EPTNot to mention that if Zerg does the now pretty standard 3 hatch before lair thing then mutas come at what? the fourteen minute mark?
[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 81
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
Not to mention that if Zerg does the now pretty standard 3 hatch before lair thing then mutas come at what? the fourteen minute mark? | ||
|
Meff
Italy287 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:32 InVerno wrote: Ok, so for a ingame-physics problem we will add two units (blindy?) and remove two aswell. Very clever, next time i need to climb up a ladder, i will jump off from a plane to reach the location. The ingame physics are customizable from the A to the Z, im pretty sure there're "half ways" viable to solve this problem without create another problem. Even if requires a bit of micro, when you oneshot a nexus and you laught at the "harass unit" description. But maybe blizzard prefers sell you the solution with an expansion... And.. hey... im not in rage with mutas.. 6gate in my league is the perfect solution to win against 2base mutas. I appreciate the sentiment, but when you are explained exactly what would need to be changed and why it would be a bad idea to change it, you shouldn't reply with, "I'm sure that there are other ways" unless you want to be completely non-constructive. This isn't a matter of wanting to go up the stairs. This is a matter of coming in and demanding a flying car made out of chocolate that gives great blowjobs, then being told why such a thing cannot/shouldn't exist, then saying that the objections are pointless because you're sure that there are ways to do it. And mind, all of the above doesn't even touch the fact that flying cars that are made out of chocolate and give great blowjobs are a terrible idea anyway. | ||
|
Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
Good luck one one base vs any type of aggresion from a zerg. In my opinion spores shouldnt be detection as well :D Spores shut down both abny type of DT rush and any early stargate play  | ||
|
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
How am I supposed to put pressure on zerg taking base after base, with 12 mutas flying around in the midgame? | ||
|
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
Btw here is the global race distribution per league: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Really not an overrepresentation, though one of the (slightly) better represented races[/QUOTE] Well call it what you want. There are more zergs in plat/diamond  Ty for the advice, I'll def check out the replays where I lost. I think I got impatient and tried to push out too early without enough base defence. It just frustrates me I have to sit in my own base for many minutes, and can't really expand. | ||
|
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On December 02 2011 20:15 Cirqueenflex wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2011 18:58 KingPwny wrote: What I don't like what mutas do in TvZ ( I am R5 PLAT terran player from EU) is that they force me in to 2 base situations where when I grab the 3rd, it's much harder for me to hold because I can't be aggressive while zergy has mutas. I have to struggle to keep 3 base. I have to split my marines and thors around my bases and hold off waves of mutas while losing workers and turrets. Zerg plats love their mutas. They make 30+ every single time (this normally comes after a 2 base roach/mass zergling play) Sounds like fun? It isn't :/ I am stuck in my base due to huge zerg aggression (if the zerg guy plays it right). Mutas force to me to think other strategies, which include killing the zerg player b4 he gets mutas. I have to play my top game to win, while I feel the zerg just pops his mutas in my 3rd/main every once in a while and A moves with his banelings and zerglings and then mutas. If the defence of my 3 bases is not flawless, along with my marine micro when i finally push out, I have lost. It makes for a very intense matchup where my defensive skills are constantly being tested (anyone who plays terran knows how micro intensive marine tank pushes are). Sure I do two pronged drop harasses in the midgame, but it's so easy for zerg player to pick off with mutas or defend with speedlings & spines. My helions are quite weak late game, unless I move out with literally 10. But then I am losing so much, without a gurantee of doing any dmg and when the mutas find the helions, it's goodbye 1000 minerals. How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around? And for those of u say, oh u shouildnt allow ur zerg player to get that. For me that means making a 8-9 min marine tank push or some kind of slightly cheesy 1 base play. Mutas give air control to zerg, and then terran loses all harass possiblities. Banshees, drophips etc. Muta is so cost effective harass with proper control, whereas my dropships getting sniped off are not. I have to literally send 3 dropships simultaneously to different locations do any kind of cost effective dmg. While this does work sometimes, it's such a gamble and really drains my APM. Mutas are not OP, but the way they are being used is kinda silly i.e. spam mutas (like literally 30), make mass banelings and zerglings and win or tech up to hive and have a good winrate against plat/diamond terrans (there is overrepresentation of zerg in diamond and lower). What are my choices? Defend like a friggin Thorzain for 20 mins and force myself to play perfectly, or wait...hmm that bunker rush or cheesy 1 base play does sound good now  2 port banshee anyone? YES PLZ! Rant over watch Leenock vs MVP GSL Semifinals Game 1 (you can watch Game 1 for free on GOM TV). MVP gets: a) 4 missile turrets on every mineral line b) a lot more thors than just one or two What happens? Muta harass does zero damage, also constantly dropping on both ends of the map still proves incredible effective, crippling Leenock's economy really hard (won't spoil the result, go watch the match). Basically, as soon as MVP had 3+ thors and his turrets, the mutas became sacrificial units to kill few vikings and clean up half of the drops (while on the other side of the map the second drop usually still did great damage) So you CAN shut down mutas completely and you don't have to be MVP to do so, just get the turrets and thors out. It is like terran player going for mass blue flame hellions and zerg player refusing to stray from his ling-only composition, it's not gonna work. For PvZ, i feel like protoss is just too greedy while not being greedy enough: I have rarely ever seen a protoss get 4-6 cannons on each mineral line plus at least one archon/HT with storm. They stop at 2, then 12 mutas fly in, kill the two cannons and protoss curses imbalance. Furthermore, since protoss have to sit at home with their army to defend their undefended Nexi, they could not get a third up. Just get a ton of cannons at your third, and without broodlords or many banelings zerg should not be able to take out your third (assuming you warp in sentries if necessary to FF). And yes, this cuts into your army, but as long as you have forcefields/archons/HT with storm/upgrade advantage on zealots (anything of those will do against muta ling (bling)), zerg usually will still have the weaker army in a direct confrontation. Haha ok I feel like a newbie now, cos I have a GomTV pass and was watching those games live. Uff what fantastic games they were!! But yes, I can see what you're saying. The only problem with this is that the plat zerg player WILL sacrifice some mutas even tho u have 4 turrets, as soon as I push out. So I guess I'll have to always leave some food behind in my own base (marines/thors) to defend it. | ||
|
DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On December 02 2011 23:02 KingPwny wrote: The only problem with this is that the plat zerg player WILL sacrifice some mutas even tho u have 4 turrets, as soon as I push out. Well, I'm not Plat but if you've got 4 well placed turrets in your mineral line I'll probably stay away unless I have a truly massive force of mutas. | ||
|
FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:09 Go1den wrote: What does this even mean? The best Protoss player in the world right now can't hold off mutas with the "proper" counters. You can come up with a better playground comeback than that. Try harder. LiquidHero is the best protoss in the world?You gotta be joking me. Hero did not play well in that game against crazymoving and crazy had great mutalisk control and severely crippled hero economy on 2 bases.Hero still made that game look close eventhough crazy still commited to mutas at late game when he should have transitioned to broodlords ultras or infestor. Please dun talk shit and say hero is the best protoss in the world right now.He is one of the TOP protoss but certainly not the best although his play looks really solid.People make mistakes dumbass. | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On December 03 2011 00:59 FakeDeath wrote: LiquidHero is the best protoss in the world?You gotta be joking me. Hero did not play well in that game against crazymoving and crazy had great mutalisk control and severely crippled hero economy on 2 bases.Hero still made that game look close eventhough crazy still commited to mutas at late game when he should have transitioned to broodlords ultras or infestor. Please dun talk shit and say hero is the best protoss in the world right now.He is one of the TOP protoss but certainly not the best although his play looks really solid.People make mistakes dumbass. HerO is: -a top Protoss -a fantastic multitasker -great at controlling units. All these things are great against Mutas. What happened? It's fairly simple. Mutalisks are too good in large numbers right now. What kept them honest in Broodwar was fantastic splash damage (Irradiate, Corsair) and the fact that controlling more than 11 was very, very difficult. Now, they're much harder to stack up, making them weaker in numbers less than 12, but you can control 20, 30, or even 50 just as well as you can control 10. There's also only one unit in the game that actually counters them: the Marine. Thors are good, but their main issue is how immobile they are. It allows the Zerg to gain an economic lead that allows them to just pummel their way through, as economic leads ought to allow you to do. Protoss has no counter to moderate or high Mutalisk counts that are controlled with anything approaching reasonable skill. Storm deals too little burst damage to be effective, Stalkers get weaker the higher the army sizes get (because not every Stalker can be attacking at once), Archons simply don't splash enough before getting taken out, and Phoenix are terrible against Mutas unless you have an equal or higher Phoenix count (and then just fold to Corruptors). Please note, the issue isn't being able to crush Mutas in a straight-up fight. Most of the counters I've listed are able to do that. The issue is being able to defend against Mutas without ceding all map control to the Zerg. That's why I listed Irradiate and Corsairs as counters to BW Mutas: both are flying, and so both can wander around as easily as the Mutas to deal them a blow they can't really recover from. If you could load an Archon into a Phoenix, I wouldn't be complaining (despite the obvious cost-inefficiency of it), because that is exactly what is needed to counter Mutas. This is why I'm mostly glad to see the Tempest, as it is a flying unit designed to stop Mutalisks. Of course, if it's Mothership slow, we're back to square one... | ||
|
GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
I'n ZvP, it is a pain to deal with muta harass, and mass ling/ muta is definitely difficult to deal with but it is not impossible. I dont play terran, but it looks like muta are pretty strong in that matchup, pvz... not as much. | ||
|
lololol
5198 Posts
On December 03 2011 01:30 Acritter wrote: HerO is: -a top Protoss -a fantastic multitasker -great at controlling units. All these things are great against Mutas. What happened? What happened? The worst storms I have EVER seen. Tons and tons of storms that were wasted, some of which quite a distance away from the mutas and we're talking about an instant cast spell here. Just one example: mutas charge towards a cannon and the response: storm is placed on top of the cannon, just wtf? | ||
|
Meff
Italy287 Posts
On December 03 2011 01:30 Acritter wrote:Phoenix are terrible against Mutas unless you have an equal or higher Phoenix count (and then just fold to Corruptors). Phoenixes win again mutalisks when outnumbered 2:3, actually, and cannot be forced to engage. I also think that, "This counters this, but is in turn countered by this other switch so it doesn't really work" is recognized as fallacious. If not, then let me field stalkers against those corruptors. | ||
|
zJayy962
1363 Posts
On December 02 2011 22:57 KingPwny wrote: How am I supposed to put pressure on zerg taking base after base, with 12 mutas flying around in the midgame? Build extra turrets or cannons with the thousands of minerals you're floating. | ||
|
zJayy962
1363 Posts
On December 02 2011 21:17 Tommylew wrote: love the reponses saying that protoss just play too greedy lol. What stay on one base and let the zerg take their natural and be behind anyway? lol Then when you take a third they are already taking the fourth/fifth.. yeh pressure but the minute you pressure or try some kind of push ort rush that is stopped you then instanly lose. Good luck one one base vs any type of aggresion from a zerg. In my opinion spores shouldnt be detection as well :D Spores shut down both abny type of DT rush and any early stargate play Can we please leave bullshit like this out of Team Liquid? | ||
|
Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On December 03 2011 02:51 zJayy962 wrote: Can we please leave bullshit like this out of Team Liquid? No he's totally right. And why don't they buff phoenix ? So I can ffe into double stargate and win every pvz ... And protoss units are so cost inefficient. That's why we (protoss) need to be one base ahead or on equal base to win. And they need to buff gateway units. Because i can't win enough games with x wg push. Come on. I saw a protoss against fruitdealer who faceraped his muta opening. As soon as his obs scout the spire, he throws 3stargate and pump phoenix. Fd's muta were murdered. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Muta can be beaten in a straight up fight. The problem is that the protoss can get into a situtation where they are unable to force the zerg to do so. I don't know if this in inbalanced or not. The game has to end at some point. However, a style of gameplay where the whole point is to avoid combat or a straight up fight may not be the SC 2 we all want to play. I know I don't. | ||
|
Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On December 03 2011 03:00 Erasme wrote: No he's totally right. And why don't they buff phoenix ? So I can ffe into double stargate and win every pvz ... And protoss units are so cost inefficient. That's why we (protoss) need to be one base ahead or on equal base to win. And they need to buff gateway units. Because i can't win enough games with x wg push. Come on. I saw a protoss against fruitdealer who faceraped his muta opening. As soon as his obs scout the spire, he throws 3stargate and pump phoenix. Fd's muta were murdered. Great logic! The thing with mutas is that it is much easier to make and use mutas then to defend against them, much the same way as it is much harder for a terran to deal with chargelot archon than it is to do that build. Assuming both players have low (sub-GM) multitasking, mutas destroy protoss. But at a certain level of multitasking and control from both players, it is a very even fight. In high level play, muta/ling wins maybe slightly over 50% of games, but as a new strategy, that is logical. At my low level (high plat), I can't even deal with mutas even if Z has a worse economy than me and I make the "counters". It's entirely my fault because I'm awful at dealing with mutas, but it is still frustrating to see this type of whining about a matchup that is very difficult for both sides. Perhaps you should offrace some, that's when I learned that the other races weren't stupid, just dealing with difficulties for them. EDIT: I'd like to note that I don't really like the new anti muta units for HOTS because they dont force apm or skill in usage. Protoss already has to many units and compositions whose best micro is 1a | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 02 2011 23:00 KingPwny wrote: Btw here is the global race distribution per league: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Really not an overrepresentation, though one of the (slightly) better represented races Well call it what you want. There are more zergs in plat/diamond Ty for the advice, I'll def check out the replays where I lost. I think I got impatient and tried to push out too early without enough base defence. It just frustrates me I have to sit in my own base for many minutes, and can't really expand. [/QUOTE] well, the point is, that in a well balanced game it often becomes like that and it isn't less frustrating as a zerg to crush some tank/marine push and then you know you're far ahead and still know you will have to play for another 7-8mins at least if your opponent plays safe until you have a reasonable chance to push (with broodlords) and so you have to take 2-3 expansions until that time and build up a certain mutacount to be safe and still just defend against drops because you can't attack into a sieged position... Trust me, I threw SO MANY games away just by going for impatient baneling busts with 50% more supply... See it as part of being in a higher league: you have less options, because your opponents are good! On December 03 2011 01:36 GreEny K wrote: I may be in the minority here, but I do think that mutas can be OP in ZvT depending on the situation. I'm a Protoss player, so this is all observation. I notice that if a zerg and terran trade armies and the terran loses enough units, the zerg will mass muta and then go from base to base and wreck everything. And at that point the terran cannot rebuild units quickly enough to effectively deal with the muta, as there are too many. I'n ZvP, it is a pain to deal with muta harass, and mass ling/ muta is definitely difficult to deal with but it is not impossible. I dont play terran, but it looks like muta are pretty strong in that matchup, pvz... not as much. substitute mutalisk with stalker, marine, tank, colossus, void ray, infestor or broodlord and it will always be the same... Certain units really put the hurt on the other player at least in sepcific matchups and every race has some of them. Mutalisks are one of them, but if you ever saw a good blinkstalker play in PvZ off even supply (so the protoss has an advantage), it becomes close to impossible to ever kill this army off as long as protoss keeps on engaging, because 80supply blink stalkers > 80 supply of any zerg army composition that has neither mass infestor or mass broodlords (which are both not viable in a disadvantage situation, due to costs) The same is true for tank/marine: If zerg screws up one engagement, he has to send wave and wave again against the same army until it dies (if it even dies) just to get crushed by a follow up evensized push. It's a simple thing: you screw up, you are in trouble! On December 02 2011 22:57 KingPwny wrote: How am I supposed to put pressure on zerg taking base after base, with 12 mutas flying around in the midgame? Well then don't. Noone apart from some TL scrubs is telling you that you must put pressure on a zerg... If Zerg opens any form of reasonable with mutalisks (2base, 3rd base not finishing before mutalisks pop), it will take him to around the 12min mark to hit his 70-80 drone count. At that time you should have 3-4OCs at 3bases with ~60scvs+mules. Congratulations, you're even in ecnomy without ever attacking. People really have to get over the "you have to do pressure against zerg" stuff. It's simply wrong. It has to be called "you have to do pressure against ANY macroing opponent, or play a build that macros itself!". (though I'm not sure if for a protoss player such builds are really viable... at least there are hardly any players around that play such stuff) | ||
|
Marcuz
31 Posts
| ||
|
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On December 03 2011 02:44 zJayy962 wrote: Build extra turrets or cannons with the thousands of minerals you're floating. Well I'm not floating 1k minerals . You assume I have bad macro? | ||
| ||
