints generally aren't going to get something done.
On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote: My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community)
This should be a stickied post at the top of every HotS discussion thread. There are so many people claiming we should wait until beta to even criticise the new units.
Too many times, Blizzard has not received enough negative feedback, and thought: "oh, it must be a good idea then", and stuck with it.
Example: LAN. Browder's reasoning now for not having it ever is "well, we didn't have it when WoL came out, and it would be too big a change now".
Example: Colossus. Everybody played with it in Beta and thought: "what a senseless A-move unit", but people waited to see too long before complaining about it, so Blizzard got it into the actual game.
Example: Roach/Marauder/Immortal. All very durable, slower, low tech, ranged units that somehow made the final cut, the Roach kicking aside the Hydra, the Marauder making bio favoured over mech, and the Immortal designed only as a counter to other units (Roaches, Marauders, Tanks).
I would say the only remotely successful one of these is the Immortal, because they can't form the bulk of your army. Yet this is the only one Blizzard has criticised, saying that the Hardened Shield mechanic wasn't as interesting as they hoped.
You seem to think that complaints actually get things done. People cried bloody murder over LAN; the complaining about it now is nothing compared to when it was first announced. People were saying that no LAN would kill the game competitively.
And yet despite all the complaining, we didn't get LAN.
The Colossus was not going to be removed. Ever. The original Colossus didn't even have AoE; that was bootstrapped in later. You could get every progamer on the planet bitching about Colossi, and it would have changed nothing.
The Marauder is the only thing that makes Marines and Bio in general useful outside of TvZ. And it's clear that Blizzard wants Bio to be useful outside of TvZ (and I wholeheartedly agree). No amount of complaining would change thatmeaningle.
The Roach and the Immortal were units that sort of became something else. Roaches weren't supposed to have high Hp; they were supposed to survive based on fast regen. But in balancing them, they went with high Hp over regen. Again, like the Colossus, Blizzard would rather change the unit that cut them. So complaints would have been ss.
If Blizzard sets their mind to something, complaints generally aren't going to get something done.
are you a blizzard employee or how can you make such bold statements? how do YOU know they NEVER EVER change or remove a unit if it's requested by a majority of the community? you don't and blizzard DID change units based on feedback in the beta making your statement worthless. moving shot or smaller thors where things achieved by the community as short examples. even if they still didn't bring back the lurker yet because there ego is too big (baseless assumption by myself here).
blizzard probably knows they're going against what the majority of what bw players want, they're not going to change their own philosophy regarding sc2 for anyone's sake.
i can't say for sc2 but protoss is definitely headed the wrong direction.
swarmy for zerg, versitile for terran are correct in everyone's mind. protoss is suppose to be about brute strength but sc2 has made them into spell dependent race, which i fucking despise more than anything. sentry, describe the whole race, not zealot.
the fact that they made no plans for colossus pisses me off. that is such a shit unit, even worse than mothership. again, they're not going to change it though because its "COOL, it can walk up cliff, long range aoe and it can be hit by both air and ground, that makes it unique and it is here to stay regardless of what anyone says."
I remember Blizzard saying the replicant was there to add strategic options, not to help defend against one base attacks. No offense, but I'm not taking anyone's opinion seriously on the new units (especially if its someone who doesn't do well in tournaments) while they haven't been battle tested yet.
Seriously, when I see replicant I feel its potential is far greater outside of defending 1 base attacks. I also disagree with Protoss unit designs being more role oriented than the other races.
Starcraft needs more units like the replicant, which reward on the fly skill and creativity rather than players being completely mechanical.
I personally welcome the changes proposed for heart of the swarm, sure maybe some of the unit stats/values might be off, but the general ideas behind them are amazing and give great potiential to the game as an esport , since alot of these ideas will create super instense AWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE moments , Which is something Sc2 is lacking compared to broodwar..
In broodwar when a protoss reaver dropped /killed all your scvs did the terran complain of balance or say i need to play better?
In broodwar did zergs complain that their zerglins could not counter attack for shit with vultures on the battlefield? No they did not, they improved there games, If shredders rip your zerglins apart, maybe use roaches first to clear them or focus your strategys around ultralisks instead late game? ( espeically since ultralisks got buffed crazily)
Instead of writing off the game and saying the direction is horrible.. Why not save your opinion when the game is in our hands for play testing.
Like for instance, i play terran, and i welcome the burrow moving baneling change.. I know in the current WOL it would be overpowered ,but in HOTS? whos to say that will truely be OP, Shredders and strategys involving pure mech with faster ravens might have something to say about that..
Again, i love the direction HOTS is going, Less balls vs balls for me personally = a good thing.
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote: Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
best post in the thread, by far though i do agree the replicator is a stupid unit, as is the colossus, we are wasting our time complaining while we could be getting better at the game and beat what is "imba"
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote: Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
It's a lot harder to do when you see the rules of the game changing around you.
Fair. My comment wasn't even a realistic expectation, just that I miss those days.
I think we will get there once again, but not until SC2 is out of the development phase (which will likely be about 2 years after LOTV is released).
We will have 10 years to master the game before SC3 comes out
Protoss needs a core tier 1/1.5 unit and not 3 more high tech units. Protoss tier 3 is extremely well rounded once you have the economy to support it, but 1/1.5 loses on efficiency by a huge margin compared to the other races.
On October 27 2011 01:27 Chill wrote: Offtopic, but I miss the days when everybody put their heads down and tried to be the best instead of trying to change the rules of the game. Some still do, and I really respect them.
There's been quite a few people saying this for some time now and hopefully this sentiment spreads.
Dark archon? It did basically the same thing, but better.
You have no clue how fast the burrowed banelings are going to be. They might be as slow as burrowed roaches and thus die to colossus before ever reaching their target. The arc shield is a shittier version of A CANNON. It may help supplement muta defense, but it's not going to stop mutas from fucking up your base unless you waste every point of nexus energy doing so, which puts you behind.
On October 27 2011 04:51 Drowsy wrote: Protoss needs a core tier 1/1.5 unit and not 3 more high tech units. Protoss tier 3 is extremely well rounded once you have the economy to support it, but 1/1.5 loses on efficiency by a huge margin compared to the other races.
This is the only broken part of Protoss honestly. The problem is that warp gate makes it impossible to balance a strong T1/1.5 unit. If they removed WG and made stalkers/zealots a bit stronger without blink (especially against T) and around the same strength with blink, Protoss would be much better off.
Honestly people need to stop theorycrafting and QQing about stuff they don't know much about.
A game that follows what the community wants is a game that don’t try new things, that stays within a comfort range, that just replicate and combine things from successful games that were released in the genre. I want SC2 and it’s expansions to push the boundaries of our expectations, make us step out of our comfort zone, and that is not afraid to go beyond the BW nostalgia and push towards innovation. I really liked to hear Artosis toughts on the new units (on SOTG) because he really seemed genuinely interested in the innovatives strategies that these units could bring to the game, and how it could play differently instead of “blabla imba, blabla not enough like BW, blabla Blizzard suck”.
EPT
though i do agree the replicator is a stupid unit, as is the colossus, we are wasting our time complaining while we could be getting better at the game and beat what is "imba" 
