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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:30 Fruscainte wrote: Yeah, but, unfortunately -- there is this unit called a mothership and Protoss' get it -- a lot. I know, astounding. Yeah it's really dumb, 1 Vortex to end the game. I really wish they patched it like they did with ground units, then it'll be fun to watch. | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
From a pro player standpoint its pretty annoying when you watch a replay and see the zerg would have died if you attacked at X point but because you didnt he got 4 extra Muta's and you went fast robotics tech so now you lose. Or having to guess where zergs hidden buildings are when ur base is on the clock. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote: Yea, Protoss get Motherships so often, Blizzard is removing it from the game due to it not being used enough. And they are getting the Tempest instead. hmmmm. Although Blizzard stated that they didn't want to add any strength to the deathball. They actually have, just indirectly. They are making it easier for you guys to get to that 200/200 army + mass recall I might add. So if you screw up those forcefields, just recall, rinse and repeat. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:57 Fruscainte wrote: Honestly, I just think people need to fucking WAIT. They see something strong and go "WHAT THE FUCK SO BAD" I mean, look at the past month. Look at how far the damn Mothership has gotten just out of freaking nowhere. As you said, muta's used to be completely not viable until magic box was discovered. Hell, remember way back in the old beta days when people thought that when a Protoss got a single Immortal, Roaches were completely out of the question for the rest of the game? Then we found out, oh, wait, just build more and it's not a problem. I mean, I still explicitly remember the Day9 on it of him being perhaps just a bit shocked as well of how damn simple the way to beat Immortals were -- just more god damn Roaches. Now this was way back when the game was new and rather volatile, but it makes the point I'm trying to make nonetheless. I may not be Masters or Grandmasters, and perhaps a pro or someone of that rank can come in and correct me -- but I really do feel from all the shit I do watch that there is a nice dynamic starting to even out between all the races in a semblance of "balance" Yeah pretty much my point. I'm in master league and to be honest I don't have some kind of deep epic knowledge of Sc2, but I do know enough from watching the metagame evolve so much with no balance changes in 5+ years of BW that most Sc2 people need to wait before passing judgement. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:57 K3Nyy wrote: Yeah it's really dumb, 1 Vortex to end the game. I really wish they patched it like they did with ground units, then it'll be fun to watch. Honestly, the idea of vortex is amazing -- it just was implemented horribly. It's really starting to be abused now. Before I was glad they're removing the Mothership due to how inactive it was, but now I'm kind of glad they're removing it for how hilariously strong it's turning out to be. | ||
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
Vikings? I really don't know about Mutalisks, but those Warhounds are fucking ugly. Please at least make them better looking on the actual release. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
This was originally suppose to be a discussion about the new units of HOTS and the motivations and reasoning behind those new units. Instead, its turned into players whining about mutas. There was some good discussion in the first few pages, and then it just kind of devolved. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote: It's funny how Blizzard is centering most of the balance issues on Mutalisks. What about Tanks? Banshees? VRs? Infestors? Vikings? ...What about them? Be specific. You literally haven't said anything substantial there. On December 13 2011 13:05 GhostFall wrote: OP here. I wouldnt mind if the mods closed this thread. This was originally suppose to be a discussion about the new units of HOTS and the motivations and reasoning behind those new units. Instead, its turned into players whining about mutas. There was some good discussion in the first few pages, and then it just kind of devolved. Then PM a mod. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
Mutalisks should've had either it's ground or attack-attack reduced so that a specific unit could counter it more soundly. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:08 Azzur wrote: In my opinion, it is a mistake to make a multi-purpose, and fast, mobile air unit with no hard counter to it. I find it a bit ridiculous that mutalists > vikings for instance when the purpose of the viking is anti-air. Mutalisks should've had either it's ground or attack-attack reduced so that a specific unit could counter it more soundly. This is the exact type of thinking that ruins true balance. Stop with this nonsensical implications of the need of "hard counters" Please, just stop. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:58 ZorBa.G wrote: And they are getting the Tempest instead. hmmmm. Although Blizzard stated that they didn't want to add any strength to the deathball. They actually have, just indirectly. They are making it easier for you guys to get to that 200/200 army + mass recall I might add. So if you screw up those forcefields, just recall, rinse and repeat. I can't see how the tempest doesn't add strength to the death ball. The counter to colossus is AA... either the tempest will deal with that kind of AA and keep the colossus safe, or it'll be pointless. Can you imagine how shit the tempest will be if it only does decent damage to 'light' units? We could call it the mega-pheonix. So it kills mutas, banshees and pheonix...awesome... But if it does good damage to armoured? ALL your medivacs die AND all your bio die to colossus. Got Vikings? To quote incontrol "I don't give a shit about you". Broodlords? Corruptors? gahahahaha. If it ends up being the answer to everything is 6 colossus and 6 tempest + whatever supply is left in gateway units I'd say the deathball is looking pretty bloody good right about now. Nevermind that colossus balls are going to get owned by the tempest. How many tempest do you need to kill a bunch of colossus? But it's ok, mutas are dealt with, nothing to see here. This is not the deathball your looking for. Move along. On December 13 2011 13:05 GhostFall wrote: OP here. I wouldnt mind if the mods closed this thread. This was originally suppose to be a discussion about the new units of HOTS and the motivations and reasoning behind those new units. Instead, its turned into players whining about mutas. There was some good discussion in the first few pages, and then it just kind of devolved. Maybe you cocked that up when you named the thread "Are Mutalisks Overpowered". | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:09 Fruscainte wrote: This is the exact type of thinking that ruins true balance. Stop with this nonsensical implications of the need of "hard counters" Please, just stop. Actually, I never claimed that hard counters should exist for everything. I'm claiming that the mutalisk, being mutli-purpose (attacks both air and ground), and is fast and mobile, should have something that can beat it very cost effectively. If, for instance, the mutalisk lost it's "fast and mobile", then there is a reduced need to hard counter it. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:14 Azzur wrote: Actually, I never claimed that hard counters should exist for everything. You claimed that since Vikings are Anti-Air, they should beat other air units that are more diverse for the sole fact of them being anti-air themselves. That's a plea for hard counters, despite how subtle. I find it a bit ridiculous that mutalists > vikings for instance when the purpose of the viking is anti-air. so that a specific unit could counter it more soundly. For reference. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:14 Azzur wrote: Actually, I never claimed that hard counters should exist for everything. I'm claiming that the mutalisk, being mutli-purpose (attacks both air and ground), and is fast and mobile, should have something that can beat it very cost effectively. If, for instance, the mutalisk lost it's "fast and mobile", then there is a reduced need to hard counter it. Vikings have more range, more hp and cost less gas (though slightly more minerals) They have a different purpose, mainly protecting tanks and fortified positions from siege units like BL, carriers, colossus and BCs which they do fantastically well. There is no reason for vikings to do well vs mutas. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:16 Fruscainte wrote: You claimed that since Vikings are Anti-Air, they should beat other air units that are more diverse for the sole fact of them being anti-air themselves. That's a plea for hard counters, despite how subtle. For reference. Again, I'm not saying that hard-counters are needed for all situations - just that in regards to mutalisks (because they are so flexible), something needs to hard-counter them (e.g. vikings). Repeating myself, but if the mutalisks lost part of their flexibility (e.g. speed), then I don't see the need for hard-counters anymore. Anyways, fortunately for the terrans, they have found a way to handle highly mobile mutalisks, but when watching the games, I often conclude that it is very very difficult for the average player to defend like the koreans do. The same cannot be said for the protoss, I believe they have found no answer to them yet. Thus, the original intention of the OP - blizzard has clearly seen the power of the mutalisks, and in HoTS, they are introducing many units that can counter them more soundly. If you don't agree with me, blizzard certainly does. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:25 Azzur wrote: Again, I'm not saying that hard-counters are needed for all situations - just that in regards to mutalisks (because they are so flexible), something needs to hard-counter them (e.g. vikings). Repeating myself, but if the mutalisks lost part of their flexibility (e.g. speed), then I don't see the need for hard-counters anymore. Anyways, fortunately for the terrans, they have found a way to handle highly mobile mutalisks, but when watching the games, I often conclude that it is very very difficult for the average player to defend like the koreans do. The same cannot be said for the protoss, I believe they have found no answer to them yet. Thus, the original intention of the OP - blizzard has clearly seen the power of the mutalisks, and in HoTS, they are introducing many units that can counter them more soundly. If you don't agree with me, blizzard certainly does. Blizzard also agreed that the Chargelot/Archon composition was a problem in T v P. This was before they nerfed emp and made Toss upgrades cheaper. I think Toss just wants everything on a silver platter, really. EDIT: If to say Toss was to get a hard counter to Mutas, how do you suppose Zerg is meant to keep you in your base? Zerg units are hardly cost effective against Terran units let alone Toss units. Zerg actually has to keep you contained in your base. It's no different as to why Zergs utilise mutas to keep the Terran army in his base. Some might say it's easier for Terran to deal with it. But believe me, after a large muta count it gets very difficult for Terran to deal with as well. I really think Toss just needs to learn how to deal with it instead of begging for Blizzard hand-outs. The amount of ground AOE a Toss army has is already a bit over the top imo...... let alone air aoe by the tempest. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:59 HyperionDreamer wrote: Yeah pretty much my point. I'm in master league and to be honest I don't have some kind of deep epic knowledge of Sc2, but I do know enough from watching the metagame evolve so much with no balance changes in 5+ years of BW that most Sc2 people need to wait before passing judgement. "5+ years"? Yeah.... it's actually been over a decade the last balance patch, 1.08, came out in May 2001 | ||
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tnt488
United States9 Posts
I dont think balance will be an issue. They can just make it bonus toward light units. That way phoenix's, vikings, and drops are still viable in all the other match ups. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:08 Azzur wrote: In my opinion, it is a mistake to make a multi-purpose, and fast, mobile air unit with no hard counter to it. I find it a bit ridiculous that mutalists > vikings for instance when the purpose of the viking is anti-air. The purpose of valkyries was "anti-air" too. They couldn't even land. But they didn't beat BCs. was that "ridiculous" too? | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
On December 13 2011 13:57 Mindcrime wrote: The purpose of valkyries was "anti-air" too. They couldn't even land. But they didn't beat BCs. was that "ridiculous" too? Yep, I felt that Blizzard got the air-balance model wrong in BW. Single purpose air-units like valkyries and devourers should counter all air units (including BCs and Carriers). The scout was a weird unit as well - mainly used for BM purposes, which wasn't a good thing. | ||
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