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On October 27 2011 08:44 Gorguts wrote:
People just need to accept the fact that SC2 will never be as good as Broodwar.
because Blizzard doesn't care to make it better. They've already accomplished their goal, SC2 is immensely popular. They are content with Ball vs Ball instant death in sc2 forever.
lol
User was warned for this post
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On October 27 2011 06:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 03:29 NicolBolas wrote:On October 27 2011 02:39 SeaSwift wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) This should be a stickied post at the top of every HotS discussion thread. There are so many people claiming we should wait until beta to even criticise the new units. Too many times, Blizzard has not received enough negative feedback, and thought: "oh, it must be a good idea then", and stuck with it. Example: LAN. Browder's reasoning now for not having it ever is "well, we didn't have it when WoL came out, and it would be too big a change now". Example: Colossus. Everybody played with it in Beta and thought: "what a senseless A-move unit", but people waited to see too long before complaining about it, so Blizzard got it into the actual game. Example: Roach/Marauder/Immortal. All very durable, slower, low tech, ranged units that somehow made the final cut, the Roach kicking aside the Hydra, the Marauder making bio favoured over mech, and the Immortal designed only as a counter to other units (Roaches, Marauders, Tanks). I would say the only remotely successful one of these is the Immortal, because they can't form the bulk of your army. Yet this is the only one Blizzard has criticised, saying that the Hardened Shield mechanic wasn't as interesting as they hoped. You seem to think that complaints actually get things done. People cried bloody murder over LAN; the complaining about it now is nothing compared to when it was first announced. People were saying that no LAN would kill the game competitively. And yet despite all the complaining, we didn't get LAN. The Colossus was not going to be removed. Ever. The original Colossus didn't even have AoE; that was bootstrapped in later. You could get every progamer on the planet bitching about Colossi, and it would have changed nothing. The Marauder is the only thing that makes Marines and Bio in general useful outside of TvZ. And it's clear that Blizzard wants Bio to be useful outside of TvZ (and I wholeheartedly agree). No amount of complaining would change that. The Roach and the Immortal were units that sort of became something else. Roaches weren't supposed to have high Hp; they were supposed to survive based on fast regen. But in balancing them, they went with high Hp over regen. Again, like the Colossus, Blizzard would rather change the unit that cut them. So complaints would have been meaningless. If Blizzard sets their mind to something, complaints generally aren't going to get something done. I'm sorry, I don't usually nitpick, but you claiming bio is useful in TvZ kinda steals your credibility.
Marine Medivac with a bit of tank support is pretty much the TvZ standard, you even see pure Marine Medivac sometimes at the pro level. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
What I've come to conclude from this thread is that a lot of people are really dumb. Almost all the analogies or comparisons to BW are completely false ("in BW there were no single-purpose units", "there are too many upgrades/spellcasters in SC2 compared to BW"), most predictions are completely absurd ("marines won't be used in Heart of the Swarm"), and the only real complaint I've seen is that the Replicator is too versatile. Isn't that something everyone has complained about, how Protoss is too linear and predictable compared to the others?
Honestly, with a few minor changes (save the Carrier PLEASE!), HotS is looking to be an excellent expansion to an amazing sequel of an awesome game.
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On October 26 2011 11:34 TT1 wrote:
SORRY ABOUT THE WALL OF TEXT;;
im pretty sure that one of the main reasons why they created it was so that protoss could hard counter 1basing terran's
Watlol.
I agree to some extent of the rest of your post. They're adding units that are too fixed into a role. But the replicant is definitely not one of them, it could be the most versatile unit ever. Since when did we all agree that it was put in the game to stop 1-1-1?
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Who's TT1?
Is he a progamer or somewhat important person?
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On October 27 2011 08:58 Dazer wrote:
Who's TT1?
Is he a progamer or somewhat important person?
Well known brood war player.
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I have heard of this TT1 fellow
However, you are not the person Blizzard is going to try and appease. The masses are the moneymakers, and anything that can ease the gameplay experience, reduce the apm requirements, and make the game simpler, is going to be what blizz decides to implement.
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I like the direction SC2 is heading. Not sure what your post was getting at.
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Not to be rude, but this was the worst written, worst thought out opinion of HOTS I've read yet, let alone one written by a player that I like.
Shame on you, TT1. burrow move banelings aren't any more dangerous than unburrowed banelings with an observer. Overlord drops will still be the most effective way to get banelings to connect with protoss balls, let alone with worker lines.
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not to be rude but ur awful at this game and the direction youd like to take it in would make the game abysmal. learn to play, how about that? Or you could keep making yourself look like a whiny nobody, which you basically are
gl hf
User was banned for this post.
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On October 27 2011 08:35 shmoo wrote:
I see less casters than BW.
Sentry - force field, guardian shield, hallucinate
Well you may say, those are just the Protoss units you are looking at, well the op from TT1 is obviously slanted towards Protoss, but I will cover Zerg anyway, since Terran are not really getting any casters.
Infestor - Infested Terran, Fungal Growth, Neural parasite
So please show me where all these spell casters are coming from and how they are killing micro and removing decision making.
As far as seeing less casters than in BW, one can only conclude that you didn't every play/watch BW.
Sentries, Infestors and Ghosts are units that appear in the early-mid game and have nothing comparable in brood war. You could suggest that Infestors are like defilers, but that would only further demonstrate you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Further, sentries and infestors have abilities that limit micro, there's nothing like this in brood war.
... somehow you also missed the replicator, but that's not a spellcaster right?
I could go on, but what purpose would it serve?
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On October 27 2011 09:09 1nMack1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:35 shmoo wrote:
I see less casters than BW.
Sentry - force field, guardian shield, hallucinate
Well you may say, those are just the Protoss units you are looking at, well the op from TT1 is obviously slanted towards Protoss, but I will cover Zerg anyway, since Terran are not really getting any casters.
Infestor - Infested Terran, Fungal Growth, Neural parasite
So please show me where all these spell casters are coming from and how they are killing micro and removing decision making.
As far as seeing less casters than in BW, one can only conclude that you didn't every play/watch BW. Sentries, Infestors and Ghosts are units that appear in the early-mid game and have nothing comparable in brood war. You could suggest that Infestors are like defilers, but that would only further demonstrate you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Further, sentries and infestors have abilities that limit micro, there's nothing like this in brood war.... somehow you also missed the replicator, but that's not a spellcaster right? I could go on, but what purpose would it serve?
Another bullshit comparison to Brood War that is completely false.
Statis Field, Ensnare, Maelstrom...? There are plenty of abilities that limit micro.
You also can't do anything to micro against spells like Plague, EMP or Irradiate, once they hit they will do full damage, and the EMP projectile is only a little slower than in SC2. Just like in SC2, the only thing you can do against spells like that is preemptively split your forces.
As for spellcasters appearing earlier in the game, that's somewhat true. There's no equivalent to the Sentry, but it's the only spellcaster that really shows up early. High Templar usually appear in the midgame PvZ, sooner than you would get them in SC2. I wouldn't really count Medics as spellcasters, but they obviously show up quite soon as well. So what's the big deal about spellcasters appearing slightly earlier in the game?
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On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC
Why not? Dark Archons had Mind Control in SC1.
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On October 27 2011 09:13 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:09 1nMack1 wrote:On October 27 2011 08:35 shmoo wrote:
I see less casters than BW.
Sentry - force field, guardian shield, hallucinate
Well you may say, those are just the Protoss units you are looking at, well the op from TT1 is obviously slanted towards Protoss, but I will cover Zerg anyway, since Terran are not really getting any casters.
Infestor - Infested Terran, Fungal Growth, Neural parasite
So please show me where all these spell casters are coming from and how they are killing micro and removing decision making.
As far as seeing less casters than in BW, one can only conclude that you didn't every play/watch BW. Sentries, Infestors and Ghosts are units that appear in the early-mid game and have nothing comparable in brood war. You could suggest that Infestors are like defilers, but that would only further demonstrate you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Further, sentries and infestors have abilities that limit micro, there's nothing like this in brood war.... somehow you also missed the replicator, but that's not a spellcaster right? I could go on, but what purpose would it serve? Another bullshit comparison to Brood War that is completely false. Statis Field, Ensnare, Maelstrom...? There are plenty of abilities that limit micro. You also can't do anything to micro against spells like Plague, EMP or Irradiate, once they hit they will do full damage, and the EMP projectile is only a little slower than in SC2. Just like in SC2, the only thing you can do against spells like that is preemptively split your forces.
Ensnare and Fungal are hugely different - you can still move your stuff under ensnare.
Stasis is also questionable because the bulk of its use is shutting down stationary units (tanks), after they've already been positioned (or while they're being positioned, if T is caught off guard). Therefore, there is still a good deal of ability to micro against it - far more than a mobile army vs fungal. You could also micro against stasised units to break ramp blocks.
Maelstrom's a fair comparison, except that it almost never got used for other reasons.
On October 27 2011 09:20 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC Why not? Dark Archons had Mind Control in SC1.
Yeah, and look how much it got used. It was a gimmick ability. Largely because of its major costs, to be fair. Situations where it was used: on massive, key units, or because of the fact it denied a unit from your opponent, and thus gave you a relative advantage. Except for that one GGPlay vs Stork game.
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On October 27 2011 09:03 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:58 Dazer wrote:
Who's TT1?
Is he a progamer or somewhat important person? Well known brood war player.
well known for map hack,yeah.
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Blizzard just want to show you guys SOMETHING instead of showing you guys nothing. At this point in time, those units and changes were in there blueprint just like different units were weeks ago and in the following months their blueprints will change.
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On October 27 2011 09:21 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:13 Alzadar wrote:On October 27 2011 09:09 1nMack1 wrote:On October 27 2011 08:35 shmoo wrote:
I see less casters than BW.
Sentry - force field, guardian shield, hallucinate
Well you may say, those are just the Protoss units you are looking at, well the op from TT1 is obviously slanted towards Protoss, but I will cover Zerg anyway, since Terran are not really getting any casters.
Infestor - Infested Terran, Fungal Growth, Neural parasite
So please show me where all these spell casters are coming from and how they are killing micro and removing decision making.
As far as seeing less casters than in BW, one can only conclude that you didn't every play/watch BW. Sentries, Infestors and Ghosts are units that appear in the early-mid game and have nothing comparable in brood war. You could suggest that Infestors are like defilers, but that would only further demonstrate you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Further, sentries and infestors have abilities that limit micro, there's nothing like this in brood war.... somehow you also missed the replicator, but that's not a spellcaster right? I could go on, but what purpose would it serve? Another bullshit comparison to Brood War that is completely false. Statis Field, Ensnare, Maelstrom...? There are plenty of abilities that limit micro. You also can't do anything to micro against spells like Plague, EMP or Irradiate, once they hit they will do full damage, and the EMP projectile is only a little slower than in SC2. Just like in SC2, the only thing you can do against spells like that is preemptively split your forces. Ensnare and Fungal are hugely different - you can still move your stuff under ensnare. Stasis is also questionable because the bulk of its use is shutting down stationary units (tanks), after they've already been positioned (or while they're being positioned, if T is caught off guard). Therefore, there is still a good deal of ability to micro against it - far more than a mobile army vs fungal. You could also micro against stasised units to break ramp blocks. Maelstrom's a fair comparison, except that it almost never got used for other reasons. Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:20 TedJustice wrote:On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC Why not? Dark Archons had Mind Control in SC1. Yeah, and look how much it got used. It was a gimmick ability.
Ensnare is certainly different from Fungal, but they aren't all that off. Fungal roots a unit for 4 seconds - Ensnare slows them massively for a good 25 seconds, and also reduces attack speed. It's a giant concussive shell that lasts 10 times as long, basically.
I can see what you mean about Stasis, but it's still an unavoidable spell that you can do nothing to mitigate once it's cast.
Maelstrom was certainly a niche spell, but it's so powerful when it is pulled out of a player's sleeve. Jangbi used it in the OSL semi-finals, can't remember against who (some scrubby Zerg, obviously). 
I think Mind Control is stronger than you give it credit, the mere threat of it basically denies capital ship usage in PvP and PvT. It isn't used because people are too afraid of it to make the units it would be useful against.
On that note: people complain about the Colossus being too strong and clamor for the Reaver. They seem to forget that the very POSSIBILITY of a Protoss making Reavers made Marines completely nonviable in BW TvP.
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On October 27 2011 09:28 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:21 Dfgj wrote:On October 27 2011 09:13 Alzadar wrote:On October 27 2011 09:09 1nMack1 wrote:On October 27 2011 08:35 shmoo wrote:
I see less casters than BW.
Sentry - force field, guardian shield, hallucinate
Well you may say, those are just the Protoss units you are looking at, well the op from TT1 is obviously slanted towards Protoss, but I will cover Zerg anyway, since Terran are not really getting any casters.
Infestor - Infested Terran, Fungal Growth, Neural parasite
So please show me where all these spell casters are coming from and how they are killing micro and removing decision making.
As far as seeing less casters than in BW, one can only conclude that you didn't every play/watch BW. Sentries, Infestors and Ghosts are units that appear in the early-mid game and have nothing comparable in brood war. You could suggest that Infestors are like defilers, but that would only further demonstrate you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Further, sentries and infestors have abilities that limit micro, there's nothing like this in brood war.... somehow you also missed the replicator, but that's not a spellcaster right? I could go on, but what purpose would it serve? Another bullshit comparison to Brood War that is completely false. Statis Field, Ensnare, Maelstrom...? There are plenty of abilities that limit micro. You also can't do anything to micro against spells like Plague, EMP or Irradiate, once they hit they will do full damage, and the EMP projectile is only a little slower than in SC2. Just like in SC2, the only thing you can do against spells like that is preemptively split your forces. Ensnare and Fungal are hugely different - you can still move your stuff under ensnare. Stasis is also questionable because the bulk of its use is shutting down stationary units (tanks), after they've already been positioned (or while they're being positioned, if T is caught off guard). Therefore, there is still a good deal of ability to micro against it - far more than a mobile army vs fungal. You could also micro against stasised units to break ramp blocks. Maelstrom's a fair comparison, except that it almost never got used for other reasons. On October 27 2011 09:20 TedJustice wrote:On October 26 2011 11:45 TT1 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:43 Silidons wrote:
i don't care if the replicant is OP as shit. it's a fuckign stupid ass design and does not belong in the starcraft universe. i will NOT use it under ANY circumstances. just like i am slowly doing this with the colossus. fucking retarded units that i don't enjoy using whatsoever. exactly, im not arguing whether or not its OP or UP.. its function as a unit does not belong in SC Why not? Dark Archons had Mind Control in SC1. Yeah, and look how much it got used. It was a gimmick ability. Ensnare is certainly different from Fungal, but they aren't all that off. Fungal roots a unit for 4 seconds - Ensnare slows them massively for a good 25 seconds, and also reduces attack speed. It's a giant concussive shell that lasts 10 times as long, basically. I can see what you mean about Stasis, but it's still an unavoidable spell that you can do nothing to mitigate once it's cast. Maelstrom was certainly a niche spell, but it's so powerful when it is pulled out of a player's sleeve. Jangbi used it in the OSL semi-finals, can't remember against who (some scrubby Zerg, obviously).
I think a big difference about ensnare is that once it's cast, the battle isn't defined. You can still retreat to let it wear off, or spread units to engage, or apply some sort of thought to the situation - the defending player has options. Fungal prevents any form of mitigation once it's down, which is a major problem for micro-based armies (ie: most vZ games), but less so for positional-based armies. I draw the distinction there because that's why I think BW stasis wasn't quite as problematic despite the longer duration. Not that it was bad :p
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I changed my mind about the replicator. I think it has potential, but in a way that is very hard to balance. A unit design like the oracle allows for a lot of leeway in tweaking its strength, so that Blizzard is always able to get the unit right. The replicator can be so powerful - even just one - that how hard it is to balance becomes important right away. We can't just wave away any possible imbalance in this test version, because it is in fact very hard and perhaps impossible to get right. If it's impossible to control its situational extraordinary power, we know it will be nerfed so it's impossible to use in regular circumstances. (i.e. it will be balanced for having protoss have ravens to add to the death ball)
Another issue is being able to turn into an SCV so easily. I honestly don't want protoss players to start to have to learn terran, just because now their race is designed to slowly morph into a protoss/terran hybrid come midgame. I know Dustin Browder (and he is right) does not like units with too complex descriptions and qualifications, so it's already tricky to outright forbid workers to be replicated. I honestly like taking over workers as a mechanic, just not as a standard option every game. Maybe like once every ten late game scenarios.
If I might venture a suggestion, I can think of two fixes that might get the replicant in a better place for further tweaking. (for instance, changing its supply or cost are excellent ways to balance it, as long as there aren't any fairly frequent situations where no matter what the cost, unless insanely prohibitive, it's always a good idea to have a replicant available. And I like using them for a variety of clever and tricky plays, I'm mostly referring to having certain casters for the death ball.)
1. Force the replicant to be in ~15-20 range of the unit it morphs into. Why? Because being able to turtle and send an observer into your enemy base to perfectly 'craft' your own death ball is silly and you should have to take some risk to use the replicant. It doesn't need to be 10 range, it needs not put them in supreme danger so that it can only be used during a battle. But you should have to take some risk.
2. Add an upgrade to the robotics bay that lets it take over certain disabled units. I know this isn't what Blizzard want, but I think that having an upgrade that removes the constraints is more transparant than outright disabling it.
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This wasn't too well worded, but i DEFINITELY agree with what you're saying about removing standard unit mechanics and placing it with spellcasters
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your Country52798 Posts
On October 27 2011 09:21 cklrkzk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:03 grobo wrote:On October 27 2011 08:58 Dazer wrote:
Who's TT1?
Is he a progamer or somewhat important person? Well known brood war player. well known for map hack,yeah.
Let's not go into that.
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EPT
