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On December 13 2011 01:18 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Someone saw today MC - DRG? I don't know how a Protoss can expand, spread and manage better against mutas than that.. Really.
MC - DRG was played on possibly the worst map for any third base possible. Which is hugely Zerg favoured in the PvZ match up regardless of what the Zerg is going for. It was a stupid map that killed MC, not mutalisks.
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why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game
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On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game
THANK YOU MORROW.
Discussion over please.
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On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game
great reply, thanks for your response!!
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On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
I think mutas are too easily massed. If a player limits himself and says, "okay I'm only going to have 20-24 mutas at a time" I think they're manageable. They're annoying, but they're manageable.
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
In general it's really annoying to me that a regular army can't stand up to a harass unit. That you can harass, then bring your mutas back to deal with an attack and between those and lings you're fine is just silly.
I think they need to lose their glaive attack at least.
But the bigger issue to me is that if a player goes apeshit crazy and gets 40+ mutas...there's nothing to really do about it if you move out of your base and they're alive. And it's not like you can really say, "well just don't let him do that." Any zerg past the midgame can make tons of mutas if they want to. And sure, if you're protoss you can specifically build to counter mutas, but you're in an icky spot till they screw up and you kill all their mutas. Terran don't really even have that option, and they can't rebuild fast enough to deal with something like that.
At the same time, I don't want them to turn into a black and white unit. I think things like that are just terrible design. I don't want to play rock-paper-scissors. I just think they need to be limited a little better.
I think you are perfectly right, although the main problem with mutas in PvZ remains that Protoss don't have ANY proper counter to them, and I don't necessarily mean a rock-paper-scissor unit but at least one that can directly thwart a mass muta style of play. That unit should have been the phoenix, unfortunately it's just a piece of crap. Putting the Tempest as a muta direct counter is simply a stupid idea, the funny thing is that they realized how the Thor was a stupid idea in the first place, but they are basically making the exact same mistakes and giving them to the Protoss (a bulky, expensive and hard-to-get-to unit as a counter to a fast, relatively cheap and accessible unit). There was only one answer to mass muta play, and it was redesigning the phoenix so that spotting a spire and dropping a stargate would discourage the zerg player from going on with mass mutas.
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There was only one answer to mass muta play, and it was redesigning the phoenix so that spotting a spire and dropping a stargate would discourage the zerg player from going on with mass mutas.
so basically you want mutas to becoma a gimmick unit.
Thats the problem with the "hardcounter". It is not only good against ah huuuuuuge number of mutas, but also against small numbers. So mutas would just become a non issue and even a brain dead monkey could deal with them.
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On December 13 2011 02:21 Fred Flintstone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game great reply, thanks for your response!!
I dunno if this is supposed to be sarcasm, but it's what a lot of pro Z will tell you, even lower league Z. Especially IdrA
You only need one good trade off a 200/200 3 base protoss army to win a game, a zerg having 7/4k banked won't help because you will be camping their rallies.
Vortex with enough archons and templars to storm will always be a favorable trade for protoss.
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On December 13 2011 02:06 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:18 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Someone saw today MC - DRG? I don't know how a Protoss can expand, spread and manage better against mutas than that.. Really. MC - DRG was played on possibly the worst map for any third base possible. Which is hugely Zerg favoured in the PvZ match up regardless of what the Zerg is going for. It was a stupid map that killed MC, not mutalisks.
Agreed. If that game had been played on, say, Calm Before the Storm, MC would have crushed DRG (had he gone for the same strategy, of course). Crossfire is just the second worst map in the GSL map pool (first being Dual Shite).
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On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
I think mutas are too easily massed. If a player limits himself and says, "okay I'm only going to have 20-24 mutas at a time" I think they're manageable. They're annoying, but they're manageable.
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
Are you fucking retarded? Keep in mind you play the race that has colossus, which is the ULTIMATE 'be prepared to deal with the unit or die a horrible death' unit.
User was warned for this post
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On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game
MorroW we need more of ur wisedom I think!!!
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Listen up noobs. There is no way the Mutalisks are overpowered in this game, most people will refer to mutas being over powered in the ZvP matchup, however most of them don't have the right brain to leave a high templar and archon back at their base with a good couple o' fellow cannons. I've tried doing this "style" as Zerg and it has ended being absolutley SHIT! it does nothing! rofl! HAHAHAH! ITS SO BAD! they just storm my mutas, even with dodging potential the archon still has a flood of damage. And while im dodging the storms at this point, jjaja dare i say it, hes collosi stalker void ray army is over powered thinking he's jar jar binks just ripping the my army like a hot knife through butter. So in my detailed explanation, i think we see that i am correct and all of you are wrong.
User was banned for this post.
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On November 06 2011 07:38 Arcanefrost wrote:
In pvz i think its impossible to win once zerg has a lot of mutas and just starts a basetrade every time you move out. But tempest wont really fix that, I'm not sure what can be done.
Are you strictly mental.
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On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game
Well said mate. Work on micro tournament. : )
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On December 13 2011 06:05 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 02:08 MorroW wrote:
why is this thread not closed? some ppl in here, dont embarrass yourself plz
take 3 base, sit, sit, sit 200food and mothereship. move out and win the game MorroW we need more of ur wisedom I think!!!
so toss should use archon toilet?
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On December 13 2011 05:45 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +There was only one answer to mass muta play, and it was redesigning the phoenix so that spotting a spire and dropping a stargate would discourage the zerg player from going on with mass mutas. so basically you want mutas to becoma a gimmick unit. Thats the problem with the "hardcounter". It is not only good against ah huuuuuuge number of mutas, but also against small numbers. So mutas would just become a non issue and even a brain dead monkey could deal with them.
corsair in bw didn't render the muta a gimmick unit; it was something you got 6-12 of, forced a reaction, and harassed with. You couldn't just mass it all game.
Right now zerg can basically mass mutas and if protoss wants to counter with the theoretical hard counter, phoenixes, they sacrifice so much that they're vulnerable to any tech switch. As a result, they're pretty much forced to soft counter it and phoenixes, which are supposed to hard counter mutas, are never seen as a reaction to mutas.
That all being said, I hate the idea of removing carrier/mothership and adding the tempest. I think an upgrade at fleet beacon that gives phoenixes splash damage would be way better. I don't even know if even that is necessary with mass recall on nexus.
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On December 13 2011 05:45 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +There was only one answer to mass muta play, and it was redesigning the phoenix so that spotting a spire and dropping a stargate would discourage the zerg player from going on with mass mutas. so basically you want mutas to becoma a gimmick unit. Thats the problem with the "hardcounter". It is not only good against ah huuuuuuge number of mutas, but also against small numbers. So mutas would just become a non issue and even a brain dead monkey could deal with them.
Are void rays a gimmick unit because hydas hardcounter them?
No, I want mutas to be a unit you transition into, and then out of after they have had their use and have been countered effectively. Right now if you get to mutalisks and have around 16 of them, what do you do (vs protoss)? You just keep making more and more and more and more, because the more you get, the less the chance the protoss can do absolutely anything about it. How is this a proper way to play? The whole game resolves around understanding what your opponent does, and reacting in consequence -> making the units that deal the most effective way against what the enemy is preparing. The problem with mutas is that once you scout your opponent is going for them, your only realistic chance to win is to strike immediately and go all in for the kill. Fail that and you are dead, turtle in your base and he'll get to 40+ mutas without no chance for you to survive, let alone strike back (that is of course provided the zerg is not brain dead and keeps his flock standing still between 6 cannons and 1 storm templar).
The game I imagine, the zerg goes for mutas and if you scout it with good timing you can prepare a phoenix defense; the zerg can use a few mutas to harass but in the end has to transition to something else, just like you will have to do with your phoenix (and just like you have to do if you go void rays and the zerg gets hydras in time).
Also, in a long, macro game, the zerg has the benefit to be able to instantly switch from, say, roach/ling into a flock of mutas (let's say the zerg has 3 bases) and use them to strongly harass and slow down the protoss, which will obviously have a hard time pumping out phoenixes at the same rate the zerg pumps out mutas, BUT at least the protoss will have a chance to defend himself with a proper unit, not resorting to stalker+sentry+high templer+archon.
As the guy above me said, it's also a way to force a certain strategy from your enemy. Make mutas and force him to get phoenix, then switch to hydras and let's see if he can get colossi fast enough to defend himself. This is how you should play, not sit in your base while harassing with 20 units and waiting till you get 40 of them
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The solution is quite simple:
*Mutas acceleration speed must be decreased by 50%.
*Mutas speed must be decresed, i'd say, by 10-15%.
*Mutas ground attack must be decreased by 30-35%
Ones mutas arise it's impossible for terran to:
1. Make drops
2. Leave base.
The absolutely same for protoss. Just sit here and hope for really good future army/base trade for you.
All the eggheads, who suggest Archons, or Thors or whatsoever, to counter mutas, can try by themselves to catch muta's stack, flying around your 2-3 bases, and then tell us how successful it was.
Good luck.
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On December 13 2011 07:59 Jimbo77 wrote:
The solution is quite simple:
*Mutas acceleration speed must be decreased by 50%.
*Mutas speed must be decresed, i'd say, by 10-15%.
*Mutas ground attack must be decreased by 30-35%
Ones mutas arise it's impossible for terran to:
1. Make drops
2. Leave base.
The absolutely same for protoss. Just sit here and hope for really good future army/base trade for you.
All the eggheads, who suggest Archon's, or Thor's or whatsoever, to counter mutas, can try by themselves to catch muta's stack, flying around your 2-3 bases, and then tell us how successful it was.
Good luck.
Thors, turrets and marines are an imperfect solution, but it's a lot better than the protoss situation.
Imagine the thor had range 3, the turrets fire slower, can't be repaired and cost more and you have the protoss situation.
Nerfing mutas is a poor solution in my mind. Fixing the other races weakness is by far prefereable for the simple reason that mutalisks are great fun to watch.
Mutas should shut down drops in the same way vikings and pheonix should shut down drops. that's what they intended to do!
Leaving base is a different issue. It should be possible to invest in some defense and then be able to push out. This IS possible against < 20 mutas, but once the muta count gets to 30+ you either have to leavel half your army behind or it's a base race and a decent zerg will place bases in teh far courners of the map. If you split your army the mutas will kill the smallest parts and then kill your base.
No amount of turrets or cannons can stop 30+ mutas
Giving turrets and cannons spalsh damage vs air, even as a late game upgrade, would effectively fix this. I don't know what the flow on effect of this would be, but it would certainly help the mass muta problem.
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Btw in that game with MC vs DRG
MC was able to survive for an incredibly long time with like 1/4 the supply of DRG if that doesn't tell you something than it shows how ridiculously hard it is to kill a Protoss when they have a few cannons up and HT's ,Sentries, Blink Stalkers.
They can utilize ramps and survive for a very long time when forcing a Zerg to go through choke points.
DRG had a ton of mutas and was still having trouble finishing MC off. MC's control was just superb and shows off exactly how strong a Protoss even with less than half of the supply can combat a Zerg army.
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As the banned guy said before, cannons for protoss are just totally ineffective no matter what, for 2 reasons.
N. 1 is that they are dependant on pylons, you can have 200 cannons with splash damage, but they would still need a huge number of pylons to make sure they last long enough to deal any damage.
N. 2 you can cannon-protect your mineral lines but that won't stop mutas from taking down the whole of your production building, by sniping either pylons or the building themselves. You can't honestly put cannons in ALL your mineral lines and in ALL your main base to protect every single thing you have, that would be thousands of minerals worth of cannons, you do need to get an army up you know.
Short of drastically nerfing the mutas, which I'm not a big fan of either, the only effective solution is giving P and T units that counter them. Please note that Thors and Phoenix SHOULD already be muta counters, check your stacraft 2 in game guide under "mutas" and "weak against". The problem is they are simply not working.
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