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+ Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 04:48 Big J wrote:On December 02 2011 23:00 KingPwny wrote:Btw here is the global race distribution per league: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allReally not an overrepresentation, though one of the (slightly) better represented races Well call it what you want. There are more zergs in plat/diamond  Ty for the advice, I'll def check out the replays where I lost. I think I got impatient and tried to push out too early without enough base defence. It just frustrates me I have to sit in my own base for many minutes, and can't really expand. well, the point is, that in a well balanced game it often becomes like that and it isn't less frustrating as a zerg to crush some tank/marine push and then you know you're far ahead and still know you will have to play for another 7-8mins at least if your opponent plays safe until you have a reasonable chance to push (with broodlords) and so you have to take 2-3 expansions until that time and build up a certain mutacount to be safe and still just defend against drops because you can't attack into a sieged position... Trust me, I threw SO MANY games away just by going for impatient baneling busts with 50% more supply... See it as part of being in a higher league: you have less options, because your opponents are good! Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 01:36 GreEny K wrote:
I may be in the minority here, but I do think that mutas can be OP in ZvT depending on the situation. I'm a Protoss player, so this is all observation. I notice that if a zerg and terran trade armies and the terran loses enough units, the zerg will mass muta and then go from base to base and wreck everything. And at that point the terran cannot rebuild units quickly enough to effectively deal with the muta, as there are too many.
I'n ZvP, it is a pain to deal with muta harass, and mass ling/ muta is definitely difficult to deal with but it is not impossible. I dont play terran, but it looks like muta are pretty strong in that matchup, pvz... not as much. substitute mutalisk with stalker, marine, tank, colossus, void ray, infestor or broodlord and it will always be the same... Certain units really put the hurt on the other player at least in sepcific matchups and every race has some of them. Mutalisks are one of them, but if you ever saw a good blinkstalker play in PvZ off even supply (so the protoss has an advantage), it becomes close to impossible to ever kill this army off as long as protoss keeps on engaging, because 80supply blink stalkers > 80 supply of any zerg army composition that has neither mass infestor or mass broodlords (which are both not viable in a disadvantage situation, due to costs) The same is true for tank/marine: If zerg screws up one engagement, he has to send wave and wave again against the same army until it dies (if it even dies) just to get crushed by a follow up evensized push. It's a simple thing: you screw up, you are in trouble! Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 22:57 KingPwny wrote:On December 02 2011 20:26 Velr wrote:How am I supposed to put pressure on the zerg in the mid game with 30 mutas flying around? 30 Mutas is NOT midgame ffs... How am I supposed to put pressure on zerg taking base after base, with 12 mutas flying around in the midgame? Well then don't. Noone apart from some TL scrubs is telling you that you must put pressure on a zerg... If Zerg opens any form of reasonable with mutalisks (2base, 3rd base not finishing before mutalisks pop), it will take him to around the 12min mark to hit his 70-80 drone count. At that time you should have 3-4OCs at 3bases with ~60scvs+mules. Congratulations, you're even in ecnomy without ever attacking. People really have to get over the "you have to do pressure against zerg" stuff. It's simply wrong. It has to be called "you have to do pressure against ANY macroing opponent, or play a build that macros itself!". (though I'm not sure if for a protoss player such builds are really viable... at least there are hardly any players around that play such stuff)
Well I guess I can try and macro harder. I just feel that when a zerg reaches a critical amount of queens and hatches (say 4-5 while I'm on 3 base, going on 4) He can drone pump like 25 drones on 1 round and remake drones no matter whatever mineral line harass I do. I know terran is more cost effective, but it's such a uphill battle that I prefer just being more offensive then. I try to avoid letting the zerg get to 4-5 base, even if that means I ahve to trade some units to do that in TvZ. I am much more comfortable trying to deny a 3rd expo of zerg, but that usually coincides with mutas popping, which makes it problematic (do I defend at home or move out and deny zergy expos).
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On December 03 2011 00:59 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:09 Go1den wrote:
Do you also think of imbalance when a Protoss loses against Roaches despite having Immortals/Colossi/Stalker?
I bet you don't.
What does this even mean? The best Protoss player in the world right now can't hold off mutas with the "proper" counters. You can come up with a better playground comeback than that. Try harder. LiquidHero is the best protoss in the world?You gotta be joking me. Hero did not play well in that game against crazymoving and crazy had great mutalisk control and severely crippled hero economy on 2 bases.Hero still made that game look close eventhough crazy still commited to mutas at late game when he should have transitioned to broodlords ultras or infestor. Please dun talk shit and say hero is the best protoss in the world right now.He is one of the TOP protoss but certainly not the best although his play looks really solid.People make mistakes dumbass.
Thanks for the mature response.
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On December 03 2011 01:36 GreEny K wrote:
I may be in the minority here, but I do think that mutas can be OP in ZvT depending on the situation. I'm a Protoss player, so this is all observation. I notice that if a zerg and terran trade armies and the terran loses enough units, the zerg will mass muta and then go from base to base and wreck everything. And at that point the terran cannot rebuild units quickly enough to effectively deal with the muta, as there are too many.
I'n ZvP, it is a pain to deal with muta harass, and mass ling/ muta is definitely difficult to deal with but it is not impossible. I dont play terran, but it looks like muta are pretty strong in that matchup, pvz... not as much.
I have lost a tonne of my games in the way you described. Aka, that I lose a critical mass of marines and Thors, and the zerg goes on a rampage wrecking my 3rd and 2nd. If I lose lots of tanks, but have loads of marines, then he goes mass speedling baneling and cleans up my push. It's these clever tech switches that kill my push, esp in the late game. I don't know what is OP or not (I am too unskilled to know that being in R5 EU plat), but I do know that I need to defend perfectly against mutas with turrets thors and marines or it's simply GG in late game. Several zergs take advantage of this. E.g LEt's say I make 4 turrets in each base (Like some of u are suggesting) and several thors (which eat up my gas and six food per thor) and zergy only makes 8 mutas and then transitions into infestor and then to Hive tech. Then I have already invested into 12 turrets and can't move out really to punish the tech up. And that's where I lose my games, either I undermake turrets (usually the case) and have to rely on marine/thor or I turtle too hard, and zergy gets to Hive tech while I'm still turtling and where I lose many games. (Yes I know Ghosts are good, but they require a lotta micro, and doing marine tank takes a lotta micro in the first place, making it harder to use ghosts.) So ye that can be a lil frustrating, and it's like blizz wants you to jump in skill level suddenly. Cos it's hard to use my low APM (between 60-70 average in TvZ) and then do all the things described aka make good turret placement, figure out do I need 2 or 4 turrets pr base, how many thors?, is the zerg teching?, and all the time I hear day9 saying poke and prod with ur helions and do drops, while I have to macro and micro while doing pushes and getting the proper upgrades & units. I mean did they make terran for koreans, or us simple foreigner noobies? I think you have to have a lil korean in you to play this matchup 
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On December 03 2011 17:18 Go1den wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 00:59 FakeDeath wrote:On December 02 2011 00:09 Go1den wrote:
Do you also think of imbalance when a Protoss loses against Roaches despite having Immortals/Colossi/Stalker?
I bet you don't.
What does this even mean? The best Protoss player in the world right now can't hold off mutas with the "proper" counters. You can come up with a better playground comeback than that. Try harder. LiquidHero is the best protoss in the world?You gotta be joking me. Hero did not play well in that game against crazymoving and crazy had great mutalisk control and severely crippled hero economy on 2 bases.Hero still made that game look close eventhough crazy still commited to mutas at late game when he should have transitioned to broodlords ultras or infestor. Please dun talk shit and say hero is the best protoss in the world right now.He is one of the TOP protoss but certainly not the best although his play looks really solid.People make mistakes dumbass. Thanks for the mature response.
We are here to discuss things in a friendly way There is no need to call out a fellow TLer names and such. We all have our opnion, and can argue and defend our opnions (resulting in a great discussion) with no need for name calling etc.
Just my two cents
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makes cannons do area of effect damage against air, that fixes mutas vs protoss a bit
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On December 02 2011 23:02 KingPwny wrote:
For PvZ, i feel like protoss is just too greedy while not being greedy enough:
I have rarely ever seen a protoss get 4-6 cannons on each mineral line plus at least one archon/HT with storm.
They stop at 2, then 12 mutas fly in, kill the two cannons and protoss curses imbalance. Furthermore, since protoss have to sit at home with their army to defend their undefended Nexi, they could not get a third up. Just get a ton of cannons at your third, and without broodlords or many banelings zerg should not be able to take out your third (assuming you warp in sentries if necessary to FF). And yes, this cuts into your army, but as long as you have forcefields/archons/HT with storm/upgrade advantage on zealots (anything of those will do against muta ling (bling)), zerg usually will still have the weaker army in a direct confrontation.
Hahahah LOL at your ignorance !
The problem with Protoss building 4-6 cannon is that - it needs PYLONS! Not just that - the weak points are PYLONS- if you build 4 cannons 1 pylon it can be sniped = NOT ENOUGH PYLONS!
Note the difference!!! Missle turrets = $100 minerals, Cannons are = $150!! , Pylons = $100!
If you count 4 cannons + 2 pylons (min to avoid snipe) = $ 800!!! compares with 400 to Terrans! Not to mention - where are you going to place your 4 cannons and 2 pylons that covers the min line without blocking everything in the mineral line and disrupt mining significantly ?? You show me how!! Don't forget, if you spread your cannons too wide, mutas can still come in and snipe each one out one by one !
LOL!! HT with storms - yeah good luck catching mutas ball that sit still. Oh and if you miss that storm and ran out of energy - muta just wait 4s and come in to finish everything off ! You have better luck parking archons smack in the middle of mineral line with 2~3 cannons ..but still a huge investment.
User was banned for this post.
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I think mutas are too easily massed. If a player limits himself and says, "okay I'm only going to have 20-24 mutas at a time" I think they're manageable. They're annoying, but they're manageable.
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
In general it's really annoying to me that a regular army can't stand up to a harass unit. That you can harass, then bring your mutas back to deal with an attack and between those and lings you're fine is just silly.
I think they need to lose their glaive attack at least.
But the bigger issue to me is that if a player goes apeshit crazy and gets 40+ mutas...there's nothing to really do about it if you move out of your base and they're alive. And it's not like you can really say, "well just don't let him do that." Any zerg past the midgame can make tons of mutas if they want to. And sure, if you're protoss you can specifically build to counter mutas, but you're in an icky spot till they screw up and you kill all their mutas. Terran don't really even have that option, and they can't rebuild fast enough to deal with something like that.
At the same time, I don't want them to turn into a black and white unit. I think things like that are just terrible design. I don't want to play rock-paper-scissors. I just think they need to be limited a little better.
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On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
I think mutas are too easily massed. If a player limits himself and says, "okay I'm only going to have 20-24 mutas at a time" I think they're manageable. They're annoying, but they're manageable.
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
In general it's really annoying to me that a regular army can't stand up to a harass unit. That you can harass, then bring your mutas back to deal with an attack and between those and lings you're fine is just silly.
I think they need to lose their glaive attack at least.
But the bigger issue to me is that if a player goes apeshit crazy and gets 40+ mutas...there's nothing to really do about it if you move out of your base and they're alive. And it's not like you can really say, "well just don't let him do that." Any zerg past the midgame can make tons of mutas if they want to. And sure, if you're protoss you can specifically build to counter mutas, but you're in an icky spot till they screw up and you kill all their mutas. Terran don't really even have that option, and they can't rebuild fast enough to deal with something like that.
At the same time, I don't want them to turn into a black and white unit. I think things like that are just terrible design. I don't want to play rock-paper-scissors. I just think they need to be limited a little better.
You know, you're right.
I guess every pro zerg that doesn't go Muta/Ling in ZvP is terribly stupid, I mean why would they ignore OP unit? But they must not have a good enough understanding of the game like TL posters do.
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On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
If this is your honest opinion then I don't know what to say other than that you're probably playing the wrong game.
If you build mass immortals I also have to build specifically for that, if you mass blink stalkers I have to build specifically for that, if you build zealot archon I have to build for that, if you're rushing out a critical mass of colossus I have to build for that. This is a game of scouting and reacting by building the correct set of units against the opponents while maintaining good economy and macro. If protoss is supposed to have 1 unit compo for everything in the zerg's arsenal then why the hell would zerg or protoss do anything else in any of their games??
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On December 13 2011 00:47 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
If this is your honest opinion then I don't know what to say other than that you're probably playing the wrong game. If you build mass immortals I also have to build specifically for that, if you mass blink stalkers I have to build specifically for that, if you build zealot archon I have to build for that, if you're rushing out a critical mass of colossus I have to build for that. This is a game of scouting and reacting by building the correct set of units against the opponents while maintaining good economy and macro. If protoss is supposed to have 1 unit compo for everything in the zerg's arsenal then why the hell would zerg or protoss do anything else in any of their games??
The issue isn't that they have to be countered, but he's arguing mutas need hardcounters because their softcounters aren't as effective. I don't know if I entirely agree, but that is a point you can make: there's a difference between tweaking a composition (T has a lot of marauders, I'll add more zealots to my composition) and having to build specifically due to one unit (oh, my opponent has X, better make Y or the game is over).
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I think mutas can be overpowered in certain situations when massed and used properly in zvp. this is mainly because mutas can just eat away while buying so much time because Protoss can't move out and if they do they lose a base trade. The only options are to wait for a maxed army by which time the Zerg has had the time have an Econ that allows let his mutas and lings die and remax with a better unit comp with a strong Econ behind meanwhile Protoss is Close to mined out and even if manages to push into the Zerg he can't keep reinforcing at the rate of the Zerg. at the same time Nerfing mutas hurts the meta game of Tvz way to much. I think blizzard knows this and really hasn't found a solution that doesn't break the game. One way or another a change is needed but I have no clue how it could be done
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On December 13 2011 00:47 lindn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
If this is your honest opinion then I don't know what to say other than that you're probably playing the wrong game. If you build mass immortals I also have to build specifically for that, if you mass blink stalkers I have to build specifically for that, if you build zealot archon I have to build for that, if you're rushing out a critical mass of colossus I have to build for that. This is a game of scouting and reacting by building the correct set of units against the opponents while maintaining good economy and macro. If protoss is supposed to have 1 unit compo for everything in the zerg's arsenal then why the hell would zerg or protoss do anything else in any of their games??
Did you actually read my post?
I didn't say, for MASS mutas.
It's stupid though that if you have the capacity to make ANY MUTAS AT ALL protoss has to completely change thier strategy and build to revolve around that one unit.
And actually I would argue against hard counters, but thier soft counters basically involve, "make EVERY soft counter to mutas just to counter mutas" at the moment, which is too far the other way.
On December 13 2011 00:42 Flonomenalz wrote:
You know, you're right.
I guess every pro zerg that doesn't go Muta/Ling in ZvP is terribly stupid, I mean why would they ignore OP unit? But they must not have a good enough understanding of the game like TL posters do.
did i say anything about, "oh her der if the pros were smart they'd all do this, o her der the pros are all wrong"? no. i didn't. so i dont know what the fuck you're talking about or responding to.
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As a protoss player, i never have problems against mass mutalisks in a straight up engagement, (archons / storm / carriers all good in large supply) if i havent lost to the harass already
the problem i, and other P have, is when large flocks of muta, and zerglings harass thinned out protoss armies, and static defense.
Unless HoTs muta defense is a tempest per base, and thats really effective, i dont see anything changing with this unit.
HOWEVER, i do feel the tempest is a much better capital ship
Carrier model is cool, but suffers a lot (like the BC) that when you have 3/0, theyre amazing, but at 0/0 the fact that they have 16 attacks, and your opponent is probly at 1-3 armor, they just suck at that stage
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On December 13 2011 00:36 Angel_ wrote:
I think mutas are too easily massed. If a player limits himself and says, "okay I'm only going to have 20-24 mutas at a time" I think they're manageable. They're annoying, but they're manageable.
It's a bit annoying to me that protoss have to specifically build FOR mutas, because a regular army just can't stand up to them.
In general it's really annoying to me that a regular army can't stand up to a harass unit. That you can harass, then bring your mutas back to deal with an attack and between those and lings you're fine is just silly.
I think they need to lose their glaive attack at least.
But the bigger issue to me is that if a player goes apeshit crazy and gets 40+ mutas...there's nothing to really do about it if you move out of your base and they're alive. And it's not like you can really say, "well just don't let him do that." Any zerg past the midgame can make tons of mutas if they want to. And sure, if you're protoss you can specifically build to counter mutas, but you're in an icky spot till they screw up and you kill all their mutas. Terran don't really even have that option, and they can't rebuild fast enough to deal with something like that.
At the same time, I don't want them to turn into a black and white unit. I think things like that are just terrible design. I don't want to play rock-paper-scissors. I just think they need to be limited a little better.
Yes the 100/100 Mutalisk is too easy to mass...
A normal protoss army of pure gateway units, blink stalkers can hold them off easily until you get appropriate tech. You know? The unit you always get in ZvP with an upgradeable ability in a building you always get because you need to research lvl 2 upgrades.
Once you get templar, they absolutely ruin mutaling, it's not even close. And removing their glaive attack? is that a serious suggestion or a troll, seriously just think before you post.
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Someone saw today MC - DRG? I don't know how a Protoss can expand, spread and manage better against mutas than that.. Really.
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Blizzard's solution might be similar to the way they nerfed Roach: increase the food cost by one. It would effectively allow Zerg to have some mutas for harass but if they go for higher numbers, the ground army suffers dramatically for it.
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wow battlehellions sure are tanky! mech is going to be so much better
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are they overpowered? no
are they annoying to deal with? naaaaaaaah /sarcasm
i'm not that good of a player, but dealing with mutas makes me wanna throw my monitor out of the window half the time (i'm toss).
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I don't understand why they won't increase the phoenix range by 1. It's not like corruptors aren't immediately available from the spire as well...
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On December 13 2011 01:08 Angel_ wrote:Did you actually read my post?
I didn't say, for MASS mutas.
It's stupid though that if you have the capacity to make ANY MUTAS AT ALL protoss has to completely change thier strategy and build to revolve around that one unit.
I actually find it untrue unless P is going for robotics-based ground domination or for a very spread-out expansion plan.
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EPT
