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On November 21 2011 12:53 Nizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 12:46 TT1 wrote:On November 21 2011 07:12 Bill Murray wrote:
TT1,
what are your thoughts on micro in SC2 vs SC1?
- I'd like to note I've seen you win off of a 4 probe rush opening vs an opponent who would probably beat me
Do you feel that the way units clump in SC2 in and of itself lend to them having to make "cute" units for protoss to balance away from protoss players who simply 1a? Do you feel the imperfection of the SC1 A.I.ended up being a good thing for micro?
well yea its no secret, everyone knows that unit pathing is one of the main issues in sc2(makes the game much easier to master, unlike sc1 where the simple act of moving ur units correctly required skill and practice) but blizzard has already stated that they wernt going to do anything about it honestly at this point i think were in too deep to do anything about the unit pathing but boy would it be fun if blizzard ever decided to remove mbs or autocast : D I think a large part of it, is the mass-multi selection of units. BW was 12, now in SC2 you can hotkey 200/200 armies at 1. What do you think about that?
nope you can't, atleast last time i tryed it didn't worked with with mass lings (should be 160 units maximum or something  ). And i wouldn't mind the bw pathing ~.~ , was way easier to keep damaged units in the back. In sc2 they are in the front line in a few seconds and you have to micro them again, pulling something back is also a horror compared to bw. So i actually find the sc2 pathing as challenging as the bw pathing . I have less problems in bw though, but i am more used to it i guess, taking the things as giving you have to watch out for in sc2, but sc2 also has a few things that basically happen automatically.
A different difficult isn't really there. The aoe/ranged/melee units are pretty much balanced around the pathing in both games.
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On November 21 2011 13:09 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:05 Purupururin wrote:
Yeah I agree.
The gap between a great player and the worlds bests shrunk quite a bit in WoL. (Just think back to the old scene)
I'm worried down the road the good player isn't going to be too far behind a great one. weve already reached that point :-), dont get me wrong i love watching foreigners own koreans but who says we wernt capable of doing that in sc1? if we were given the same practice environment as them who knows wat we could have accomplished
hexatron?
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IMO there needs to be a more broad design "look" at the game as we have it today.
For example Dustin Browder/David Kim probably needs to really take a huge step back and re-evaluate each race once again.
I think many complaints haven't quite been resolved in WoL:
- Zerg doesn't have that true "swarm" feel, due to fewer "2 for 1" units such as the zergling. Cheaper, expendable units by design, but vulnerable to chokes and forcefields
- Protoss high-quality but expensive, fewer units design is not quite panning out and many a player has complained time and time again how weak gateway units are compared to everything else at lower tiers, all but forcing toss to fearfully defend via sentries until they finally reach mid-tier tech and finally push out, which does not feel "protoss-like".
- Terran middle of the road, but seems to have too much flexibility early-mid game, but dubious late game. OP marines remain one of the biggest complaints against terran even today, and will probably remain the biggest complaint unless something drastic changes.
I don't have all the answers but I do really hope that DB/DK really step back a bit more and really think things over more carefully and address things. As for you TT1, maybe you don't feel that a Warcraft 3 style game with lots of spellcasters is the way to go. Personally I wouldn't mind more casters to mix up the variety a bit more and see more styles emerge, more "special tactics" from whitera, etc.
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On November 21 2011 13:24 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:09 TT1 wrote:On November 21 2011 13:05 Purupururin wrote:
Yeah I agree.
The gap between a great player and the worlds bests shrunk quite a bit in WoL. (Just think back to the old scene)
I'm worried down the road the good player isn't going to be too far behind a great one. weve already reached that point :-), dont get me wrong i love watching foreigners own koreans but who says we wernt capable of doing that in sc1? if we were given the same practice environment as them who knows wat we could have accomplished this comment pretty much contradicts itself . First you say we have reached that point where you like watching the top level koreans get owned by some foreigners. Then on the same token you think foreigners will have a chance in starcraft 1 based on what facts???? you just said you "we have reached that point" , as if a foreigner beating a korean is just wrong. So you are willing to believe we will stand a chance in sc1 because of the sc2 success of the foreign players thus proving that sc2 is indeed a very skillful game.
i have no idea what your trying to say but i was actually adressing your previous post(i guess the confusion came from not quoting it) aswell
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While I completely agree that adding units in each SC2 expansion will only further the business of SC2, it will in the long run only hurt the gameplay and capabilities of players. Simply adding more units won't make it a better game.
Given the completely limited amount of units in BW, made the game simplistic and easy to watch. However, it's exactly this reason in BW which required greater skills from its players to master. SC2 doesn't need gimmicky units, the roles units have in WoL need to be further tested, and instead of adding these abilities on new units, can be given to existing units intead.
My .02 cents.
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On November 21 2011 13:35 zZygote wrote:
While I completely agree that adding units in each SC2 expansion will only further the business of SC2, it will in the long run only hurt the gameplay and capabilities of players. Simply adding more units won't make it a better game.
Given the completely limited amount of units in BW, made the game simplistic and easy to watch. However, it's exactly this reason in BW which required greater skills from its players to master. SC2 doesn't need gimmicky units, the roles units have in WoL need to be further tested, and instead of adding these abilities on new units, can be given to existing units intead.
My .02 cents.
I hate when people talk in absolute terms as if they can forecast the future , if blizzard took this stance in Starcraft 1 (pre-broodwar) then these units would have never made it.
Protoss = Crosair
= Dark templar
Zerg =Lurker
=Devourer
Terran = Valkyrie
= Medic
Tell me what starcraft 1 would have looked like if blizzard didnt take the chance to add these units to broodwar? , and yet you think same cant be said for Starcraft 2 expansions.. NONE OF WHAT YOU SAW AT BLIZZCON IS FINAL
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jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a googolquadribuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me)
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On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a quadrizillionbuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me)
Do you really think it's a big deal to end up with 1-3 more units per race than in BW?
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On November 21 2011 13:52 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a quadrizillionbuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me) Do you really think it's a big deal to end up with 1-3 more units per race than in BW?
God forbid players be presented with more decisions to make, and thus more opportunities to differentiate themselves from those with less ability.
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On November 21 2011 13:30 D_K_night wrote:
IMO there needs to be a more broad design "look" at the game as we have it today.
For example Dustin Browder/David Kim probably needs to really take a huge step back and re-evaluate each race once again.
I think many complaints haven't quite been resolved in WoL:
- Zerg doesn't have that true "swarm" feel, due to fewer "2 for 1" units such as the zergling. Cheaper, expendable units by design, but vulnerable to chokes and forcefields
- Protoss high-quality but expensive, fewer units design is not quite panning out and many a player has complained time and time again how weak gateway units are compared to everything else at lower tiers, all but forcing toss to fearfully defend via sentries until they finally reach mid-tier tech and finally push out, which does not feel "protoss-like".
- Terran middle of the road, but seems to have too much flexibility early-mid game, but dubious late game. OP marines remain one of the biggest complaints against terran even today, and will probably remain the biggest complaint unless something drastic changes.
I don't have all the answers but I do really hope that DB/DK really step back a bit more and really think things over more carefully and address things. As for you TT1, maybe you don't feel that a Warcraft 3 style game with lots of spellcasters is the way to go. Personally I wouldn't mind more casters to mix up the variety a bit more and see more styles emerge, more "special tactics" from whitera, etc.
I like your post I want to add to it:
Zerg - I agree that it doesn't really have the form of a swarm. I hate roaches so bad. They literally gave each race a dragoon. Roaches should have like 80 hp and be 1 food. This way there will be more of them on the field for a true 'swarm' feel. Take away tank's "AI" so that roaches don't get destroyed by splash this way you can actually swarm...
Protoss is a mess, sentries to me just really take away a lot of strategy/game play in positioning. 'opps I got caught in the middle of the map vs 50 lings "F,F,F,F,F" okay everythings dead...'
Terran - not disagreeing however I don't think other race players realize that going mass marine drops late in some situations is the only option Terrans have at the moment to get back into the game if behind a lot.
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On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a googolquadribuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me)
This is something that I fear too, that the game will have too many units when the both expansions are done, which would make already complex game way too much complex. Still you have to remember that blizzard might remove some unit when they make the expansion, like they are considering to with overseer and carrier. So I guess that could potentially be a redeeming factor, but it would also mean some strategies would be burned down too, which would be really sad. =/
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I agree with you TT1! We need more depth to fighting with basic units and less DPS/Value casters that simply blanket things in AOE damage. I bet not many people reading this thread remember how quick your response needed to be to Templars in BW or you would lose almost any non-protoss unit in 1 storm, yet it never felt unfair or anything like that.
I find it hard to watch/keep up with SC2 right now because how awful I personally think it is but one thing I was holding out for is the expansion and right now my feeling is its pretty much a joke. Like anything in WOL looks way better than the units they are proposing for HotS haha. All the bads who are posting in this thread seem to hold to an attitude of wait and see, but we waited through the SC2 beta and got a pretty mediocre game so I would rather Blizzard make some changes now before I am totally convinced they don't have a single intelligent person doing work on the design of the expansions haha. No troll here im just concerned.
- Ex-GM Zerg player : )
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On November 21 2011 13:52 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a quadrizillionbuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me) Do you really think it's a big deal to end up with 1-3 more units per race than in BW?
1-3? at the rate that theyre going at youd be looking at 2x more units per race
i think were already close to like 1.5x more units right now, no?
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I agree. I also believe that all the balance that they have been working on for months is going to be thrown in the trash with the release of HOTS.
The Warhound is just a Goliath...
So BUMP!
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On November 21 2011 14:27 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:52 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a quadrizillionbuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me) Do you really think it's a big deal to end up with 1-3 more units per race than in BW? 1-3? at the rate that theyre going at youd be looking at 2x more units per race i think were already close to like 1.5x more units right now, no?
No. There are the same number of units in both games.
It's wildly inaccurate ideas like that which make you feel the way you do about SC2.
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Anyone remember playing multiplayer Starcraft(NOT BROODWAR)? Look how amazing the expansion pack turned out.
Alot of you guys are not even willing to give HoTS a chance. Maybe it does turn to destroy the game on every level and suck, or maybe it adds more depth and new tactics. We do not know. What we saw at Blizzcon was a demonstration of intentionally overpowered units.
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problem is zerg does have the most cost swarmish units (roach and zling perfect example and i dont want to get into it) but those units in return are actually the hardest to micro correctly since u have more units and faster units; protoss has strong units with the lack in number but with a potential cap unlimtless, even more then terran, forcefeilds, range factor and with strong spell casters; terran is tough because basicly you can win the game with just ur micro but if you get countered you lose, so people say terran is easy but they are a lot more all in and will be a lot more all in as time goes by and as players learn to macro bases up... every race has its flaw so what imbalances are more evident when a player exploits another opponents weaknesses and it becomes extended..... Sc2 has not yet been explored fully (lol terrans dont even use ravens vs mass mutas the obvious counter) and protoss just now using phoenixs and zergs now understanding when to drone and when to produce, all races are good and the only reason this games balance is in question atm is because its so even and just look at the results~
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On November 21 2011 14:27 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:52 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 13:49 TT1 wrote:
jinixxx123 theres no need to be hostile bro, cant we just have a civilized coversation over the internet?
oh yea and if blizzard plans to add 2-3 units per race in every expansion were gonna end up with a quadrizillionbuzilion units, that would suck (dont get mad at me) Do you really think it's a big deal to end up with 1-3 more units per race than in BW? 1-3? at the rate that theyre going at youd be looking at 2x more units per race i think were already close to like 1.5x more units right now, no?
Just a quick thought, although I think you're correct about the number of units, maybe people need to be okay with "useless" units that get deemed not viable by the pros, or get made once just for scouting. With so many different builds, there's going to be builds that come close to touching a tech tree, or maybe only touch it once in this certain cool timing for this certain purpose. With a lot of different units, maybe there'll be more motivation for creativity, and will shift the popular strategies around, or most likely just change them a bit.
Although after listening to SotG ...54 I think, I'm pretty sure Destiny's brain has the capabilities to break every matchup in HOTS. I'm not a huge destiny fanboy, but he was blowing my mind with his theorycraft for the new units. He'd say the most ridiculous and/or overpowered scenarios, but then you'd poop a little when you realized that it's very possible and likely..
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On November 21 2011 13:30 D_K_night wrote:
IMO there needs to be a more broad design "look" at the game as we have it today.
For example Dustin Browder/David Kim probably needs to really take a huge step back and re-evaluate each race once again.
I think many complaints haven't quite been resolved in WoL:
- Zerg doesn't have that true "swarm" feel, due to fewer "2 for 1" units such as the zergling. Cheaper, expendable units by design, but vulnerable to chokes and forcefields
- Protoss high-quality but expensive, fewer units design is not quite panning out and many a player has complained time and time again how weak gateway units are compared to everything else at lower tiers, all but forcing toss to fearfully defend via sentries until they finally reach mid-tier tech and finally push out, which does not feel "protoss-like".
- Terran middle of the road, but seems to have too much flexibility early-mid game, but dubious late game. OP marines remain one of the biggest complaints against terran even today, and will probably remain the biggest complaint unless something drastic changes.
I don't have all the answers but I do really hope that DB/DK really step back a bit more and really think things over more carefully and address things. As for you TT1, maybe you don't feel that a Warcraft 3 style game with lots of spellcasters is the way to go. Personally I wouldn't mind more casters to mix up the variety a bit more and see more styles emerge, more "special tactics" from whitera, etc.
I agree with your thoughts here. Balance has been achieved, more or less. The issue now is improving exciting unit and race dynamics.
Zerg has no 1 supply unit really. Think about that. How much bigger could the swarms be with a tier 1, 1 supply staple unit? The roach supply tweak was a last-minute decision that hasn't really been re-examined, only because things are balanced. Why couldn't roaches be 1 supply and less HP, but maybe with buffed regen? That fits the paradigm of the real-life counterpart. Or hydras? I do have high hopes for the swarm guardian, and because they got lots of stuff right with SC2 zerg, like creep mechanics, creep drop, etc. The viper makes me nervous though, because Blizz already sees no issues with the cartooney infested terran lobbing animation and the viper is even worse. And no degree of visual tweaking will make this look believable. The tongue ability is ridiculous in both looks and concept, but at least they're considering inferior AoE spells like Dark Swarm.
With Protoss, sentries and blink are a double-edged sword requiring lower unit stats that makes them much too volatile for what is supposed to be the race of the fewest and strongest, that should have solid early game stability. Protoss gateway armies melt to MMM. Storm feels almost useless unless somehow the player can cast a dozen on 2-3 select areas. As you said, relatively weak gateway units make for a mostly boring early-midgame. Luckily, the new archons, dts, immortals, and warp prisms are very dynamic units and exciting for fans to watch.
Terran feels okay, but the insistence on bio being viable in TvT really distorts the other two matchups in my humble opinion. The marauder and concussive shells kind of throw lots of exciting potential unit dynamics out of whack and really make races feel similar at the tier 1 level. Making such a strong ability available so early, for so little money, on such a staple unit is inhibiting more exciting things. I'd rather see concussive on hellions or reapers - a speedy weak unit that requires more micro to profit from the ability.
In terms of existing dynamics that I think could be improved (which I think is a good way to approach it, in addition to fundamental race traits), I think that the Colossus is holding the place of what could be a much more exciting Robo AoE unit. Many rightly say that the Colossus/air unit dynamics are interesting, and I agree. But I'd rather see a robo unit with massive AoE firepower that can be used for harass, something that can one shot stuff. Colossus are too expensive and supply heavy relative to their attack paradigm. It's great to mix them in, but they can't deal damage in huge increments.
I also fear that Blizzard has accepted the viking/colossus paradigm based on their HotS proposals, since new protoss units were based on those paradigms.
Some of the proposals for HotS seem very half-hearted and last-minute. Ultra charge and reaper heal in particular seem very bizarre. Zealots have charge. It seems strange to give a similar ability to the melee unit of another race. I hope the game doesn't have two charge abilities, although I'm sure this one was conceived solely for the cool collision physics (I hope). The reaper change strikes me as more bizarre and a poorly thought-out band-aid. The building bonus js a great dynamic that is sure to play out in the metagame, in addition to reapers with medivacs (qxc), etc.
In conclusion, I think SC2 is going in a good direction, but it has some fundamental paradigms withholding it from being a great direction. Hopefully the lengthy expansion release timelines will catalyze some epiphanies, but skeptical posts from gamers familiar with Browder's past work have me worried, in spite of my want to hope for the best.
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It seems kind of odd people saying that is bad that the replicant was added just for the 111. While I do not like the unit in general wasn't the corsair added just because of the mutalisk back in broodwar. When BW came out I don't think mech was popular yet so I don't think they added it for the disruption web on mech I could be totally wrong but the situation seems kind of similar. And I can already think of other uses for it so it could be useful beyond the 111. Nothing is finalized I wouldn't start losing sleep over it yet. Remember BW is still out there for those who don't like the way SC2 goes no one will judge you if you switch in the end it all comes down to which game do I have more fun playing (and for the pros I guess which game can I make more money with)
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EPT
