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On December 13 2011 15:17 Jackal888 wrote:
Yes, they are overpowered. A fast, mobile air unit that doest splash damage against light units (workers) is custom made to ruin economy and keep players in their bases. Terran and Protoss have no way to inflict the same damage or contain. Therefore Zerg has a mechanic the other races do not have access to... and more importantly - not effective way to counter. This is the definition of OP. End of story.
Yeah, just forget the fact that mutas are extremely expensive, horrible in direct engagements and easily defended by a few turrets which are faaaaar cheaper than the muta tech. Oh, they also take ages to tech to and build.
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I find it hard to believe they aren't if the topic generated 88 pages of discussion. I think realistically Protoss can't ever "counter" mutas (as every legitimate counter they have is > tier 2), which is the biggest problem (adding another tier 3 counter in HotS isn't going to fix anything). I think mutas are too fast, offer too much map control, deal too much damage to mineral lines, and have too much health to make them NOT worth building. I still site the Crazymoving/LiquidHero GSL series where Crazymoving played a 28 minute game and never built any offensive units other than zerglings and mutalisks, while Hero did all of the "proper" counters (getting a third, teching to HT's with storm/archons, blink stalker, etc); the result was pretty one-sided. In a matchup that is already fairly Zerg dominant, I don't think a 20 health reduction per mutalisk is unreasonable.
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here is why i think they are op.... i was playing a game the other day. he went mass roach and it was like 5 base to base base he i scouted the spire being built, he had no hydra den and i knew he was maxed on roaches and figured he was going to switch to muta,,, so i dropped 5 stargates and started air upgrades,,, i didn't have twighlight up yet and didn't think i would have enough time for storm since i was maxed and wouldn't be able to build tempolar anyway without killing my own army
the engagmement happens i wil with about 15 stalkers and 4 or 5 immortals left, i immediatly warp in about 15 new stalkers and start building 5 pheonix at a time
2 min later i lose to a max army of mutas...
end of story..
mutas are op
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On December 13 2011 17:17 MagmaRam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 14:35 Azzur wrote:On December 13 2011 14:32 Empyrean wrote:On December 13 2011 14:22 Azzur wrote:On December 13 2011 14:16 Mindcrime wrote:On December 13 2011 14:05 Azzur wrote:
Yep, I felt that Blizzard got the air-balance model wrong in BW. Single purpose air-units like valkyries and devourers should counter all air units (including BCs and Carriers). That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on tl outside of the general forum. Well, aren't you very clever - sure, you can disagree but to just throw down feeble insults without any backing behind it is pretty weak. To be fair, you didn't back up your assertion either. You simply gave your opinion without any reason as to why other people should agree with you. Yep, but when giving my opinion, I didn't insult anyone. Just blindly insulting someone is just plain immaturity. Anyways, I made alot of posts regarding this topic and it'll be good to summarise them all in 1 post: - The OP title was, 'Are mutalisks overpowered in WoL?'. My answer to that question is, 'Yes', based on the fact that mutalisks are a multi-purpose (attack air and ground) and very mobile unit without any hard counter. - I assert that if one of their characteristics is taken away (e.g. not mobile or not multi-purpose), then a hard counter is not needed. - I also suggest that single purpose units should counter multi-purpose units. - The OP provides good evidence: the introduction of many anti-muta units in HoTS seem to point out that Blizzard also thinks that this is the case. - From a viewer perspective, in particular the ZvP matchup, I feel they are too powerful. In TvZ, they are already very destructive but terrans have found ways of dealing with it. - I cite a historical example: SC1 would be almost unplayable because of mutalisks. Mutalisks have no hard-counter? I may be misunderstanding you here, but it seems like mutalisks have plenty of hard counters in WOL. We'll ignore ZvZ for the moment because I know nothing about that matchup, and mirrors are balanced by default barring positional issues. Against Terran, Mutalisks have a lot to deal with. Missile turrets are possibly the most effective AA static defense in the game, and just to rub in the high damage it does, they can be mass repaired, far outhealing the damage mutas are going to do. However, this can only hit one mutalisk at once, and mutas come in groups. Also, the bounce attack is going to hit repairing SCVs, and repair takes away mining time. Fighting a marine/tank army with mutas is a nightmare, and stim marines+medivacs will shred a muta flock frighteningly fast, while the mutas have less range than the marines. Against a more mech-based army, Thors serve as the usual counter to mutalisks, however in small numbers Thors are easily beaten with magic box. Conclusion: Missile turrets cover defense, Marines shred mutas, and thors do well when they can use their splash damage. Protoss I know less about, but it seems like there are some counters to mutalisks. Stalkers can fight mutas, but with less effectiveness than Marines due to a lower DPS. I've heard both claims that mutas beat stalkers cost-wise, and claims that stalkers win. With blink micro, I'd give it to the stalkers, but that's micro vs. a-move. Templar tech deals with mutas somewhat effectively. Psi Storm will destroy large numbers of mutalisks, but a zerg player who isn't either half-asleep or injecting larvae will fly out of storms, taking minimal damage. If the Protoss isn't paying attention, the templar will just get sniped before they can do anything. Archons can destroy mutas. Stargate has the phoenix, but it seems to be unused for fighting mutas, probably because of the amount of micro to keep out of range of mutalisks. Even so, it seems like it would be effective, though it's probably not for reasons somebody will tell me. Photon Cannons seem to do okay against mutas, but lack the DPS or Conclusion: Protoss has far less effective ways to deal with mutalisks than Terran does, but the strong AOE of templar tech and bio damage combined with splash of archons can do very well. Overall, if Mutas are OP, it's against protoss. Correct me if I got anything facts wrong.
When I state "hard counter", I mean that a unit will overwhelmingly defeat another unit. Thus, I believe mutas have no "hard counter", rather they have several "soft counters".
In TvZ, there used to be the prevailing opinion that the terran cannot let the zerg build up a muta-cloud (e.g. 30+ mutas) or the mutalisks can just fly in the base, focus down the turrets, kill workers to key buildings and leave before any units can arrive. Terrans have learnt to deal with this by leaving a squad of marines behind - a quick stim of them can fend off the harass. I do contend that TvZ is currently fine - mutas are OP, but terrans have the equally OP marines. So, in this sense, it is a clash of different styles which I think makes the matchup quite interesting and varied.
However, ZvP is another story altogether. I'm a protoss hater but I was a little disgusted after watching the hero vs crazymoving game GSL Code A game. And I've seen several other instances of muta-abuse by many players.
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On December 13 2011 15:17 Ziggitz wrote:You realize mutas were better in every possible way in broodwar right? -Less larva meant that making power units like mutas were a much better use of larva. -They were way more microable -Barracks didn't have reactors for marines and marines had a lower rate of fire, base 40 hit points with no combat shield upgrade, base range of 4 with an upgrade to 5 and dropships and medics were 2 separate units which also cut into marine production. -Mutas had 1 more range than archons. -You could use micro to mitigate irradiate and anti air aoe wasa lot less effective as a whole. -Dragoons were far less effective at dealing with them as stalkers are now. If you took mutalisks as they are now and put them in broodwar zerg would have been a completely broken race. Mutalisks were pound for pound a better unit in broodwar and had to deal with far less effective hardcounters. Show nested quote +Yes, they are overpowered. A fast, mobile air unit that doest splash damage against light units (workers) is custom made to ruin economy and keep players in their bases. Terran and Protoss have no way to inflict the same damage or contain. Therefore Zerg has a mechanic the other races do not have access to... and more importantly - not effective way to counter. This is the definition of OP. End of story. 1.) mutalisks do not do splash damage. 2.) They do no extra damage to light units I believe you are mistaking the mutalisk for the hellion, or possibly just have no clue what you're talking about.
There are a few major flaws in your argument. First, Irradiate was really, really good against Mutalisks. It's no coincidence that you see Zerg players transition out of Mutalisks in the midgame; it's because they can't deal with the Irradiates. Each one is guaranteed to destroy 100/100 of resources and forces the Zerg back to draw out the Irradiated Muta and regroup. Even more, it's a solid amount of damage on the entire ball. Second, Corsairs were incredibly good, period. The Overlord hunting is obviously a huge deal, and a stacking hard counter to Mutas is pretty much as bad as it can get for them. Once the Corsair count got to about 4 or 5, it was the end for Mutas on the Zerg side of things. All they were good for afterwards was sniping HTs. The final and most important detail is that you could only have 11 Mutas at a time. Any more and your micro would suffer immensely.
Pretty much, when you compile all these factors, you find that the BW Muta was a completely different unit than the SC2 Muta. The BW Muta was extremely powerful at certain specific timings, and then became very weak afterwards due to counterunits and abysmal stacking above 11. The SC2 Muta is quite weak at rushed timings, but will only get stronger the more you get of them. We all know from the horrible example of the Colossus how bad it is to have exponentially stacking anti-ground units in the game (only exception is the Siege Tank, because of the way Siege Mode works). It doesn't matter if they are balanced when you first get them; there's always going to be a point where you can get a "deathball" of them and make the game stupid. It is an unbalanceable unit design, and in order to fix it requires that races have access to very hard counters (see: Viking, Corruptor). The issue with the Mutalisk is that its counters are not currently hard enough, so it's caught in the miserable void between being too weak early on and too strong later on. I would be a huge fan of significantly increasing the degree to which the Thor and the Phoenix hard counter Mutas and in exchange increasing the strength of Mutas. This would be a return to the Broodwar model, where specific Muta timings are extremely strong but in which Mutas get weaker as the game goes on by being hard countered.
Oh, and remove the Colossus. I always end my arguments on that note.
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The other difference vs BW is the firebat/reaver. Both of those units meant that lings would be crushed in mid game fights. This meant that mutaling without another tech would not be able to hold T/P armies once they reached critical mass.
Without bats, MMtank is not particularly efficient against mutaling, except in really good positioning. With the inclusion of battlehellions, I think we will see the need for another tech to be able to hold after ~14-15m.
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Lol is this thread going again? I guess someone popular lost a game to mutalisks and therefore they must be OP?
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GSL Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game Anyone watching leenock vs naniwa? So true. =)
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On December 13 2011 19:04 memcpy wrote:GSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler +On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game Anyone watching leenock vs naniwa? So true. =)
yes; thi sis my tpyical game PvZ on KR master server.
Muta ling base trade is OP. toss cannot be eeverywhere at once; we try to go out to kill u; we lose our econ; we cant remake units; we lose since u have 10 bases mining everywhere.
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I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused.
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If muta are overpowered well damn I should make a thread on colossi being overpowered, or marines, maybe even siege tanks because its just ridiculous when 4 siege tanks make 15 banelings useless! Or the mothership and vortex as nothing more frusterating then watching my whole army die to 4+ archons in a vortex. HMMM!
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On December 13 2011 19:14 50bani wrote:
I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused.
If you look at the Zerg units, it's pretty obvious this isn't true though. Lings and banelings are incredibly good against many compositions, infestors are still good, roaches are not bad, the only really useless unit is the hydralisk.
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On December 13 2011 19:18 MagmaRam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 19:14 50bani wrote:
I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused. If you look at the Zerg units, it's pretty obvious this isn't true though. Lings and banelings are incredibly good against many compositions, infestors are still good, roaches are not bad, the only really useless unit is the hydralisk.
Nope Hydras are still used in ZvP and ZvZ and not just against air units.
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On December 13 2011 19:18 MagmaRam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 19:14 50bani wrote:
I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused.
If you look at the Zerg units, it's pretty obvious this isn't true though. Lings and banelings are incredibly good against many compositions, infestors are still good, roaches are not bad, the only really useless unit is the hydralisk.
And If you look at the protoss and terran units it is pretty obvious that they are equiped to deal with mutalisks pretty well out oft an even position.
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On December 13 2011 19:31 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 19:18 MagmaRam wrote:On December 13 2011 19:14 50bani wrote:
I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused. If you look at the Zerg units, it's pretty obvious this isn't true though. Lings and banelings are incredibly good against many compositions, infestors are still good, roaches are not bad, the only really useless unit is the hydralisk. Nope Hydras are still used in ZvP and ZvZ and not just against air units.
The OP of (almost) all zerg's units comes from the ridiculously high speed.
Speedlings, banelings with speed, roaches with speed, muta as well... All this stuff leads to, just, a-move-watch and hope, that you have stronger units/positions, no place for reacting/regrouping/repositioning.
I'm pretty sure most of zerg's units speed must be decreased. Muta is a first in this list.
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I'm pretty sure most of zerg's units speed must be decreased. Muta is a first in this list.
and in return make them supply efficient?
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On December 13 2011 19:41 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 19:31 secretary bird wrote:On December 13 2011 19:18 MagmaRam wrote:On December 13 2011 19:14 50bani wrote:
I love it how this thread gets bumped every time a Zerg beats a Protoss on GSL. I wonder if maybe all the other units except for Mutalisks are underpowered and this is why Mutas get so abused. If you look at the Zerg units, it's pretty obvious this isn't true though. Lings and banelings are incredibly good against many compositions, infestors are still good, roaches are not bad, the only really useless unit is the hydralisk. Nope Hydras are still used in ZvP and ZvZ and not just against air units. The OP of (almost) all zerg's units comes from the ridiculously high speed. Speedlings, banelings with speed, roaches with speed, muta as well... All this stuff leads to, just, a-move-watch and hope, that you have stronger units/positions, no place for reacting/regrouping/repositioning. I'm pretty sure most of zerg's units speed must be decreased. Muta is a first in this list.
almost all zerg units OP? Your logics hurt my head. Just because you a-move-watch doesn't mean actual good players do this and "hope" they get a strong position.
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On December 13 2011 19:45 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure most of zerg's units speed must be decreased. Muta is a first in this list. and in return make them supply efficient?
But they are now.
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Actually, looking at your post history, every single one is whining about zerg. Haha.
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if protoss ever cheese me or try anything funny i just get mutas and win. also if im drunk or frustrated i just get mutas to win. pretty funny actualy.
i get mutas in every match up. idk if that means they are overpowered tho because there are many units every race gets in all matchups.
but personaly i think that there comes a point where toss cant deal with mutas and they just win which is wrong
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EPT
