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On October 26 2011 09:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:49 Daralii wrote:On October 26 2011 08:43 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 26 2011 08:42 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 08:35 selboN wrote:On October 26 2011 08:32 Quasimoto3000 wrote:
Haven't blizzard statistic claimed pvt was p favored ? This patch confuses me /:
no The stats say exactly the opposite, and they've acknowledge repeatedly that it's heavily terran favored at the highest levels in Korea. Yet it's heavily Protoss favored in US/EU. And if a game's being played professionally for several thousands of dollars, you shouldn't balance based on ladder. Actually, their stats suggest that it's balanced in US and EU, and they said as much at Blizzcon. So unless you're calling Blizzard liars, they believe that Protoss is struggling at top level, and that they aren't OP at lower levels. These changes look like the sort of thing that will make gameplay at the highest possible level a little bit more even between the two races, but will hardly make any difference in the slightest at lower levels.
They stated that it's "closer to 50%" with the edge still going to Terran.
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On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
Please explain how less expensive means it's stronger? It just means maybe a little faster? If they're going heavy upgrades. Which sometimes is a good idea.
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I know this is a reaction to the GSL Toss performance, but honestly I blame the players. I haven't seen impressive pro play from korean tosses lately.
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On October 26 2011 09:02 winthrop wrote:
what about psi storm?
Already been nerfed to death
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I am fine with these buffs. Although I think that the range of EMP should be nerfed instead of the radius so that high templar can more easily feedback. And no, I don't think snipe is going to get nerfed, although it is really good when massed.
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they do this AFTER I switched to Terran QQ
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On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells.
Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks.
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On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea.
What foreign Ps are tearing it up in results? HuK plays in Korea and Naniwa hasn't been to a foreign tournament in ages.
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wow insane good for protoss... pumped to try it out
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holy shit that's not right... Zerg (and T?) pay 300/300 for level 3 melee, 350/350 for armor? wtf...
great T nerf tho, emp so imbalanced in TvP.
Hopefully snipe gets nerfed for super late game TvZ, there's no way to stop mass ghosts...
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On October 26 2011 08:36 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 08:04 Whitewing wrote:
I do have to laugh about this EMP nerf to be honest.
Someone a while back made a comparison between two units and nerfs.
Unit A and Unit B are identical on all stats and upgrades, except unit A does 10 damage and unit B only does 4. Unit A is therefore overpowered, or Unit B is underpowered (let's assume the former for argument's sake). Unit A gets nerfed to only deal 8 damage, this is a significant nerf to the unit (20% damage nerf). It's still overpowered, as it's still dealing double damage compared to Unit B.
This nerf to EMP is nowhere near enough, and it's probably too strong still. It needs to either A: not deal all it's damage instanteously and be dodgeable like storm (create an energy draining field), B: deal less damage to shields, or C: Shorter range. 'Twas me, I do believe  And I'm interested in seeing if Terrans will double the number of ghosts they have because of this, or if this reduced radius will pretty much not do anything at all to TvP. Is it the wrong nerf to EMP? Should it do less damage rather than smaller radius (or both)? Same range as feedback or storm? And what about Snipe vs. Zerg? Perhaps if ghosts just started with less energy or needed to research more, that would help as well. Ghosts even counter themselves, for cryin' out loud. Regardless, I'm happy they finally got hit with the nerfbat. As a Protoss player, I'll take what I can get against ghosts. I kind of think that ghosts are one of the only enigmas left in Wings of Liberty. Sure, there may be other problems left (like inherent ultralisk pathing... sucks for Zerg players x.x but that'll hopefully get sorted out in HotS with the burrow-charge), but some things can be meta-gamed out. I think ghosts are one of the only things left in WoL that require a little patching. The comparison between unit A and B is wrong on so many levels. The races aren't identical and no unit of one race plays exactly the same role as an unit of other race. It's the same falacy like the good ol' "2 lings kill a rine, wtfbbq lings imba!"
Actually the original context of the Unit A vs. Unit B anecdote I had once made wasn't Ghost vs. High Templar or any two real units (it was, instead, a hypothetical situation showing two identical units differing only in one way- on a completely different thread- demonstrating the occasional need of careful tweaking through nerfs and buffs), and I agree with you that no two units are supposed to work exactly the same, but the point still stands that ghosts were overpowered. Hence the nerf.
The reason that my old comparison was brought up was that- even with this EMP nerf- it may be the case that ghosts might still be overpowered even though they were nerfed. The key is that they weren't nerfed *enough*.
Let me elaborate. My old anecdote went something like this:
Take two units that are completely identical in every way (speed, hp, range, etc.) except for the fact that Unit A deals 10 dps and Unit B only deals 4 dps. If we wanted to achieve a balance between these two, Unit A would have to be nerfed or Unit B would have to be buffed. Say that Unit A was nerfed so that it now deals 8 dps. It got nerfed, but it's still stronger. It still needs to be nerfed again. And say it gets nerfed down another 2 dps so it's at 6dps. Still too powerful. By now, surely those in favor of Unit A are screaming "Stop nerfing my unit! Two nerfs is ridiculous!" But yet, it's still too powerful. It needs another nerf so that both Unit A and Unit B are both attacking at 4 dps.
The point was merely that the ghost needs to be nerfed so that it's balanced. This may be the first of a few nerfs (perhaps one against Protosses with the EMP issue, and then another future one against Zergs with the snipe issue). It's not comparing two actual separate units (like why ghosts and high templar should be perfectly balanced), because the units shouldn't be perfectly analogous. It certainly can't be obtained with spellcasters.
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No, emp was meh, now it sucks.
WOW. WUT.
I'm glad Blizzard doesn't take balance advice from random forum people.
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On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks.
Don't stand in the fire bro(storm).
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On October 26 2011 09:07 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea. What foreign Ps are tearing it up in results? HuK plays in Korea and Naniwa hasn't been to a foreign tournament in ages.
Nani came 4th at Blizzcon Invitational
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They finally touch ghost and leave out snipe/range.... sigh.
EMP fix is long overdue, but the ghost still has to be fixed.
Edit: and I play terran BTW before people claim QQ.
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LOL that ghost change isnt going to do anything
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On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks.
If you think emp was meh. Your doing it wrong. Disables storm and ff while taking out 50% of the hp of the protoss death ball, also is instant and undodgeable. Yea so meh
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i dunno how i feel about the damage and armor upgrades being reduced, but the shield one is a must. I think they should even reduce the cost of shields further and just not touch the damage/armor upgrade costs.
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On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks.
EMP was "meh"? What the hell ...Dealing 1000+ dmg before attacking the Protoss seems pretty meh you're right.
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On October 26 2011 09:04 Arko.is wrote:The snipe ability needs a cooldown (5-10 sec should do it). Makes sens even 
Yes because Protoss totally care about snipe in TvP... (energy spent on EMP is almost always better than sniping). It wouldn't change TvP at all since HTs will still get sniped down with any excess energy left on the ghosts consider how low HP they have.
If snipe had 10 second cooldown it would pretty much never be used in TvZ, and ghost would be even less useful in TvT.
On October 26 2011 09:09 unsaintly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks. EMP was "meh"? What the hell ...Dealing 1000+ dmg before attacking the Protoss seems pretty meh you're right.
EMP can't outright kill units though, it's just shield damage, unlike storm which can instagib an entire army if you have a good position. Each spell has pros and cons, wish people would stop arguing about which one's are 'better'...
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EPT
