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On December 02 2011 02:16 Cillas wrote:
i got a solution, its scary and very experimental, as far as i know, it wouldnt change at all in tvz, maybe some in zvz but in pvz without breaking alot.
Make Muta Ground attack only, this seems strange and many Zerg would complain but what may will happen
TvZ - Terran almost never really answer with air to muta, maybe some vikings but this would make the matchup more dimensional, because muta are faster
ZvZ - The only real situation that would change is muta against muta, this may decrease the muta to a period harass low count unit but is that so bad at all?
PvZ - The Toss now can answer with phoenix to muta harass, it even would make it risky for the zerg to mass just to 40+ muta and then loose it all to 6 or 7 phoenix -> gives the matchup more dimension.
Anything else (change to damage, hp, bounce), would be to much (esp. in the tvz matchup). This even would deny the need for the tempest.
/discuss
Are you dumb or what??? This would broke the entire Zerg metagame. ZvT would switch to only infestors and would be extremely predictable, in ZvP Void ray phoenix would become quite strong since zerg doesn't have a really good anti-air besides infestors so the matchup would be dull and finally ZvZ would be the fucking derpest matchup ever... Rush lair go spire and then muta ling base race both sides? Herp derp since no one can kill the other guy mutas it would be like a banshee vs banshee build without marines.
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On December 01 2011 22:30 Exarian wrote:Show nested quote +
oh yea, and that won't be overpowered at all. (extreme sarcasm)
so basicly, the carrier would deal more damage than a sieged tanks anti-armoured attack to all unit types, in the same splashrange to air and ground, with faster attackspeed (yes, the interceptor volley is faster than the sieged tanks attack) with more hitpoints and its flying and can move while attacking, can send its interceptors out at range 12 (1 less than the sieged tank) and the interceptors dont return until they are 14 range away (1 more than the tank), and have better upgrade-scaling.
balanced.
you know what, I'll calculate how much the carrier should cost for it to be balanced with these changes:
lets use a template: a tank:
150/125 : 3 supply
lets say the carriers attack is twice as good as the tanks is:
real value: (300/250 : 5 supply) to be nice value: (200/200 : 5 supply)
lets say the carriers flying ability makes its movement 1.5 times better:
real value: (450/400 : 7 supply) to be nice value: (300/300 : 7 supply)
lets say the carriers hitpoints are 2.5 times that of a tank:
real value: (1300/1000 : 17 supply) to be nice value: (750/750 : 9 supply)
so if you also tripled (or, if I feel nice, just doubled) the cost of the carrier (leaving the production time the same) then I might agree to make the changes you suggested, notice almost all of the calculations above were rounded down.
oh, and Im going to ignore that thing about interceptor shields since protoss shields dont regenerate in combat.
or if you meant they regenerate constantly, then fuck no. that would mean they almost out-regen a hydralisk attacking it.
First of all, none unit's in game cost x times more then other unit because is x times better then this unit... Second: Carriers in this situation are still easy to counter by lower-tier Corruptors, Vikings, Void Rays etc... Third: Regen should work all-time, it basically mean you should focus on killing host instead of sniping interceptors Fourth: Even if Splash value is too big (but still anything below 1.0 will be useless), it is justified by units tier and number of useful counters Fifth: It is far more useful and interesting then Tempest Sixth: It is fixing Toss lategame problems with mutas.
1. I never claimed there were, however, if I were to calculate the cost of a theoretical unit I would take the template of another unit which seems pretty close, and calculate it from there, as I did.
example: if I were to theorycraft about a new unit, lets say a unit called baneling, then I would take a unit that is close to it, zergling, and say: the baneling is approximatly 3 times better than the zergling, thus it should cost about 3 times more.
zergling: (25/0) baneling: (50/25)
2. no, carriers with splash are not easily countered, in my experience from the HOTS mod (which has all numbers from the blizzcon) 3 tempests beat 15 corruptors, guess why: splash, thats why. and notice that the tempest deals bonus damage to light, not armoured. having splash is huge.
3. I concede this point, but insist that they do not need permanent 20 shield regen, it seems too much and still would not help against marines sniping them (assuming the marines live through the first wave of splash damage).
4. nothing is justified by being a high tier. for your information, the ultralisk requires 5 buildings to be built before it can be used, the broodlord requires 6 if you count greater spire and spire to be different buildings, else 5, the only units in the game to rival these tech levels are battlecruiser (requires 5 buildings and a techlab, 4 if you don't count the supply depot) and mothership/carrier (requires 5 buildings, 4 if you dont count pylon), the ultralisk I can admit that it costs much less than broodlord/battlecruiser/mothership/carrier and thus should be worse than them, but the broodlord costs pretty much the same amount for clearly worse stats.
nothing is justified by being high tier.
5. I concede this point.
6.1 I personally don't agree that there is such a problem
6.2 only to introduce a bigger problem for terran and zerg with carriers
mutas are not overpowered, they are among the weakest units in the game cost for cost and supply for supply, they happen to be fast and they happen to be flying, and thats the only positive factors of the unit, and phoenixes (which deal massive amounts of damage to flying light units) are even faster than mutas.
this discussion is extremely pointless and I could very easily make a thread named "[D]Are <insert unit> overpowered in WOL?" and as long as I mentioned a unit which is fairly much used in any matchup I will most certainly have at least a dozen people join the bandwagon.
months back, before zergs started using infestors, zergs all over the world were having enormous trouble with the colossus deathball. to beat it you needed surgical precission in the ratio between roach/hydra and corruptors, and being wrong either way by a few corruptors meant an instant loss. and zergs whined, and they whined and they whined, and blizzard did absolutely nothing to the colossus, which was described as the big bad boy in the drama, and then suddenly zegrs started playing differently, and suddenly colossus were not as big of a problem anymore, and to this day the stats of the deathball have not been changed (except for blink research time and similar minor things) and yet its not a problem for zergs of today.
mutas are not overpowered.
im sorry to say this, but don't argue, it won't help, learn to play, that will.
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On December 02 2011 02:50 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 23:22 Daray wrote:On December 01 2011 22:44 SafeAsCheese wrote:On December 01 2011 21:13 Daray wrote:On December 01 2011 20:58 KimJongChill wrote:
I'm surprised that this thread is as long as it is. Aren't templars an appropriate 'counter'? Mutalisks are strong if one is caught off guard, but then again, most things should be. I feel like with the appropriate scouting and preparation, mutalisks can be rendered pretty ineffective. People who say this have never played PvZ against good players. Sure, storm is good but it's not really a counter even if you know the mutas are coming. People who say this think that pulling their 10 templar with them to attack is a good idea. Leave around 4-5 cannons at each mineral line with 2 templar to storm then morph into an archon and the mutas don't even get close. If they do, congrats, the bulk of the zergs attack force (muta) just lost around 1/2 it's hp. When you have 40-50 blink stalkers with your main army, you need very very few archons and templar to support, just enough to storm and potential banelings or mass zerglings. There is a REASON erg who go muta almost always go for a base trade, it's because the army composition is very very weak in a sight up battle against protoss. Learn to leave static defense, even if it means 2-4k minerals in your base. Once you move out with the deathball, if your base is safe, you just won. This is EXACTLY how SanZenith beat NesTea back when NesTea was never losing, using Kydarian Amulet storm warpin to defend against muta builds without effort. I guess there's a reason this thread is still going strong :D The point of going muta is not to kill you but to take 5 bases, tech to everything while keeping the protoss on 2 bases... when you have to get blink, ht+storm and 4-5 cannon on each mineral line it's quite easy for the zerg to take the map. 40-50 blink stalkers is many blink stalker yes? If you are not good enough to take a third when mutas are out, you have no basis to even argue balance. Taking a 4th is entirely different due to maps, but holy shit if you are crying about being stuck on 2 base.
Taking the third isn't the issue, it can be done. The problem is that the zerg is usually on 5 bases by that time and you've already lost because you're doing the Chinese fire drill with your stalkers to defend against the harass.
Toss has the problem of not being able to threaten anything by moving out and trying to attack - the wall of spines & muta mobility cause this to be an idle threat, and zerg is free to drone and saturate their tech.
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On October 25 2011 18:25 UnholyRai wrote:
speaking as a diamond protoss player I can say that the problem with mutas in p v z is the following:
1) If you don't have a critical mass of pheonix, mutas completely wreck them.
2) High templar storms can be easily dodged by the fast moving muta, and then you're screwed
3) Archons have tiny range of 3, it is incredibly easy to dodge them with mutas.
4) It is incredibly difficult to defend against MASS muta with stalker, because if you keep your whole stalker ball together mutas can simply fly to a location where your stalkers aren't. You need to often "get lucky" with a blink to catch the mutas. If you split up your stalkers, a MASS ball of mutas can outright kill them.
Personally, I don't even like the tempest, i would prefer a range buff to air for archons as a fix for the muta problem.
You are very far behind if zerg has enough money to buy that many mutas without you being able to scare them off with 8 warped in stalkers or something. Stalkers for example, can make your HTs effective
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btw if someprotoss hasn't seen THIS thread, it should at least help up to high master league to get a good idea how to deal with mutalisks. (though I guess noone can give you a win garantue just by following those suggestions... you still have to play well)
Some cornerstones of this guide:
-) take the third rather early
-) templar > archons
-) low focus on sentries early (which imo should be a general PvZ rule if you're not going to 6gate allin)
-) static defenses and 1 HT in every mineral line
-) harassment with zealots and/or dts, best done when mutas are entering your base
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On December 02 2011 03:04 Roblin wrote:
mutas are not overpowered, they are among the weakest units in the game cost for cost and supply for supply, they happen to be fast and they happen to be flying, and thats the only positive factors of the unit, and phoenixes (which deal massive amounts of damage to flying light units) are even faster than mutas.
this discussion is extremely pointless and I could very easily make a thread named "[D]Are <insert unit> overpowered in WOL?" and as long as I mentioned a unit which is fairly much used in any matchup I will most certainly have at least a dozen people join the bandwagon.
months back, before zergs started using infestors, zergs all over the world were having enormous trouble with the colossus deathball. to beat it you needed surgical precission in the ratio between roach/hydra and corruptors, and being wrong either way by a few corruptors meant an instant loss. and zergs whined, and they whined and they whined, and blizzard did absolutely nothing to the colossus, which was described as the big bad boy in the drama, and then suddenly zegrs started playing differently, and suddenly colossus were not as big of a problem anymore, and to this day the stats of the deathball have not been changed (except for blink research time and similar minor things) and yet its not a problem for zergs of today.
mutas are not overpowered.
im sorry to say this, but don't argue, it won't help, learn to play, that will.
The problem isn't muta itself, but rather the big muta balls which makes them a lot more effective.
I think Coffee Zombie said it the best at the 65 page in this thread:
On November 09 2011 05:20 Coffee Zombie wrote:
@Fuhrmaaj: Sanity, where art thou?
Thor timings? Where? When the unit's only raison détre in the first place is to shoo away Mutalisks? And does a rather bad job at that? Yeah, the Thor scales badly. 6-food superexpensive ground units are just a bad design idea, period. Warhounds fix that. Faster, more AoE so Mutas might actually be scared of something other than flying over Marines once in a while.
Marines, making mutas useless. Yessir. Every time Mutas engage directly and alone. In other words, basically never. The whole reason the unit is a problem is that it's supremely mobile and can hit everything. It means big muta balls end up erasing the unit's core flaw of inefficiency. Too much power in one spot. Even if the enemy can pack more with, say, Marines, they can never catch the Mutas. Overwhelming force that fears nothing but the opposing army, always where the opposing army is not.
It's not that the unit is overpowered. Small Muta wolfpacks are excellent. But the bad design just ends up erasing the unit's core flaw in huge clouds. It's why you see big muta clouds, and not tons of Banshees or Phoenixes, even if they might be theoretically better. Their weaknesses are not solved by massing up. That fundamental design flaw forces ugly counterdesigns like Warhounds and the Tempest. You just can't put the fear in muta clouds without brutal, instant AoE.
Ugly as they are, I welcome the Tempest and Warhound. It hopefully means mutas will act like Banshees and Phoenix - either as small harassing forces and/or as a component of a normal army, not as marauding hypermobile deathballs.
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On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it.
+9999
I really hope some smart man from blizz can read this thread.
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On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it.
-cannons: by mathcraft they are worthless, in practice, they provide the edge required to sufficiently shut down muta harrass.
My explanation - If Z has mutas, they have map control, so pushing out is going to get you killed if you step on creep. This is the same mechanic as if P has blink stalkers and Z pushes out of their base without map control. What do you do if you dont have map control? stay safe and expand. Map control costs $ and time, if you sink less than half of his investment into map control into static D to defend yourself while you expand, you are ahead.
I dont have the same credentials to back me up, but TL is a place of debate based on strength of the debate being made, not of the debater.
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In my opinion, the warhound is replacing the thor because at the moment, the "counter" (read: "only chance to not suffer a painful lose to"  ) mech play in ZvT is the mutalisk, but if you make even one mistake, you still lose horribly. The warhound will, in theory, negate mutalisks faster (in smaller numbers) than thors and make roaches more viable. Warhounds + tanks + battle hellions will be the new mech, and roaches (and possibly swarm lords) will be the "logical" response. I don't like this, because roaches tend to clump up and get fried by tanks and large swarms of hellions alike (assuming good hellion micro), and swarm lords appear as though scans + anything will hard counter them (I'm only half joking :/).
As for the tempest, large clouds of mutalisks do massive amounts of damage to clumps of units, and tempests are supposed to somehow be the answer. I don't really get this one, because "capital ship" and "carrier will be removed" suggests that the tempest will be absurdly expensive/slow/hard to get enough of. Mutalisks are fast and die to...well, anything really--blink stalkers and HTs readily come to mind, and the transition (if you can call it that) is smooth and "logical." But, who knows, perhaps air play w/ oracles and/or pheonix/void ray harass-> tempests to deal with the "logical" mutalisk response will become popular.
I guess we'll see eventually...either way, it should be exciting to see the new builds/unit comps that will be invented. :D
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Mutas in ZvT are awesome. They are hard to use, but just shy of imbalanced in the right hands. I think the muta nerf there is more to change the status quo than anything.
Mutas in ZvP are kind of imbalanced. Not extremely so, as they still need to be used well, but it's kind of like the ghost quandary. When you're good enough to use them right, it is extremely difficult for your opponent to win. Unfortunately, I do not feel the Tempest, a capital ship, is the solution due to the principles of a capital ship, like extreme expense, time to produce and especially slow speed. Protoss needs a counter that can be moblised quicker and not get destroyed like phoenixes. Protoss can already kill mutas a thousand and one ways, they just can't catch up.
Mutas in ZvZ are just shy of... well... bad. They are harder to use than mutas in ZvT, and have a narrower timing.
Overall, I feel that the muta nerf in ZvT is stupid unless they intend to substitute it with another playstyle that takes skill to use but offers extreme reward (something we kind of need more of in this game) amd that the muta nerf in ZvP is necessary, but Blizzard is not doing it right.
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On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it.
Maybe in HotS you could experiment with an air-based harass style? If you aren't going to get Tempests/phoenixes without thinking that you can use them beyond killing mutas, figure out a way to use them beyond killing mutas. I mean, harass based styles seem to be impenetrable these days. I see mutas being used successfully in all 3 matchups, even against Protoss who everyone thought they could use their billion and one counters to murder them.
The Protoss deathball is the most figured out build in the history of figured out builds. Maybe in HotS you can move on.
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On December 02 2011 02:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it. So I think you are pretty much right nearly everything you write, but I would like to ask you some questions here: 1) The international winrates in PvZ were 57:43 before mutalisks got popular and even with mutalisk play starting in october the winrate hasn't changed for that month. (though I think we will have to wait for the november winrates to really see the impact of muta play). But this suggests, that Zerg was already favored in this matchup and in my opinion it is rather "just another way" to kill Protoss that has a deeper reason than "the mutalisk vs Protoss". do you agree on this? 2) Do you feel like Protoss really have figuered "the best way" to deal with mutalisks? Because we still see a lot of different approaches from a lot of players (from mediocre things like the "stormtemplar or archon" - debate to specific timing attacks and double stargate preventive or reactive play) it often feels to me like the Protoss players often just don't really have a clue how to react to them to start with, while I feel like every prolevel terran just knows how to play vs mutalisks and ususally can just point at certain events in a game where he says: "that's what I did wrong". 3) I know this is just my theory - and I'm not a protoss player, only master zerg, maybe platinum protoss ^^ - but for me it always seems like Protoss FFE vs 3base play relies on doing damage and then expanding again, no matter what a zerg does. In my opinion this is always the defining moment in the game if the mutaplay will (statistically speaking) work or not. I don't know... but for me this feels like nothing has really changed apart from zerg now not going infestor/broodlord after this, but muta/ling and in both scenarios only losing when he screws up (because he has a rather big ecnomic advantage from having up to 50% more income for quite some minutes at the time when zerg has well saturated 3bases and protoss not even starting his third yet). And now my question? Don't you think that you're still facing the same problem like before mutalisks --> taking the third too late? (no matter if it is doable or not, just from a theoretical point) To exaggerate on this: PvZ was Protoss favored as long as it was 2base vs 2base play (up to 57:43 for Protoss). TvZ is a game on even bases (most of the time - some styles like ling+upgrades get faster thirds and fourths but sacrifice all tech for it) until the zerg gets his 4th up and this matchup has never been zerg favored (in fact it is the only matchup that always had one race - terran - being slightly favored over the other race, independent of the metagame). 4) don't you think that mutaplay being viable/balanced is very mapdepend? (just like small maps favor terran, maps with huge airspaces around bases and long ground distances favor mutalisks) I don't know, but generally speaking, I think zerg is favored in this matchup with or without mutalisks (in the current metagame), it's rather just that mutalisks really let you "feel" this, because in a deathball vs broodlords (of bigger zerg economy) game it often comes down to protoss having the "coinflip" possibility of winning the game by only 1time not screwing up while zerg screws up.
Really good points.
1)
It seems to me winrates are too broad. Protoss could win 70% of the total games, but muta builds win 100% of the time they are used. It would be nice to see a "shift" in the win loss, but without details it's kind of pointless. If the protoss metagame was to all in before the mutas pop for instance won't tell you if there is an issue with mutas. It'll just "look" like a lot of protoss 2 base plays. (naniwa anyone?)
2)
I think generally speaking protoss vs ground based zerg armies work fine due to the punching power of immortals, FF control, colossus and zealots all working really well vs all ground options for zerg. The part where things go bad are when flying units come into play. be it brood lords or mutalisk things get difficult. Broodlords can be dealt with by the mothership, terrain use and blink or voidrays.
Is the weak point the lack of carrier use? If you remove the colossus from the ground force suddenly the ground battle becomes a nightmare.
3)
And yes, FFE without pressure is a bad build. it's just bad. most zergs now park an OL on the attack path and get 2 lings for scouting then just macro like crazy. if a protoss isn't doing something really agressive as soon as possible they are in big trouble. Personally I think the problem stems from the inabilty for protoss to do a gasless expand and not just die to ranged units. To gasless expand you must have a forge and it's hard to attack with cannons. The "problem" would be solved by making cannons require gateway instead of forge, but that creates it's own problems. As it is the time between "showing" a FFE to when you can do any sort of attack at all it too long.
4)
I don't think the map matters. Once the mutas are up in "enough" numbers you're screwed. Some maps it's harder for zerg to stay alive long enough to get enough mutas, but I once they are up I can't think of a single map which would be "bad" for mass muta.
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On December 02 2011 12:32 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it. So I think you are pretty much right nearly everything you write, but I would like to ask you some questions here: 1) The international winrates in PvZ were 57:43 before mutalisks got popular and even with mutalisk play starting in october the winrate hasn't changed for that month. (though I think we will have to wait for the november winrates to really see the impact of muta play). But this suggests, that Zerg was already favored in this matchup and in my opinion it is rather "just another way" to kill Protoss that has a deeper reason than "the mutalisk vs Protoss". do you agree on this? 2) Do you feel like Protoss really have figuered "the best way" to deal with mutalisks? Because we still see a lot of different approaches from a lot of players (from mediocre things like the "stormtemplar or archon" - debate to specific timing attacks and double stargate preventive or reactive play) it often feels to me like the Protoss players often just don't really have a clue how to react to them to start with, while I feel like every prolevel terran just knows how to play vs mutalisks and ususally can just point at certain events in a game where he says: "that's what I did wrong". 3) I know this is just my theory - and I'm not a protoss player, only master zerg, maybe platinum protoss ^^ - but for me it always seems like Protoss FFE vs 3base play relies on doing damage and then expanding again, no matter what a zerg does. In my opinion this is always the defining moment in the game if the mutaplay will (statistically speaking) work or not. I don't know... but for me this feels like nothing has really changed apart from zerg now not going infestor/broodlord after this, but muta/ling and in both scenarios only losing when he screws up (because he has a rather big ecnomic advantage from having up to 50% more income for quite some minutes at the time when zerg has well saturated 3bases and protoss not even starting his third yet). And now my question? Don't you think that you're still facing the same problem like before mutalisks --> taking the third too late? (no matter if it is doable or not, just from a theoretical point) To exaggerate on this: PvZ was Protoss favored as long as it was 2base vs 2base play (up to 57:43 for Protoss). TvZ is a game on even bases (most of the time - some styles like ling+upgrades get faster thirds and fourths but sacrifice all tech for it) until the zerg gets his 4th up and this matchup has never been zerg favored (in fact it is the only matchup that always had one race - terran - being slightly favored over the other race, independent of the metagame). 4) don't you think that mutaplay being viable/balanced is very mapdepend? (just like small maps favor terran, maps with huge airspaces around bases and long ground distances favor mutalisks) I don't know, but generally speaking, I think zerg is favored in this matchup with or without mutalisks (in the current metagame), it's rather just that mutalisks really let you "feel" this, because in a deathball vs broodlords (of bigger zerg economy) game it often comes down to protoss having the "coinflip" possibility of winning the game by only 1time not screwing up while zerg screws up. Really good points. 1) It seems to me winrates are too broad. Protoss could win 70% of the total games, but muta builds win 100% of the time they are used. It would be nice to see a "shift" in the win loss, but without details it's kind of pointless. If the protoss metagame was to all in before the mutas pop for instance won't tell you if there is an issue with mutas. It'll just "look" like a lot of protoss 2 base plays. (naniwa anyone?) 2) I think generally speaking protoss vs ground based zerg armies work fine due to the punching power of immortals, FF control, colossus and zealots all working really well vs all ground options for zerg. The part where things go bad are when flying units come into play. be it brood lords or mutalisk things get difficult. Broodlords can be dealt with by the mothership, terrain use and blink or voidrays. Is the weak point the lack of carrier use? If you remove the colossus from the ground force suddenly the ground battle becomes a nightmare. 3) And yes, FFE without pressure is a bad build. it's just bad. most zergs now park an OL on the attack path and get 2 lings for scouting then just macro like crazy. if a protoss isn't doing something really agressive as soon as possible they are in big trouble. Personally I think the problem stems from the inabilty for protoss to do a gasless expand and not just die to ranged units. To gasless expand you must have a forge and it's hard to attack with cannons. The "problem" would be solved by making cannons require gateway instead of forge, but that creates it's own problems. As it is the time between "showing" a FFE to when you can do any sort of attack at all it too long. 4) I don't think the map matters. Once the mutas are up in "enough" numbers you're screwed. Some maps it's harder for zerg to stay alive long enough to get enough mutas, but I once they are up I can't think of a single map which would be "bad" for mass muta.
Still there are men who understand, that the whole winrate statistic is a bullshit.
+1
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On December 02 2011 12:32 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:20 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 01:54 iamnotcreativeatall wrote:
Alright guys after reading a lot of responces i felt like I had to add my opinion to the topic, mainly because i read a lot of complete bullshit that really angers me.
First off, im a Protoss player and i am grandmaster on eu and na so this is not some crappy bronze-league-lol-just-make-phenix-and-you-can-defeat-mutalisks opinion. I will only talk about pvz here, because i dont think you should claim anything about balance if you arent at least somewhat good in the matchup.
So lets start with my opinion about mutalisks play, I think they are overpowered or to strong or however you want to call it. They are not completly broken, i actually manage to win a lot of games vs mutalisks, but every time i do so i either got lucky or i simply played signifficantly better than my opponent. I say mutalisk play instead of simply mutalisks on porpuse, because a unit alone is never overpowered. No its the race or the whole playstyle that is.
Now lets list the problem i and other protosses have with mutalisks.
-They keep you in base. You simply cant leave your base without taking heavy losses and the zerg can simply fly back to help defend their base, so your push becomes useless. also you always hit into a wall of 8+ spinecrawler and you bases become vunerabel to ling counter attacks
-you cant expand. you simply cant. On some maps you can get a third, on some maps (taldarim) not. a 4th is always impossible to get.
-the damage you get. you will always receive damage, because you have to spread out your buildings and even with cannons there will always be something that they can get.
-They are free to expand. because you cant leave your base zergs can always expand everywhere
-They can deal with harass. Warpprism play is really hard when mutalisks are out, because you will lose the warpprism and all the units in it.
-Now comes the worst part. They can basetrade EVERY! SINGLE! TIME!. It doesnt matter how much of an army you have, as a protoss you WILL lose basetrades. that comes down to the mobility the zerg have, they can simple expand everywhere while you cant. and you always have to stick your army together, while they can split. if you split they focus the weaker part of your army and it dies.
Now lets see what protoss has for options and units.
-blindly going 2 stargate on 2 base. i did this before aiganst players i know would go muta, and its a freewin for me. But its a complet allin and nothing i would really like to stick to, as i die if its anything but mutalisks
-1 stargate harass into normal play. you wont get enough phenix to deal with the mutalisks, adding another stargate takes too long and you dont get enough pfenix out in time.
-standart robo play: leads into basetrade scenario. you die.
-archons: they are to slow and to short ranged to do anything. they can be used to defend but youll lose in basetrade
-stalker: good to defend but you cant leave your base with them, because if you encouter lings with zergs mutalisks you die. stalker focus ground units over air units.
-ht: they are good to scare the zerg and buy some seconds, but their storms wont kill the mutas unless the zerg is bad
-phenix: unless you start with 2 stargates you dont get enough of them. they are the only unit who can deal with larger mutalisk numbers and you dont get them in large nummer. sucks.
Well i guess thats about it. feel free to give me any advice, but after i read a lot of the statements here i doubt any of you can offer me good advice. if you want to tell me things like ololo-just-go-blink-around-his-spines or hurr-mutas-only-beat-stalker-on-90+-mutas or zergs-just-got-creative-by-making-mutas-now-its-your-turn-to-be-creative-and-come-up-with-a-decent-solution you dont need to answer me. its like telling a terran to go mass vikings vs mutas. If you still can help me i would appreciate it. So I think you are pretty much right nearly everything you write, but I would like to ask you some questions here: 1) The international winrates in PvZ were 57:43 before mutalisks got popular and even with mutalisk play starting in october the winrate hasn't changed for that month. (though I think we will have to wait for the november winrates to really see the impact of muta play). But this suggests, that Zerg was already favored in this matchup and in my opinion it is rather "just another way" to kill Protoss that has a deeper reason than "the mutalisk vs Protoss". do you agree on this? 2) Do you feel like Protoss really have figuered "the best way" to deal with mutalisks? Because we still see a lot of different approaches from a lot of players (from mediocre things like the "stormtemplar or archon" - debate to specific timing attacks and double stargate preventive or reactive play) it often feels to me like the Protoss players often just don't really have a clue how to react to them to start with, while I feel like every prolevel terran just knows how to play vs mutalisks and ususally can just point at certain events in a game where he says: "that's what I did wrong". 3) I know this is just my theory - and I'm not a protoss player, only master zerg, maybe platinum protoss ^^ - but for me it always seems like Protoss FFE vs 3base play relies on doing damage and then expanding again, no matter what a zerg does. In my opinion this is always the defining moment in the game if the mutaplay will (statistically speaking) work or not. I don't know... but for me this feels like nothing has really changed apart from zerg now not going infestor/broodlord after this, but muta/ling and in both scenarios only losing when he screws up (because he has a rather big ecnomic advantage from having up to 50% more income for quite some minutes at the time when zerg has well saturated 3bases and protoss not even starting his third yet). And now my question? Don't you think that you're still facing the same problem like before mutalisks --> taking the third too late? (no matter if it is doable or not, just from a theoretical point) To exaggerate on this: PvZ was Protoss favored as long as it was 2base vs 2base play (up to 57:43 for Protoss). TvZ is a game on even bases (most of the time - some styles like ling+upgrades get faster thirds and fourths but sacrifice all tech for it) until the zerg gets his 4th up and this matchup has never been zerg favored (in fact it is the only matchup that always had one race - terran - being slightly favored over the other race, independent of the metagame). 4) don't you think that mutaplay being viable/balanced is very mapdepend? (just like small maps favor terran, maps with huge airspaces around bases and long ground distances favor mutalisks) I don't know, but generally speaking, I think zerg is favored in this matchup with or without mutalisks (in the current metagame), it's rather just that mutalisks really let you "feel" this, because in a deathball vs broodlords (of bigger zerg economy) game it often comes down to protoss having the "coinflip" possibility of winning the game by only 1time not screwing up while zerg screws up. Really good points. 1) It seems to me winrates are too broad. Protoss could win 70% of the total games, but muta builds win 100% of the time they are used. It would be nice to see a "shift" in the win loss, but without details it's kind of pointless. If the protoss metagame was to all in before the mutas pop for instance won't tell you if there is an issue with mutas. It'll just "look" like a lot of protoss 2 base plays. (naniwa anyone?) 2) I think generally speaking protoss vs ground based zerg armies work fine due to the punching power of immortals, FF control, colossus and zealots all working really well vs all ground options for zerg. The part where things go bad are when flying units come into play. be it brood lords or mutalisk things get difficult. Broodlords can be dealt with by the mothership, terrain use and blink or voidrays. Is the weak point the lack of carrier use? If you remove the colossus from the ground force suddenly the ground battle becomes a nightmare. 3) And yes, FFE without pressure is a bad build. it's just bad. most zergs now park an OL on the attack path and get 2 lings for scouting then just macro like crazy. if a protoss isn't doing something really agressive as soon as possible they are in big trouble. Personally I think the problem stems from the inabilty for protoss to do a gasless expand and not just die to ranged units. To gasless expand you must have a forge and it's hard to attack with cannons. The "problem" would be solved by making cannons require gateway instead of forge, but that creates it's own problems. As it is the time between "showing" a FFE to when you can do any sort of attack at all it too long. 4) I don't think the map matters. Once the mutas are up in "enough" numbers you're screwed. Some maps it's harder for zerg to stay alive long enough to get enough mutas, but I once they are up I can't think of a single map which would be "bad" for mass muta.
1) I guess that is kind of my point... 90% of the time Protoss is at least behind when mutalisks appear in the matchup, so it is kind of hard to point out if the unit is the problem. (kind of like bioplay becomes viable against banelings the moment terran has an early advantage, because then you can trade all day and zerg can't catch up - SCfou style)
2) yes, but on the other hand you have to admit that protoss ONLY chance to win a 2base vs 3base into expanding late "macro" game is to solely focus on ground superiority units like sentries and colossi (and to a lesser extend immortals and zealots). That's in my opinion the reason why mutalisks got popular again in the first place.
3) Well, I don't think so... Terrans play without pressure a lot of times against zerg and are simply starting thirds between 6-7mins adn fly them out ~10mins, which makes them keep up economically without doing damage. So imo the main question of this matchup should be "how does Protoss keep up without pressuring".
Anything else usually looks to me like 1-2 attacks that either do HUGE damage and kind of win protoss the game or they don't do any damage at all and Protoss is ultimately behind. An even situation is hardly ever possible (and really hard to identify) - that's a good tool to have to keep the zerg honest (like marine/tank and double reactored factory and 2port banshee after expand in TvZ), but what you really want to do in XvZ is either stay on lower tech and get a faster third (like a zerg) or get on high tech really fast of less economy. The current FFE metagame does neither (and maybe can't do either).
4) That's just not true.
Maps without bigger air areas all around the bases give you up to 50% less surface for mutalisks to attack, so unit positioning is way easier and damage received way lower.
Maps without good 4th and/or 5th bases make expanding while harassing extremly difficult for zerg, as dts, warpins and blinkstalkers have an easy time sniping those expansions
Close rushdistances make you less stalkerdependend speed dependend and colossi, HT and immortals become way better in a basetrade scenario. Furthermore zerg has to play more defensive in the first place which makes stalling out to high supply better.
Maps without triangular base setup "slow down" mutaharass.
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On December 02 2011 03:03 Carapas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:16 Cillas wrote:
i got a solution, its scary and very experimental, as far as i know, it wouldnt change at all in tvz, maybe some in zvz but in pvz without breaking alot.
Make Muta Ground attack only, this seems strange and many Zerg would complain but what may will happen
TvZ - Terran almost never really answer with air to muta, maybe some vikings but this would make the matchup more dimensional, because muta are faster
ZvZ - The only real situation that would change is muta against muta, this may decrease the muta to a period harass low count unit but is that so bad at all?
PvZ - The Toss now can answer with phoenix to muta harass, it even would make it risky for the zerg to mass just to 40+ muta and then loose it all to 6 or 7 phoenix -> gives the matchup more dimension.
Anything else (change to damage, hp, bounce), would be to much (esp. in the tvz matchup). This even would deny the need for the tempest.
/discuss
Are you dumb or what??? This would broke the entire Zerg metagame. ZvT would switch to only infestors and would be extremely predictable, in ZvP Void ray phoenix would become quite strong since zerg doesn't have a really good anti-air besides infestors so the matchup would be dull and finally ZvZ would be the fucking derpest matchup ever... Rush lair go spire and then muta ling base race both sides? Herp derp since no one can kill the other guy mutas it would be like a banshee vs banshee build without marines.
ever heard of corrupters? ever heard of hydra? y Zerg can only deal with Air with the specially designed anti air unit muta. haha.
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On December 02 2011 18:19 Cillas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:03 Carapas wrote:On December 02 2011 02:16 Cillas wrote:
i got a solution, its scary and very experimental, as far as i know, it wouldnt change at all in tvz, maybe some in zvz but in pvz without breaking alot.
Make Muta Ground attack only, this seems strange and many Zerg would complain but what may will happen
TvZ - Terran almost never really answer with air to muta, maybe some vikings but this would make the matchup more dimensional, because muta are faster
ZvZ - The only real situation that would change is muta against muta, this may decrease the muta to a period harass low count unit but is that so bad at all?
PvZ - The Toss now can answer with phoenix to muta harass, it even would make it risky for the zerg to mass just to 40+ muta and then loose it all to 6 or 7 phoenix -> gives the matchup more dimension.
Anything else (change to damage, hp, bounce), would be to much (esp. in the tvz matchup). This even would deny the need for the tempest.
/discuss
Are you dumb or what??? This would broke the entire Zerg metagame. ZvT would switch to only infestors and would be extremely predictable, in ZvP Void ray phoenix would become quite strong since zerg doesn't have a really good anti-air besides infestors so the matchup would be dull and finally ZvZ would be the fucking derpest matchup ever... Rush lair go spire and then muta ling base race both sides? Herp derp since no one can kill the other guy mutas it would be like a banshee vs banshee build without marines. ever heard of corrupters? ever heard of hydra? y Zerg can only deal with Air with the specially designed anti air unit muta. haha.
I have no problem with it, just make stalkers and marines lose their antiair attack
/discuss
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What I don't like what mutas do in TvZ ( I am R5 PLAT terran player from EU) is that they force me in to 2 base situations where when I grab the 3rd, it's much harder for me to hold because I can't be aggressive while zergy has mutas. I have to struggle to keep 3 base. I have to split my marines and thors around my bases and hold off waves of mutas while losing workers and turrets. Zerg plats love their mutas. They make 30+ every single time (this normally comes after a 2 base roach/mass zergling play) Sounds like fun? It isn't :/ I am stuck in my base due to huge zerg aggression (if the zerg guy plays it right). Mutas force to me to think other strategies, which include killing the zerg player b4 he gets mutas. I have to play my top game to win, while I feel the zerg just pops his mutas in my 3rd/main every once in a while and A moves with his banelings and zerglings and then mutas.
If the defence of my 3 bases is not flawless, along with my marine micro when i finally push out, I have lost. It makes for a very intense matchup where my defensive skills are constantly being tested (anyone who plays terran knows how micro intensive marine tank pushes are). Sure I do two pronged drop harasses in the midgame, but it's so easy for zerg player to pick off with mutas or defend with speedlings & spines. My helions are quite weak late game, unless I move out with literally 10. But then I am losing so much, without a gurantee of doing any dmg and when the mutas find the helions, it's goodbye 1000 minerals.
How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around? And for those of u say, oh u shouildnt allow ur zerg player to get that. For me that means making a 8-9 min marine tank push or some kind of slightly cheesy 1 base play.
Mutas give air control to zerg, and then terran loses all harass possiblities. Banshees, drophips etc. Muta is so cost effective harass with proper control, whereas my dropships getting sniped off are not. I have to literally send 3 dropships simultaneously to different locations do any kind of cost effective dmg. While this does work sometimes, it's such a gamble and really drains my APM. Mutas are not OP, but the way they are being used is kinda silly i.e. spam mutas (like literally 30), make mass banelings and zerglings and win or tech up to hive and have a good winrate against plat/diamond terrans (there is overrepresentation of zerg in diamond and lower).
What are my choices? Defend like a friggin Thorzain for 20 mins and force myself to play perfectly, or wait...hmm that bunker rush or cheesy 1 base play does sound good now  2 port banshee anyone? YES PLZ!
Rant over
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On December 02 2011 18:58 KingPwny wrote:What I don't like what mutas do in TvZ ( I am R5 PLAT terran player from EU) is that they force me in to 2 base situations where when I grab the 3rd, it's much harder for me to hold because I can't be aggressive while zergy has mutas. I have to struggle to keep 3 base. I have to split my marines and thors around my bases and hold off waves of mutas while losing workers and turrets. Zerg plats love their mutas. They make 30+ every single time (this normally comes after a 2 base roach/mass zergling play) Sounds like fun? It isn't :/ I am stuck in my base due to huge zerg aggression (if the zerg guy plays it right). Mutas force to me to think other strategies, which include killing the zerg player b4 he gets mutas. I have to play my top game to win, while I feel the zerg just pops his mutas in my 3rd/main every once in a while and A moves with his banelings and zerglings and then mutas. If the defence of my 3 bases is not flawless, along with my marine micro when i finally push out, I have lost. It makes for a very intense matchup where my defensive skills are constantly being tested (anyone who plays terran knows how micro intensive marine tank pushes are). Sure I do two pronged drop harasses in the midgame, but it's so easy for zerg player to pick off with mutas or defend with speedlings & spines. My helions are quite weak late game, unless I move out with literally 10. But then I am losing so much, without a gurantee of doing any dmg and when the mutas find the helions, it's goodbye 1000 minerals. How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around? And for those of u say, oh u shouildnt allow ur zerg player to get that. For me that means making a 8-9 min marine tank push or some kind of slightly cheesy 1 base play. Mutas give air control to zerg, and then terran loses all harass possiblities. Banshees, drophips etc. Muta is so cost effective harass with proper control, whereas my dropships getting sniped off are not. I have to literally send 3 dropships simultaneously to different locations do any kind of cost effective dmg. While this does work sometimes, it's such a gamble and really drains my APM. Mutas are not OP, but the way they are being used is kinda silly i.e. spam mutas (like literally 30), make mass banelings and zerglings and win or tech up to hive and have a good winrate against plat/diamond terrans (there is overrepresentation of zerg in diamond and lower). What are my choices? Defend like a friggin Thorzain for 20 mins and force myself to play perfectly, or wait...hmm that bunker rush or cheesy 1 base play does sound good now 2 port banshee anyone? YES PLZ! Rant over
replay...
For me this sounds like you lose way too much stuff against earky roach/ling (semiallin)attacks or some stuff is missing... It's pretty simply. A roach/ling or ling/bling attack delays mutalisks at least for another 1-2min. (so the first should pop between 11:30 and 13mins)
At that time you should have 3bases stim, shields 5+ tanks and more than enough marines to defend every base against mutalisks if you defended well and DID NOT do a "standard tank/marine"-push, which is nothing less than a semiallin and the punishing strategy for it is mass mutalisks.
And no, you are not supposed to put pressure on a zerg that goes for mass mutalisk play in the midgame. He won't have hive tech in time and your maxed tank/marine/medivac army should beat his maxed mutalisk/ling/bling force IF you did take a reasonable third and don't keep on losing stuff all game long. In this mass mutalisk situation the pressure is on the zerg to do damage... I know it is kind of hard to understand every detail of the metagame, but the moment terran is on 3base vs 3base against zerg, he is allowed to sit back and max out if the zerg does not go broodlords rather fast, while when a zerg does something greedy it is on the terran to do damage(early third + fast mutalisks a tank/marine push is one of the better choices to outright punish it - that's why most terrans open hellions, they give you the scouting information for these things and furthermore prevent a third base and creep spread until the time mutalisks are out IN A MUTALISK STRATEGY! In another strategy the early third and killing off the for hellions costinefficiently with zerglings is quite viable)
Btw here is the global race distribution per league:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Really not an overrepresentation, though one of the (slightly) better represented races
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On December 02 2011 18:58 KingPwny wrote:What I don't like what mutas do in TvZ ( I am R5 PLAT terran player from EU) is that they force me in to 2 base situations where when I grab the 3rd, it's much harder for me to hold because I can't be aggressive while zergy has mutas. I have to struggle to keep 3 base. I have to split my marines and thors around my bases and hold off waves of mutas while losing workers and turrets. Zerg plats love their mutas. They make 30+ every single time (this normally comes after a 2 base roach/mass zergling play) Sounds like fun? It isn't :/ I am stuck in my base due to huge zerg aggression (if the zerg guy plays it right). Mutas force to me to think other strategies, which include killing the zerg player b4 he gets mutas. I have to play my top game to win, while I feel the zerg just pops his mutas in my 3rd/main every once in a while and A moves with his banelings and zerglings and then mutas. If the defence of my 3 bases is not flawless, along with my marine micro when i finally push out, I have lost. It makes for a very intense matchup where my defensive skills are constantly being tested (anyone who plays terran knows how micro intensive marine tank pushes are). Sure I do two pronged drop harasses in the midgame, but it's so easy for zerg player to pick off with mutas or defend with speedlings & spines. My helions are quite weak late game, unless I move out with literally 10. But then I am losing so much, without a gurantee of doing any dmg and when the mutas find the helions, it's goodbye 1000 minerals. How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around? And for those of u say, oh u shouildnt allow ur zerg player to get that. For me that means making a 8-9 min marine tank push or some kind of slightly cheesy 1 base play. Mutas give air control to zerg, and then terran loses all harass possiblities. Banshees, drophips etc. Muta is so cost effective harass with proper control, whereas my dropships getting sniped off are not. I have to literally send 3 dropships simultaneously to different locations do any kind of cost effective dmg. While this does work sometimes, it's such a gamble and really drains my APM. Mutas are not OP, but the way they are being used is kinda silly i.e. spam mutas (like literally 30), make mass banelings and zerglings and win or tech up to hive and have a good winrate against plat/diamond terrans (there is overrepresentation of zerg in diamond and lower). What are my choices? Defend like a friggin Thorzain for 20 mins and force myself to play perfectly, or wait...hmm that bunker rush or cheesy 1 base play does sound good now 2 port banshee anyone? YES PLZ! Rant over
watch Leenock vs MVP GSL Semifinals Game 1 (you can watch Game 1 for free on GOM TV).
MVP gets:
a) 4 missile turrets on every mineral line
b) a lot more thors than just one or two
What happens? Muta harass does zero damage, also constantly dropping on both ends of the map still proves incredible effective, crippling Leenock's economy really hard (won't spoil the result, go watch the match).
Basically, as soon as MVP had 3+ thors and his turrets, the mutas became sacrificial units to kill few vikings and clean up half of the drops (while on the other side of the map the second drop usually still did great damage)
So you CAN shut down mutas completely and you don't have to be MVP to do so, just get the turrets and thors out. It is like terran player going for mass blue flame hellions and zerg player refusing to stray from his ling-only composition, it's not gonna work.
For PvZ, i feel like protoss is just too greedy while not being greedy enough:
I have rarely ever seen a protoss get 4-6 cannons on each mineral line plus at least one archon/HT with storm.
They stop at 2, then 12 mutas fly in, kill the two cannons and protoss curses imbalance. Furthermore, since protoss have to sit at home with their army to defend their undefended Nexi, they could not get a third up. Just get a ton of cannons at your third, and without broodlords or many banelings zerg should not be able to take out your third (assuming you warp in sentries if necessary to FF). And yes, this cuts into your army, but as long as you have forcefields/archons/HT with storm/upgrade advantage on zealots (anything of those will do against muta ling (bling)), zerg usually will still have the weaker army in a direct confrontation.
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How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around?
30 Mutas is NOT midgame ffs...
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EPT
