[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 87

On December 13 2011 14:05 Azzur wrote:
Yep, I felt that Blizzard got the air-balance model wrong in BW. Single purpose air-units like valkyries and devourers should counter all air units (including BCs and Carriers).

On December 13 2011 12:58 VTPerfect wrote:
What i don't like about mutas is the random luck factor in PvZ. The more Zerg skimps the more mutas he will be able to produce, and the more mutas he will be able to produce increases the probability that he will decimate a decent amount of probes or even win the game if the protoss player skimped on gateways. What makes the unit as a whole bad is because there is no real hard counter to Muta only soft counter and even then base racing situations happen every single time the Zerg isnt able to win in an army vs army battle. This problem was increased by the removal of storm warp ins and the +40 second blink nerf.

From a pro player standpoint its pretty annoying when you watch a replay and see the zerg would have died if you attacked at X point but because you didnt he got 4 extra Muta's and you went fast robotics tech so now you lose. Or having to guess where zergs hidden buildings are when ur base is on the clock.

On December 13 2011 14:16 Mindcrime wrote:


That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on tl outside of the general forum.

On December 13 2011 13:38 ZorBa.G wrote:


Blizzard also agreed that the Chargelot/Archon composition was a problem in T v P. This was before they nerfed emp and made Toss upgrades cheaper.

I think Toss just wants everything on a silver platter, really.

EDIT: If to say Toss was to get a hard counter to Mutas, how do you suppose Zerg is meant to keep you in your base? Zerg units are hardly cost effective against Terran units let alone Toss units. Zerg actually has to keep you contained in your base. It's no different as to why Zergs utilise mutas to keep the Terran army in his base.

Some might say it's easier for Terran to deal with it. But believe me, after a large muta count it gets very difficult for Terran to deal with as well. I really think Toss just needs to learn how to deal with it instead of begging for Blizzard hand-outs. The amount of ground AOE a Toss army has is already a bit over the top imo...... let alone air aoe by the tempest.

On December 13 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:

Well, aren't you very clever - sure, you can disagree but to just throw down feeble insults without any backing behind it is pretty weak.

On December 13 2011 14:28 Mordanis wrote:

Clearly one third of the population that plays SC2 is selfish and lazy and plays one race, and the other two thirds play two races and have to put up with the first group's shit. Am I missing logic or is this the most thinly veiled ( x OP, plz nerf) post in history. Also the current trends in strategy take care of what you are talking about. Protoss FFE and Z takes an early third. Both go for a strong deathball, infestor BL corruptor vs. x protoss deathball. Please think logically though, One race is not going to be very different in their behavior from another. Some players from every race have whined, and some have steered away from talking about balance. I am not going to say that mutas are OP or not, I just want there to be a decent discussion, and lambasting a third of the community while giving the rest a pass does not contribute. Please try to be less biased.

On December 13 2011 14:32 Empyrean wrote:


To be fair, you didn't back up your assertion either. You simply gave your opinion without any reason as to why other people should agree with you.

On December 13 2011 13:38 ZorBa.G wrote:


Blizzard also agreed that the Chargelot/Archon composition was a problem in T v P. This was before they nerfed emp and made Toss upgrades cheaper.

I think Toss just wants everything on a silver platter, really.

EDIT: If to say Toss was to get a hard counter to Mutas, how do you suppose Zerg is meant to keep you in your base? Zerg units are hardly cost effective against Terran units let alone Toss units. Zerg actually has to keep you contained in your base. It's no different as to why Zergs utilise mutas to keep the Terran army in his base.

Some might say it's easier for Terran to deal with it. But believe me, after a large muta count it gets very difficult for Terran to deal with as well. I really think Toss just needs to learn how to deal with it instead of begging for Blizzard hand-outs. The amount of ground AOE a Toss army has is already a bit over the top imo...... let alone air aoe by the tempest.

Yes, they are overpowered. A fast, mobile air unit that doest splash damage against light units (workers) is custom made to ruin economy and keep players in their bases. Terran and Protoss have no way to inflict the same damage or contain. Therefore Zerg has a mechanic the other races do not have access to... and more importantly - not effective way to counter. This is the definition of OP. End of story.

On December 13 2011 15:17 Ziggitz wrote:
You realize mutas were better in every possible way in broodwar right?

-Less larva meant that making power units like mutas were a much better use of larva.
-They were way more microable
-Barracks didn't have reactors for marines and marines had a lower rate of fire, base 40 hit points with no combat shield upgrade, base range of 4 with an upgrade to 5 and dropships and medics were 2 separate units which also cut into marine production.
-Mutas had 1 more range than archons.
-You could use micro to mitigate irradiate and anti air aoe wasa lot less effective as a whole.
-Dragoons were far less effective at dealing with them as stalkers are now.

If you took mutalisks as they are now and put them in broodwar zerg would have been a completely broken race. Mutalisks were pound for pound a better unit in broodwar and had to deal with far less effective hardcounters.



1.) mutalisks do not do splash damage.
2.) They do no extra damage to light units

I believe you are mistaking the mutalisk for the hellion, or possibly just have no clue what you're talking about.

On December 13 2011 15:17 Ziggitz wrote:
You realize mutas were better in every possible way in broodwar right?

-Less larva meant that making power units like mutas were a much better use of larva.
-They were way more microable
-Barracks didn't have reactors for marines and marines had a lower rate of fire, base 40 hit points with no combat shield upgrade, base range of 4 with an upgrade to 5 and dropships and medics were 2 separate units which also cut into marine production.
-Mutas had 1 more range than archons.
-You could use micro to mitigate irradiate and anti air aoe wasa lot less effective as a whole.
-Dragoons were far less effective at dealing with them as stalkers are now.

If you took mutalisks as they are now and put them in broodwar zerg would have been a completely broken race. Mutalisks were pound for pound a better unit in broodwar and had to deal with far less effective hardcounters.



1.) mutalisks do not do splash damage.
2.) They do no extra damage to light units

I believe you are mistaking the mutalisk for the hellion, or possibly just have no clue what you're talking about.

On December 13 2011 15:17 Ziggitz wrote:
You realize mutas were better in every possible way in broodwar right?

-Less larva meant that making power units like mutas were a much better use of larva.
-They were way more microable
-Barracks didn't have reactors for marines and marines had a lower rate of fire, base 40 hit points with no combat shield upgrade, base range of 4 with an upgrade to 5 and dropships and medics were 2 separate units which also cut into marine production.
-Mutas had 1 more range than archons.
-You could use micro to mitigate irradiate and anti air aoe wasa lot less effective as a whole.
-Dragoons were far less effective at dealing with them as stalkers are now.

If you took mutalisks as they are now and put them in broodwar zerg would have been a completely broken race. Mutalisks were pound for pound a better unit in broodwar and had to deal with far less effective hardcounters.

On December 13 2011 15:28 Azzur wrote:

I disagree with you about mutas vs irradiate. In my opinion, no amount of micro could mitigate irradiate and eventually, the zergs are going to be forced to transition out of them. However, I agree that prior to irradiate, mutas are even better in BW. However, I didn't like this aspect of BW - prior to SVs, mutas are OP but after it, mutas are weak.

In regards to protoss, corsairs were pretty good against them and storm did more damage. However, I do agree that protoss has a very tough time against them.

On December 13 2011 13:08 Azzur wrote:
In my opinion, it is a mistake to make a multi-purpose, and fast, mobile air unit with no hard counter to it. I find it a bit ridiculous that mutalists > vikings for instance when the purpose of the viking is anti-air.

Mutalisks should've had either it's ground or attack-attack reduced so that a specific unit could counter it more soundly.

On December 13 2011 14:17 denzelz wrote:


Having to guess what Zerg tech is? You mean like playing ZvT as a Zerg? I mean, what's the big deal about being able to scout the Zerg effectively? Protoss has the Observer, which is much much better than Overseer for scouting.

On December 13 2011 14:35 Azzur wrote:

Yep, but when giving my opinion, I didn't insult anyone. Just blindly insulting someone is just plain immaturity.

Anyways, I made alot of posts regarding this topic and it'll be good to summarise them all in 1 post:
- The OP title was, 'Are mutalisks overpowered in WoL?'. My answer to that question is, 'Yes', based on the fact that mutalisks are a multi-purpose (attack air and ground) and very mobile unit without any hard counter.
- I assert that if one of their characteristics is taken away (e.g. not mobile or not multi-purpose), then a hard counter is not needed.
- I also suggest that single purpose units should counter multi-purpose units.
- The OP provides good evidence: the introduction of many anti-muta units in HoTS seem to point out that Blizzard also thinks that this is the case.
- From a viewer perspective, in particular the ZvP matchup, I feel they are too powerful. In TvZ, they are already very destructive but terrans have found ways of dealing with it.
- I cite a historical example: SC1 would be almost unplayable because of mutalisks.