EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 85
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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Bloog
United States44 Posts
On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote: why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game No warning because he's a pro, or what? I've seen such less hostile posts than this get warned/banned. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On December 13 2011 07:38 Drowsy wrote: corsair in bw didn't render the muta a gimmick unit; it was something you got 6-12 of, forced a reaction, and harassed with. You couldn't just mass it all game. Right now zerg can basically mass mutas and if protoss wants to counter with the theoretical hard counter, phoenixes, they sacrifice so much that they're vulnerable to any tech switch. As a result, they're pretty much forced to soft counter it and phoenixes, which are supposed to hard counter mutas, are never seen as a reaction to mutas. That all being said, I hate the idea of removing carrier/mothership and adding the tempest. I think an upgrade at fleet beacon that gives phoenixes splash damage would be way better. I don't even know if even that is necessary with mass recall on nexus. This exactly. An expensive and slow upgrade at the Fleet Beacon giving Phoenixes splash would solve everything. Instead Blizzard wants the Fleet Beacon to unlock the Tempest, a silly a-move unit that will be even more boring than the Thor. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:29 Bloog wrote: No warning because he's a pro, or what? I've seen such less hostile posts than this get warned/banned. Yes, his post may have been rude, but as a known skilled member of the community maybe you should recognize that when he faces top skill level protoss he is not able to always win with Mutalisks. He even does protoss players a favor in suggesting that mothership based plays are the counter that works against his muta plays the best. Your only contribution was to try and call him out...thanks? Muta's are definitely powerful, please understand the difference between powerful and OP, it's kind of stupid the misuse that word gets. I would say that mutas are so powerful that blizzard is making them less effective in the expansion by giving both protoss and terran cool new ways to deal with them. Quit trying to get mutas nerfed, it's very stupid considering that 1) the pro based stats are close enough that muta clearly not that much of a problem and 2) the expansion will take care of the problem. tldr: shut up about mutas already please. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:43 SolidZeal wrote: I would say that mutas are so powerful that blizzard is making them less effective in the expansion by giving both protoss and terran cool new ways to deal with them. I'm actually curious to see how that works out and see how much of a stronger reaction they really are. The warhound might be faster than the thor, but has range 7 and its ground attack is literally half useless (10+10 against mech) when facing Z. The tempest requires the same tech as the mothership, which nobody seems to consider. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On December 13 2011 09:51 SafeAsCheese wrote: Keep a thor, potentially in a medivac, patroling around your base? A zerg, even with 35 muta, does not want to fly into 5 turrets + 1 thor just to kill a few scv. If you are actually pushing as well, then they will need that 70 supply in battle.. And a thor in my base is the difference between surviving the baneling wave or losing all my marines and then tanks. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
It seems a recurring theme about Muta's, and generally everything, is that people don't want to work. It's just "give us X so that we can build it and not have to worry about it anymore." Muta's are a huge investment. They sacrifice an extremely powerful army for a primarily harass and hit and run unit that is rather expensive and fragile. They should have high damage potential, and it should take some damn effort to beat them off. I do agree at a certain critical mass, Protoss has no real way to deal with them at the moment -- but hopefully the Tempest will have a bit of a solution to that. I don't want to make a comment on balance, however. It just seems that people, since the start of SC2, are infatuated with the concept of "hard counters" and want them to just insta-win against anything they have issues with. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On December 13 2011 09:56 Meff wrote: Mutas do not deal splash damage. Get your facts straight before discussing the balance of an unit, please. Bounce isn't true "splash" but in the context of splash itself, that's the reason tanks suck in TvP. The bounce doesn't seem like much, but when you have 20 mutalisks, a 3 damage bounce instantly takes out a second SCV. With 1 armor, 25 mutas does. Mutas attacking a planetary or mass-repaired turret will liquify the SCV's repairing it so quickly it's a joke. It's multi-target damage on an absurdly fast-moving, fast accelerating unit that has pretty much no problems with their hard counters (phoenix/thor) I don't really have problems with mutas, but watching them melt all repairing SCV's seems like the problem to me. What I really want is not that the muta be nerfed, what I want is something that lets me leave my base and position around the map without having the muta flock swoop in and give me exactly one chance to make my attack work, because the mutas can wreck my addons, mineral lines, and still be back in time to defend. And it's not like mutas are even that fragile. If banelings wipe out 80% of the marines, mutalisks can clean it up so well that it doesn't even make sense. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:02 Honeybadger wrote: Bounce isn't true "splash" but in the context of splash itself, that's the reason tanks suck in TvP. The bounce doesn't seem like much, but when you have 20 mutalisks, a 3 damage bounce instantly takes out a second SCV. With 1 armor, 25 mutas does. Mutas attacking a planetary or mass-repaired turret will liquify the SCV's repairing it so quickly it's a joke. It's multi-target damage on an absurdly fast-moving, fast accelerating unit that has pretty much no problems with their hard counters (phoenix/thor) I don't really have problems with mutas, but watching them melt all repairing SCV's seems like the problem to me. 2000/2000 and 40 supply worth of fragile Light units melting SCV lines is a "problem"? | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote: You know, I read about 50 pages of this thread over the past few days. It seems a recurring theme about Muta's, and generally everything, is that people don't want to work. It's just "give us X so that we can build it and not have to worry about it anymore." Muta's are a huge investment. They sacrifice an extremely powerful army for a primarily harass and hit and run unit that is rather expensive and fragile. They should have high damage potential, and it should take some damn effort to beat them off. I do agree at a certain critical mass, Protoss has no real way to deal with them at the moment -- but hopefully the Tempest will have a bit of a solution to that. I don't want to make a comment on balance, however. It just seems that people, since the start of SC2, are infatuated with the concept of "hard counters" and want them to just insta-win against anything they have issues with. I honestly think they are ok in ZvT. Marines with stim are good, thors with turrets are effective. ZvP seems wrong to watch and play. Pheonix should be the answer. Everything about the unit says it should be capable to deal with mutas. + damage to light, fast AA unit. It's clearly intended to deal with mutas and it brutally, obviously fails to do so. Every other answer relys on the protoss playing either getting lucky or just strait out being better than the zerg player. HT with storm requires lightning reactions to get to your HT, select them and storm the mutas before they focus fire the HT you have sitting around to defend that min line. If you miss micro the storms you'll lose the expo. Mothership can vortex them, but honestly I think that's more luck or poor control by the zerg player. Archons are a 3 range version of a thor. That's not a zerg miss micro, that's a brain fart. Blink stalkers are great on 1 base, good for 2 base, bad for 3 bases and outright terrible for 4+. Mutas are a big investment which leaves zerg vulnerable right as they get the spire up and build the first wave, which is why the "answer" is a timing attack right then. After that protoss just get further and further behind. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:43 SolidZeal wrote: Yes, his post may have been rude, but as a known skilled member of the community maybe you should recognize that when he faces top skill level protoss he is not able to always win with Mutalisks. He even does protoss players a favor in suggesting that mothership based plays are the counter that works against his muta plays the best. Your only contribution was to try and call him out...thanks? Muta's are definitely powerful, please understand the difference between powerful and OP, it's kind of stupid the misuse that word gets. I would say that mutas are so powerful that blizzard is making them less effective in the expansion by giving both protoss and terran cool new ways to deal with them. Quit trying to get mutas nerfed, it's very stupid considering that 1) the pro based stats are close enough that muta clearly not that much of a problem and 2) the expansion will take care of the problem. tldr: shut up about mutas already please. Lets be honest here though, what race can beat a 200/200 Protoss army? Other then Protoss of course..... I don't think Mutas are overpowered if you consider just how powerful a Toss is lategame. I think it's Protoss just getting annoyed because they can't get to that 200 supply army as easily as they can in P v T. | ||
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:20 ZorBa.G wrote: Lets be honest here though, what race can beat a 200/200 Protoss army? Other then Protoss of course..... Clue: Terran, Zerg. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:20 ZorBa.G wrote: Lets be honest here though, what race can beat a 200/200 Protoss army? Other then Protoss of course..... I don't think Mutas are overpowered if you consider just how powerful a Toss is lategame. I think it's Protoss just getting annoyed because they can't get to that 200 supply army as easily as they can in P v T. Terran? Harder now with EMP nerf, but still definately possible. Zerg? Infestor BL seems to do pretty damn good from what i've seen. It's not 'easy' and usually I would say it comes down the players. Like, as if the game was balanced or something. This is dumb. Protoss can max vs mutas, but if they move out they lose their base. It's got nothing to do about getting a 200 supply army. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
Haha so true. It is such a huge myth going around that a protoss max army is unstoppable. When it comes to PvT, it all depends on the engagement. If terran gets good EMP's, terran wins. If toss gets good storms, toss wins. In PvZ zerg's haven't learned how to deal with the mothership because they haven't run into it enough. But without the mothership zerg BL/infetor wrecks a 200/200 toss army. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:28 happyness wrote: But without the mothership zerg BL/infetor wrecks a 200/200 toss army. Yeah, but, unfortunately -- there is this unit called a mothership and Protoss' get it -- a lot. I know, astounding. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:24 Kharnage wrote: Terran? Harder now with EMP nerf, but still definately possible. Zerg? Infestor BL seems to do pretty damn good from what i've seen. It's not 'easy' and usually I would say it comes down the players. Like, as if the game was balanced or something. This is dumb. Protoss can max vs mutas, but if they move out they lose their base. It's got nothing to do about getting a 200 supply army. Just like in T v Z, I'm sure P v Z isn't any different. The defense against mutas comes in the form of offense. You guys have Warp Prisms, Proxy pylons, Pheonix (Which can not only be used as a direct counter for mutas but also to ovie snipe), heck you could even send in just 2 DT's while your defending (maybe too much multitasking?). You can't really expect Blizzard to keep babying you to make things so simple. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:00 Fruscainte wrote: You know, I read about 50 pages of this thread over the past few days. It seems a recurring theme about Muta's, and generally everything, is that people don't want to work. It's just "give us X so that we can build it and not have to worry about it anymore." Muta's are a huge investment. They sacrifice an extremely powerful army for a primarily harass and hit and run unit that is rather expensive and fragile. They should have high damage potential, and it should take some damn effort to beat them off. I do agree at a certain critical mass, Protoss has no real way to deal with them at the moment -- but hopefully the Tempest will have a bit of a solution to that. I don't want to make a comment on balance, however. It just seems that people, since the start of SC2, are infatuated with the concept of "hard counters" and want them to just insta-win against anything they have issues with. I pretty much agree with this, except the fact that you say that P has no way to due with a critical mass of mutas. There are plenty of ways to play against the muta ball, which I won't get into here. What I want to get into is a general discussion of the fact that people beg for hard counters. I play a muta focused style in both ZvT and ZvP, and honestly there are so many good responses to the specific timings that come out during the process of securing mutas that people are overlooking... Here's an example from BW, since I can speak much more intelligently about that game than I can Sc2 (especially because Sc2 changes metagames monthly, if not weekly). In BW, 2 fact vult was a great timing attack that you could pull off against another T who went 1 fact cc, despite the fact that on face value, vultures do not do well per cost against siege tanks. In addition, mines are fantastic defenders of a T mech push in TvP. It protects the tanks against goons/zeal attacks, and not only do mines do very well against P gateway units, they actually ONE shot kill zeals that attack your sieged position. Imagine having that happen in Sc2 in ZvT - you're trying to surround the T push with your ling/bling and you actually cannot WALK your units within a certain distance of his without each and every one of them dying. People would be crying imba left and right, and the entire muta/ling/bling style would have to be completely be revamped, since you never could actually engage the T army. But wait! Protoss in BW came up with this fantastic trick called mine dragging, where you would drop zealots from a shuttle onto your opponent's siege line, dragging the mines BACK into his own tanks to kill them off. In theory, this could work in Sc2 with overlord drops, assuming mines were just transplanted into the game one night. One of the greatest things about BW was that it WASN'T rock paper scissors build orders. In the case of vultures, mines, and gateway units, mine drags were a case of paper turning back around and smacking scissors in the face. There was a stage in Sc2 where no one used mutalisks and thought they were terrible units (read: before the magic box was popularized). But that doesn't mean thors are imbalanced, or mutas needed to be buffed. In the current stage of the game, people need to understand that because muta play is strong in the metagame, that doesn't imply that mutas are overpowered or protoss/terran is underpowered. It means that right now, the way mutalisk builds are being executed have something more fundamentally "correct" about them than the way people choose to play against them. Sure, I'm willing to concede that if we wait three years and NOTHING has emerged to counter a percieved utter dominance of mutalisk openings in ZvT/ZvP, then there might be something wrong with the actual units themselves. The concept of hardcounters is one that's treated with such a double standard in the Sc2 community. People want hard counters (since they want to just make unit X and never ever have to worry about unit Y), but they don't realize that a true rock paper scissors game degenerates to pure chance, which I don't think is a game that any of us want to be playing. | ||
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:30 Fruscainte wrote: Yeah, but, unfortunately -- there is this unit called a mothership and Protoss' get it -- a lot. I know, astounding. Yea, Protoss get Motherships so often, Blizzard is removing it from the game due to it not being used enough. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:33 ZorBa.G wrote: Just like in T v Z, I'm sure P v Z isn't any different. The defense against mutas comes in the form of offense. You guys have Warp Prisms, Proxy pylons, Pheonix (Which can not only be used as a direct counter for mutas but also to ovie snipe), heck you could even send in just 2 DT's while your defending (maybe too much multitasking?). You can't really expect Blizzard to keep babying you to make things so simple. It's funny actually, how good mutas are at cleaning up proxy pylons, warp prisms and small warp ins. It's almost like throwing money away... Yes, pheonix can snipe ovies and queens and until infestors are on the field pheonix are a good unit. no doubt. but they cannot deal with a muta ball and they cost a lot. Pheonix cost 50 more mins than mutas and are a sub par harassment unit. If you're going pheonix you probably want to stop at 8 to 12 since more than that costs too much and doesn't leave you enough supply to deal with non-muta zerg. Did anyone see that MLG where tyler got like 20+ pheonix vs zerg? Day9 was practically begging him to stop building them in the cast...and then tyler got fungaled and lost most of his army value. DT's are certainly an option while defending, but it doesn't address the muta problem, especially in the base race scenario, does it. Especially now that seers are cheaper and getting spores is a good idea regardless. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
I mean, look at the past month. Look at how far the damn Mothership has gotten just out of freaking nowhere. As you said, muta's used to be completely not viable until magic box was discovered. Hell, remember way back in the old beta days when people thought that when a Protoss got a single Immortal, Roaches were completely out of the question for the rest of the game? Then we found out, oh, wait, just build more and it's not a problem. I mean, I still explicitly remember the Day9 on it of him being perhaps just a bit shocked as well of how damn simple the way to beat Immortals were -- just more god damn Roaches. Now this was way back when the game was new and rather volatile, but it makes the point I'm trying to make nonetheless. I may not be Masters or Grandmasters, and perhaps a pro or someone of that rank can come in and correct me -- but I really do feel from all the shit I do watch that there is a nice dynamic starting to even out between all the races in a semblance of "balance" On December 13 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote: Yea, Protoss get Motherships so often, Blizzard is removing it from the game due to it not being used enough. Have you been watching ANY pro games at all in the past month? The mothership has risen to such a point as people calling it OP and "breaking PvZ", including very damn well good Zergs across the board. Fuck, even Morrow commented on it early in the thread. The mothership is what makes the lategame PvZ army these days. | ||
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